In-Ceilings vs. Dipoles for surrounds

[snmhanson]

I am looking at some speakers to use as surrounds to go with Paradigm Studio fronts and center. I was for the most part stuck on the Studio dipole surrounds, however, they will have to me mounted a ways back (not directly to the side) of the listening area. Even at that the wall space is limited so I won't have much room to play around with them. I have recently been thinking that maybe a pair of ceiling speakers (probably SA-15R, maybe SA-15R30s) might work better as I could mount them directly to the sides or shifted just slightly back from the listening area. However, my dilema is that the wires for the speakers are in a soffit along each side of the room and the room is about 22' wide so the speakers would be about 20' apart from each other. Is that too far apart for side surrounds? Also, will it make a big difference that the speakers are pointed directly down at the ground versus the dipoles which would have been facing out towards the room? If in-ceilings wouldn't work as side surrounds how about rear surrounds for a 7.1 system where the speakers would be in back of the listener about the same distance that the fronts are in front of the listener?

Thanks for any advice,

Matt

 

[Robof83]

If sound quality is your primary concern, I would just go with the Dipoles. The ceiling speakers are usually a SQ compromise in favor of aesthetics.

 

[snmhanson]

If sound quality is your primary concern, I would just go with the Dipoles. The ceiling speakers are usually a SQ compromise in favor of aesthetics.

Thanks for the reply. I agree that the dipoles, or another box speaker, would probably provide a better sound. However, I am a little concerned with the lack of flexibility I face in positioning the dipoles. There is a 12' wide slider positioned directly to the left of the listening area so a dipole would have to be positioned at least ~8' back from the sides. Not sure if that is too far back or not, however, with the ceiling speakers I have alot more flexibility. Plus, the ceiling speakers while not the sonic equivalent to the dipoles, are somewhat less expensive and I just can't ignore the WAF - although it is not a major obstacle. I guess I am mostly concerned about the tradeoff between positioning flexibility and sound quality with a bit of consideration to cost. All of the speaker I am looking at (both the dipoles or in-ceiling) are from the Paradigm Reference lineup so they at least should be sonically matched with Studio fronts/centers. I wouldn't dream of using in-ceiling or wall speakers for the front soundstage, but I am wondering how much of a difference it would make for surrounds. With that said, I do value your input and advice and will will certainly take it into consideration when I make a decision.

 

[j_garcia]

A buddy of mine did a 7.1 setup with Paradigm Reference in ceilings and it sounded quite good. I wouldn't worry about it in your case; they will do fine. Just make sure you get a good place to do the positioning or do some listening tests to find the best location because once they are in, they are IN.

 

[popotoys]

I'm using SA-15R's with my setup and I am quite happy as well. Mine are only about 8ft apart though. I do think that the R-30 series style is a viable option as they can be pointed in your direction. I am thinking of upgrading to all R-30's for the 4 rears.

IMO, round in ceiling speakers do offer quite a divers sound field and these paridigms are quite good sounding.

 

[lsiberian]

I am looking at some speakers to use as surrounds to go with Paradigm Studio fronts and center. I was for the most part stuck on the Studio dipole surrounds, however, they will have to me mounted a ways back (not directly to the side) of the listening area. Even at that the wall space is limited so I won't have much room to play around with them. I have recently been thinking that maybe a pair of ceiling speakers (probably SA-15R, maybe SA-15R30s) might work better as I could mount them directly to the sides or shifted just slightly back from the listening area. However, my dilema is that the wires for the speakers are in a soffit along each side of the room and the room is about 22' wide so the speakers would be about 20' apart from each other. Is that too far apart for side surrounds? Also, will it make a big difference that the speakers are pointed directly down at the ground versus the dipoles which would have been facing out towards the room? If in-ceilings wouldn't work as side surrounds how about rear surrounds for a 7.1 system where the speakers would be in back of the listener about the same distance that the fronts are in front of the listener?

Thanks for any advice,

Matt

For surrounds it's anything goes almost. They aren't exactly the most important speakers. However in-ceilings scare me.

 

[Robof83]

For surrounds it's anything goes almost. They aren't exactly the most important speakers. However in-ceilings scare me.

For HT i somewhat agree with you. However, for multi-channel music listening I know I sure appreciate having decent surrounds.

 

[fredk]

Could you ceiling mount your dipoles above the slider angled down. On my sliders I would have enough room for my Axiom QS8s.

 

[snmhanson]

Could you ceiling mount your dipoles above the slider angled down. On my sliders I would have enough room for my Axiom QS8s.

Kind of. I couldn't put them directly above the slider because I have a soffit that goes around the entire room and projects about 30" into the room from each wall. There just isn't enough room between the slider and the soffit to fit the speaker. I could probably put some dipoles on the soffit and have them angled towards the listening area which would also move them in a little bit, but aesthetically it would look very strange and out of place. If I go with dipoles I really would have to put them about 8' back from the listening area on the wall.

