Oppo non Blu-ray

[jakester]

I am about ready to get a HD tv, one question I have is, some say when using an OPPO or any DVD player that supports 1080P with an HDMI port, Is the 1080P mode on a new DVD player real close to BluRay, I mnetioned I wanted to get a Blu Ray player, and a freind of mine quoted that 1080P is so close to BluRay it's hard to tell the difference, any comments or suggestions on a new dvd player

Chet

 

[Adam]

How large of a TV are you getting, and how far away will you be sitting?

I have a 50" widescreen 1080p TV, and I sit about 10' away. Some DVDs look pretty darn good when upscaled to 1080p...others don't. It depends on the source material. That said, 1080p source material on blu-ray makes a noticeable and positive difference in my case.

If you never see a blu-ray, then I bet you'll be happy with the upscaled DVDs. However, once you see a blu-ray disc, you'll want a player. I got a Panasonic DMP-BD60 for $200, and I think that it does a good job of upscaling DVDs in addition to being a blu-ray player.

 

[j_garcia]

If you get the Oppo 983 you will get basically the same upscaling as the BD player, but if you ask me, I'd just step up to Blu for the difference in price. The 980H upscales very well, but is not quite at the same level as the 983 IMO. Typical upscaling players will not give you 1080p that is "near" Blu-ray quality.

 

[jakester]

If you get the Oppo 983 you will get basically the same upscaling as the BD player, but if you ask me, I'd just step up to Blu for the difference in price. The 980H upscales very well, but is not quite at the same level as the 983 IMO. Typical upscaling players will not give you 1080p that is "near" Blu-ray quality.

Garcia

If I am reading right here on the web, has the 983 been replaced by the 980H, 90% as of now I will be using the player to watch DVD movies and I will be going to a HD tv in the next month or so, still looking around at TV's so far I am looking at the Samsung LED -LCD 46" tv, although my wife want a 50-55" any suggestions on some TV that will fit the bill, I was reading alot of users were liking the new Panasonic V series, we saw them at Sam's club and my wife thought it was the worst picture there of about 30 large screen tv's, there some Samsungs she liked.

Chet

 

[Adam]

Chet,

I'm pretty sure about the following: the 983 was discontinued, but it was not replaced by the 980. The 983 used the same Anchor Bay de-interlacing and scaling technology as the new BDP-83 universal player from Oppo, which people seem to think is a better system than what is used in the 980.

Adam

 

[PENG]

any comments or suggestions on a new dvd player

Once again, I would like to recommend the Toshiba XDE-500. I have both HDDVD and BD players that have the Anchor Bay and Reon processor in them. The XDE-500 beats them (non BR) in PQ. It may not be as good as the 983 but probably close.

I think you can get one for 79.99 or less. When you are ready to buy a BD player you can still use the cheap XDE to play your DVD discs, and use the BD player for BR discs only, saving unnecessary wear and tear on the more expensive machine.

By the way, if you are considering 46" and your wife wants a 55" may be you should split the difference and get a 50" Pioneer Kuro.

 

[Adam]

Once again, I would like to recommend the Toshiba XDE-500.

I'm always tempted when you mention that player, but the multiple reviews on Amazon about the player breaking down so quick sway me from buying it.

However, if the OP is willing to take that chance, it's currently only $64 on Amazon.

 

[PENG]

Thanks Adam, yes I am aware of those review, and have no ideas why. My XDE does have some pause here and there on occasions and with a couple of discs but nothing that cannot be overcome by pushing a couple of buttons. The PQ and SQ are superb.

