Phantom vs Less than ideal center

[septim]

Currently I have a 4 speaker setup with JTR Triple 12LFs as LR. These are easily the best speakers I've ever had and I don't feel like I'm missing anything. But I was researching phantom centers and found out that at least on SD DVDs Dolby has some kind of spec that forces DRC on to any downmix of 5.1 which can cause a loss of dynamics. DTS does not suffer this issue, and I've not been able to find if TrueHD does this either.

Basically I have not missed a center at all. I find I don't like it when all the dialogue is routed towards the center. I feel like the stereo frontstage is more realistic overall. That being said I've never had a 12LF as a center so I don't really know what that would sound like.

Another thing with a speaker this massive is that it would have to be horizontal on the floor angled up. Or about 20" off the ground and blocking part of my entertainment stand. And there's obviously the issue of money, these speakers are great values but still quite a bit for college kid who only works part time.

My fear is that I'll spend more money, add more clutter to my system and wind up not really caring for the result. What do you guys think?

 

[lsiberian]

Currently I have a 4 speaker setup with JTR Triple 12LFs as LR. These are easily the best speakers I've ever had and I don't feel like I'm missing anything. I have not missed a center at all. I find I don't like it when all the dialogue is routed towards the center. I feel like the stereo frontstage is more realistic overall.

The worst thing you can do is mess with a setup you already love.

It seems you have already decided in your mind that what you have is good enough and that you aren't missing anything.

Save your time and money by keeping what you have.

 

[jostenmeat]

Currently I have a 4 speaker setup with JTR Triple 12LFs as LR. These are easily the best speakers I've ever had and I don't feel like I'm missing anything. But I was researching phantom centers and found out that at least on SD DVDs Dolby has some kind of spec that forces DRC on to any downmix of 5.1 which can cause a loss of dynamics. DTS does not suffer this issue, and I've not been able to find if TrueHD does this either.

Basically I have not missed a center at all. I find I don't like it when all the dialogue is routed towards the center. I feel like the stereo frontstage is more realistic overall. That being said I've never had a 12LF as a center so I don't really know what that would sound like.

Another thing with a speaker this massive is that it would have to be horizontal on the floor angled up. Or about 20" off the ground and blocking part of my entertainment stand. And there's obviously the issue of money, these speakers are great values but still quite a bit for college kid who only works part time.

My fear is that I'll spend more money, add more clutter to my system and wind up not really caring for the result. What do you guys think?

IMO, the ideal HT always has a center speaker. But, heck, you're a college kid! With JTR 12"! Ohhh, I'm so sorry for you....

Anyways, the coaxial design is a better one for the use of horiz center, as the point where lobing occurs will be considerably lower.

If you are a college kid, you probably live in a more modest space, and I just wonder just how overkill the 12s are. Or what I really am wondering is how hard it would be to trade/swap the two 12s for a set of 3 Triple 8s. However, I'm pretty clueless on the pricing differences. That would also make for a smaller center, helping your cause.

Ideally, your center would be more than 20" off the ground, as I believe I've read on a couple occasions that at least a couple of feet would be nice. The closer it is the floor, the more midbass peaking you might suffer, but this can be ameliorated to some extent with treatments nearby (and on the floor). My center speaker is very close to floor, and while a serious compromise on one hand, there's no way I would give it up. Not a chance in hell. My 2 cents.

 

[adwilk]

A LOT of people will argue that the center channel is the most underrated speaker concerning HT applications. I definitely did not think so when I had less the "HiFi" center channels. But adding a nice one made me a believer. Properly integrating a center channel can make a HUGE difference in the front stage. Localized dialogue is a property of a poor center channel integration, not a property of a center channel in general. I would imagine that having a matching LCR setup would make you very very happy in the HT and MultiChannel music arenas, but then again, you're already happy. You could also use the triple 8 as a satisfactory center with your 12's.

I'll be curious if RMK chimes in here. Perhaps he's listened to his both ways.

 

[j_garcia]

I am a proponent of center channels, but then I am also able to have mine exactly where I want it In your case, I'd probably stick with phantom.

 

[Pyrrho]

Currently I have a 4 speaker setup with JTR Triple 12LFs as LR. These are easily the best speakers I've ever had and I don't feel like I'm missing anything. But I was researching phantom centers and found out that at least on SD DVDs Dolby has some kind of spec that forces DRC on to any downmix of 5.1 which can cause a loss of dynamics. DTS does not suffer this issue, and I've not been able to find if TrueHD does this either.

Basically I have not missed a center at all. I find I don't like it when all the dialogue is routed towards the center. I feel like the stereo frontstage is more realistic overall. That being said I've never had a 12LF as a center so I don't really know what that would sound like.

Another thing with a speaker this massive is that it would have to be horizontal on the floor angled up. Or about 20" off the ground and blocking part of my entertainment stand. And there's obviously the issue of money, these speakers are great values but still quite a bit for college kid who only works part time.

My fear is that I'll spend more money, add more clutter to my system and wind up not really caring for the result. What do you guys think?

I think you should test the idea for yourself. If your rear speakers match your front speakers, go into the menu for your receiver, and shut off the surround speakers. Then, turn it off, and disconnect one of the rear speakers and put it up front as the center speaker. Position it as close as possible to the screen, preferably oriented identically as the front right and left speakers. Then balance the front three speakers. Then listen to some DVDs, and compare using all three front speakers with only using the right and left front speakers, and see if you like having a center channel or not.

If your rear speakers do not match the front, then, if your dealer allows you to try things at home, go get a matching speaker and try it with your system, comparing the sound of 4 channel versus 5 channel (or 4.1 versus 5.1).

I personally would rather have a center speaker than to have surrounds, but my opinion does not matter for what you should do. Try it and see if you like it.

I will say this, however: A phantom center can only work properly for one person on a couch; for everyone else, the phantom image will appear to come from the wrong place.

 

[septim]

My surrounds are a different brand. I was thinking of moving a 12LF into the position the center would be in then putting an RS850 where the 12LF usually goes. Obviously this would not be ideal but it would still give me an idea of the sound.

 

[lsiberian]

I think you should test the idea for yourself. If your rear speakers match your front speakers, go into the menu for your receiver, and shut off the surround speakers. Then, turn it off, and disconnect one of the rear speakers and put it up front as the center speaker. Position it as close as possible to the screen, preferably oriented identically as the front right and left speakers. Then balance the front three speakers. Then listen to some DVDs, and compare using all three front speakers with only using the right and left front speakers, and see if you like having a center channel or not.

If your rear speakers do not match the front, then, if your dealer allows you to try things at home, go get a matching speaker and try it with your system, comparing the sound of 4 channel versus 5 channel (or 4.1 versus 5.1).

I personally would rather have a center speaker than to have surrounds, but my opinion does not matter for what you should do. Try it and see if you like it.

I will say this, however: A phantom center can only work properly for one person on a couch; for everyone else, the phantom image will appear to come from the wrong place.

This isn't always the case Pyrrho. In fact in my phantom setup it didn't matter all that much.

To compensate for the center you can move the LR channels closer to the center axis as well.