I think what this is coming down to is that if dipoles will sound better shifted back a ways than in-ceiling speakers directly to the side of the listening area, then I will go for the dipoles - unless it would just be a marginal improvement. If it wasn't a significant improvement I would probably opt for the cost savings, flexibility and invisibility that the in-ceilings offer. I am back to leaning towards the dipoles right now but nothing is set in stone (or drywall) yet. It sounds like I am asking a question that is room specific and even then, there is not a definitive answer - just personal preference. Nevertheless, I am still interested in what anyone has to add so keep the comments coming!

Thanks,

Matt

 

[AVRat]

Sometimes, people become too wrapped up in matching the surrounds to the front three. This may seem like the best way to obtain a totally coherent sound, but truth be told, unless the room is totally dedicated and treated you’re unlikely to notice the difference from a mismatched system. It seems you have a relatively large space so I’d opt for 4 of the bi-polar in-ceilings from SpeakerCraft or Niles.


http://www.speakercraft.com/#Products:409:AIM Wide Three
http://www.nilesaudio.com/product.php?prodID=CM760DSFX&recordID=Ceiling Mount Loudspeakers&categoryID=Speakers&catcdID=1&prdcdID=FG01311

 

[MDS]

I think what this is coming down to is that if dipoles will sound better shifted back a ways than in-ceiling speakers directly to the side of the listening area, then I will go for the dipoles - unless it would just be a marginal improvement.

Dipoles are supposed to be mounted so that your ear is in the null of the speaker (the empty part between the drivers) because they fire forewards and backwards. Thus ideally you'd want them directly to your sides or at least in the 90 - 110 degree range recommended for placement of side surrounds in general.

It may create an interesting effect and sound good if they are way behind you but probably not ideal. I think I'd opt for the in-ceiling speakers instead. I'd make sure the in-ceiling speakers have aimable tweeters at a minimum so that you could aim them towards the listener or even towards the walls to bounce the sound off the walls to your side to get the surround effect.

 

[snmhanson]

Thanks once again for the advice. This site has been very helpful as I have been dialing in my room. I had one other thought when I was looking at the ADP manual on the Paradigm site. I could put dipoles in the rear corners of the room, facing the listening area. The room is about 22' wide by 26' long and the seating area is right about in the middle. The back half of the room has a pool table so I can't move the seating area back at all. Would dipoles in the rear corners be too far back to be effective?

Thanks,

Matt

 

[ozmedia]

However in-ceilings scare me.

No need to be scared, they aren't that dangerous unless you forget to tighten them down.

I help my clients (builders, theatre designers, security and low voltage installers)plan installs with both bi/di pole in and on wall models as well as in-ceiling speakers every day. In ceiling speakers have become the most common for surrounds and even rears these days, especially with new homes incorporating great-rooms with nowhere to place rears.

Most DECENT in-ceiling manufacturer's build a 'fixed' angle in ceiling speaker, this means no mechanical movement, some make speakers that drop out from the ceiling, which LOOKs nice but reduces rigidity.

In my case, once again, I work with RBH products. They make a fixed in ceiling (in various grades,a polypro builder series, fibreglass or aluminum cones) all with high end 2nd order crossovers, swivel tweets, 3dB+/- treble and bass contour etc.

They are backed by a 25 YEAR warranty!! (yes you read that right)

One key with inceiling speakers that are fixed angle (allowing you to direct woofer as well as tweeter) is that they need ot be a larger diameter than the standadr downward firing models. If not, the plastic casing will impede the sound.

Here's a look at what I mean, http://rbhsound.com/mc615l.shtml
This particular model sells around $ 325.00/pr + installation and they are pretty hard to find. No retail or online sales, so if you want RBH you have to find a local theatre installer, home builder/rennovator etc.

You can always email RBH and they will hook you up with alocal reseller/installer too.

Other recommended in-ceiling brands would be Speakercraft, PSB is OKAY for architectural speakers but are way overpriced compared to the equivalent product from other companies. Destination audio makes a good in-wall, DA is a little sister company owned by RBH also, they can ususally be found online too and at least offer 10 year warranty, though not quite to the RH standard they are a safe compromise.

The thing with RBH and related products, they don't spend money on marketing, advertising, showrooms etc. and deal directly with installers so the margins don't get inflated like Paradign or Klipsch etc wher the retailers bump prices way up and then offer partial discounts. This plus being an OEM, allows RBH to offer e better value fo rmoney than others, high-fi at mid-fi prices.


Anyway, there's 2 cents for ya, or maybe a quarter anyway