 

[Pyrrho]

I am about ready to get a HD tv, one question I have is, some say when using an OPPO or any DVD player that supports 1080P with an HDMI port, Is the 1080P mode on a new DVD player real close to BluRay, I mnetioned I wanted to get a Blu Ray player, and a freind of mine quoted that 1080P is so close to BluRay it's hard to tell the difference, any comments or suggestions on a new dvd player

Chet

If you sit at a distance close enough to your set to see all of the resolution of 1080p, then no upconverted DVD is going to look close to a well made BD (Blu-ray) disc. I own an Oppo DV-983H, which is widely regarded as the best upconverting DVD player ever made, and I sit at a distance to see the resolution of 720p in all of its detail. It is easy to see the difference between a DVD on that and a BD. Basically, it is impossible to add detail that is not there. What you get with a well upconverted picture is a softness to the picture. Here you can look at some screenshots of demanding tests:

http://hometheater.about.com/od/dvdproductreviews/ig/OPPO-DV-983H-HQV-Test-Results/OPPO-DV-983H-Jaggies-1---1.htm


If, however, you sit far away, or have terrible eyesight, then you may not see any difference at all between an upconverted DVD and a BD. Here is a link to a chart to give you some ideas about what can be seen at different distances:

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/assets/download/0602_tech_talk2_large.jpg

http://s3.carltonbale.com/resolution_chart.html

See also:

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hitech/1137

http://carltonbale.com/2006/11/1080p-does-matter/

http://www.digital-digest.com/articles/HDTV_Viewing_Distance_Calculator_Guide_page1.html

http://www.digital-digest.com/articles/viewing_distance.php

So, as Adam already stated, it depends upon how big your TV is and how far away from it you watch it.

If money is tight, I recommend the Panasonic DMP-BD60 Blu-ray player (unless you need something that can do things this player cannot do), which can be had for about $200 delivered. Its upconversion is surprisingly good, and once you start buying BD discs, you will never want to go back to DVD anyway, if you are sitting close enough to your HDTV to make it worthwhile having an HDTV. See:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=598063&postcount=3

 

[jostenmeat]

I am about ready to get a HD tv, one question I have is, some say when using an OPPO or any DVD player that supports 1080P with an HDMI port, Is the 1080P mode on a new DVD player real close to BluRay, I mnetioned I wanted to get a Blu Ray player, and a freind of mine quoted that 1080P is so close to BluRay it's hard to tell the difference, any comments or suggestions on a new dvd player

Chet

As noted, it's all about the viewing angle. I propose that if you sit at the THX recommended angle, or closer, that even the best DVDs will look worse than the worst BDs (outside of excessive DNR/EE).

However, I would say, at best, only 1/50 AHers enjoy such an angle, and for the rest of the general population, I'd be surprised if it was any better than 1/500. Therefore, what your friend says is probably typical. Roseanne Barr and Megan Fox probably look just as good to me from a mile away. Ok, I exaggerate, nm.

These threads will burn up your modem, but they will show you controlled screen captures, comparing the two formats.

Monsters, Inc.(JPN) comparison *PIX*

How The West Was Won.

 

[Pyrrho]

I should have included this before.

Here is a link to a comparison of the relative sizes different formats could be if one is wanting equal clarity with them:

http://www.hdtvinfoport.com/images/ResolutCompBW.gif

The article from which the above appears:

http://www.hdtvinfoport.com/HDTV.html

There is more than 4 times the picture information in a 1080p picture than in a 480p picture, so the screen can be more than 4 times as big and have equal clarity.

A great upconverting DVD player cannot create detail that is not there, but it can prevent various problems in the upconversion process. In other words, with a great upconverting DVD player, the image will appear soft, but will not tend to have other problems, such as jagged lines, etc., that one often gets with bad upconversion.

Here is an example of moire in less than good upconversion:

http://z.about.com/d/hometheater/1/0/D/Z/racecarmoireexmaple.jpg

Here is an example of great upconversion:

http://hometheater.about.com/od/dvdproductreviews/ig/OPPO-DV-983H-HQV-Test-Results/OPPO-DV-983H-Moire.htm

Bigger:

http://z.about.com/d/hometheater/1/0/9/Z/moire1-1-800.jpg

Notice, in the first of these, the "curved lines" in the bleachers, that are a defect that is added by bad upconversion.

For more examples of differences between good and bad upconversion:

http://www.hqv.com/contentEngine/dspDocumentDownload.cfm?PCVID=6557af58-7e90-e2a3-bea3-f6ec25bf8781

The upshot is, there is a significant difference between good and bad upconversion, but even the best upconversion cannot compete with a true HD source. Bad upconversion adds defects and is soft; good upconversion is soft relative to an HD source, when viewed close enough to see the added detail of HD. A BD would have to either be made from a very poor source, or be incompetently mastered, in order to not be vastly better than any DVD on any upconverting player, when viewed close enough to see all of the added detail of HD.

 

[DaleAV]

If, however, you sit far away, or have terrible eyesight, then you may not see any difference at all between an upconverted DVD and a BD.

I think those charts apply mostly to 720p vs. 1080p. If you are talking about the difference between an upconverted DVD and HD...there is no contest, even at further distances. Your eyes would be wasted on HD if you can't tell that difference. I don't sit at the closer recommended distance to view 1080p. But even with my BDP83, as good as it is, uponverted DVDs never look like HD.

 

[Pyrrho]

I think those charts apply mostly to 720p vs. 1080p. If you are talking about the difference between an upconverted DVD and HD...there is no contest, even at further distances. Your eyes would be wasted on HD if you can't tell that difference. I don't sit at the closer recommended distance to view 1080p. But even with my BDP83, as good as it is, uponverted DVDs never look like HD.

The charts have information regarding DVD. And one uses the same line on the chart regardless of the quality of the upconvertor, because an upconvertor, no matter how good, does not add detail that is not there. And the calculator can be used for it as well.

(For the differences between good and bad upconversion, see http://www.hqv.com/contentEngine/dspDocumentDownload.cfm?PCVID=6557af58-7e90-e2a3-bea3-f6ec25bf8781. The differences, though often significant, are not differences of resolution.)

If one has 20/20 vision, one can see all of the detail of a DVD on a 50" TV at 16.55 feet. Sitting any closer than that, and one can see imperfections due to the low resolution. In other words, on a 50" TV, if you sit at 16.55 feet or further away, the resolution difference between BD and DVD will not be visible (in actual practice, of course, one might see a difference that has nothing to do with resolution, as two discs may be mastered differently, and so, for example, the colors in one could be brighter or there could be some other such difference that has nothing to do with the resolution). If you sit closer than 16.55 feet to a 50" 1080p TV and have 20/20 vision, you will be able to see a difference between a BD and DVD due to the resolution. Most people probably sit several feet closer than that, and if they don't, they may as well use a standard definition set. To see all of the resolution of a 50" 1080p set, one would need to sit no further than 6.5 feet, again, assuming one has 20/20 vision. With worse vision, one would need to sit closer than these distances to see the relevant detail, and how much closer will depend upon exactly how much worse than 20/20 one's vision is.

And, of course, you are right that most people do not sit close enough to their 1080p TVs to see all of the resolution that they are producing. If they are far enough away, then they may as well have a lower resolution set. In my case, I have a 768p 42" set, and I sit about 8' from it, which is about optimum for seeing all of the resolution it produces. If I had a 1080p set, it would need to be about 20" larger at that distance for me to see all of the detail that would then be possible. But then my upconverted DVDs would look even worse than they do now.

 

[DaleAV]

Of course, it IS a difference of resolution even with an upconverted signal. I should have restated that.

16.55' is well beyond a 'reasonable' viewing distance for a 50" screen, that most everything except a very poor image will look about the same.

Very good information, and certainly represents what most folks shopping for HDTV are totally clueless about. Of course, there is the slim chance of getting a salesperson that will educate them vs. misinform them.

 

[Pyrrho]

Of course, it IS a difference of resolution even with an upconverted signal. I should have restated that.

16.55' is well beyond a 'reasonable' viewing distance for a 50" screen, that most everything except a very poor image will look about the same.

Very good information, and certainly represents what most folks shopping for HDTV are totally clueless about. Of course, there is the slim chance of getting a salesperson that will educate them vs. misinform them.

Yes, 16.55' is well beyond a reasonable viewing distance for a 50" screen. What this shows is that most people will benefit greatly from a switch to BD from DVD, as they will be closer than that, even if they are not close enough to see all of the benefit, which, again, would require sitting no further than 6.5' if one has 20/20 vision. But in all of the distances closer than 16.55', some benefit would be apparent, with a greater benefit the closer one sits, up to 6.5'. And although one might think that this means that one should sit only 6.5' from the screen, it really depends upon what source material one is watching, and how unclear is acceptable to one. With DVDs, anything closer than 16.55' will reveal a lack of clarity, with it being more unclear the closer one is. So one needs to think about what will be viewed, and how much unclarity is acceptable. But if one were only going to watch BD discs, and if not too many people are going to watch at once, I would think that 6.5' would be ideal for a 50" 1080p TV. One would see all of the detail that is possible that way.

 

[08op]

so if i have a 780p/1080i 50" and i have a xde 500 upconverting dvd,and i sit 14 feet away, would it be right or just dumb to get a blueray player or should i wait till i get a 1080p tv. because between my 1080i and my buddies 1080p both with upconverts i see no difference at all between the two????

 

[j_garcia]

With a 1080i set, you will notice an improvement, but getting a decent 1080p TV to view in 1080p made a bigger difference to my eyes.

All upconverting players are NOT created equal, so just because you have any old player upscaling to 1080p does not mean you are getting the same results as a REON or Anchor Bay upscaling player.

 

[DaleAV]

You can sit 6.5' from a 50" screen and get every detail from a 1080p image.
Problem is, much of what many watch is mixed SD and HD material.
Many SD images are going to look pretty bad that close up.
I think most of us compromise and sit further back for everything.
I guess if you had a chair on rails you could make some quick adjustments either way.

 

[Pyrrho]

so if i have a 780p/1080i 50" and i have a xde 500 upconverting dvd,and i sit 14 feet away, would it be right or just dumb to get a blueray player or should i wait till i get a 1080p tv. because between my 1080i and my buddies 1080p both with upconverts i see no difference at all between the two????

If your vision is good, you will be able to see a difference between BD (Blu-ray) and your upconverting DVD player on your TV, because you can see all of the detail of a DVD on a 50" screen at 16.55 feet (if you have 20/20 vision). Though at 14 feet away from a 50" TV, you are not going to get a lot of benefit from HD sources, but there will be some benefit. At that distance, there is absolutely no need to have anything better than 720p. See:

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/assets/download/0602_tech_talk2_large.jpg

You can calculate things precisely at:

http://www.digital-digest.com/articles/viewing_distance.php

You would have to be closer than 9.75 feet away from a 50" TV to see more detail than 720p. In other words, at the distance you are talking about, you would get no improvement whatsoever from having a higher resolution TV than you have now (assuming that the new TV is also 50"). Of course, resolution is only one aspect of a TV, so it is possible that a different TV might look better, but it will not be because it has higher resolution.

In other words, it would make some sense for you to get a BD player, but there is absolutely no reason for you to get a 1080p TV if it is going to be only 50" and you are going to watch it at 14 feet away. You could go almost to a 72" TV, and at 14', it would not need to be more than 720p.

My advice is to sit closer to the TV, if you want to see all of the detail it delivers. But, of course, standard definition will look worse if you do.

 

[Pyrrho]

You can sit 6.5' from a 50" screen and get every detail from a 1080p image.
Problem is, much of what many watch is mixed SD and HD material.
Many SD images are going to look pretty bad that close up.
I think most of us compromise and sit further back for everything.
I guess if you had a chair on rails you could make some quick adjustments either way.

Yes, that is a problem. Another possible solution is to have two rows of seating, where you sit up front for HD, and sit in the second row for SD.