Analog Stereo

[Soundman]

Hey, I was considering using an old analog stereo receiver for a 2-channel setup. The only problem I see is trying to use a sub with this kind of setup. I don't know if it's possible. Does anyone have any creative ideas, if in fact this is possible? Sorry, I don't have much experience with these older models.

 

[ggunnell]

Although you can implement the sub crossover by running your speaker wires through the fixed high level crossover of a sub's plate amp, the general problem is that you have no digital delay (speaker distance settings) to compensate for the usual 10-20 msec delay in most sub plate amps. You can try placing the sub next to you to compensate. A recent post on another forum mentioned that the Rythmic Servo subs had minimal delay -- you could build one of those. Or you could buy a digital stereo delay for your main speakers -- $300 will get you a Behringer DCX2496 digital crossover/delay/signal processor which will give you all kinds of EQ a well.

'Good bass' and 'cheap' don't get along

 

[Lordoftherings]

It is very easy to integrate a subwoofer with a Stereo 2-channel setup.

Just like the poster suggested above, simply use the High Level (speaker terminals from the subwoofer In & Out) to your receiver or integrated amp speaker's binding posts.
Out (speaker cables) from the receiver goes to the sub In High Level (speakers In), and another set of speaker cables goes to your two main speaker's binding posts. Voila. Just set the Gain on your sub to match the Master Volume Level on your receiver. And select the appropriate Low Pass Filter on the back of your sub. If it have a High Pass Filter, simply set it to it's appropriate position. Finnaly, use the Phase switch or control knob, if available, to the position that has the loudest volume level at the crossover selection from the sub, it will help somewhat for a better bland with your main speakers. Also, the position of your sub becomes quite important. You'll have to experiment for a good blend or balance. In the middle of your two front speakers might be a good starting point. Then experiment with depth, farther or closer to you (I bet closer works best).

Cool?

Bob

 

[ggunnell]

Bob, most sub plate amp controls affect only the low level inputs -- the speaker level crossover is fixed, usually at around 100Hz.

A bigger problem is that the phase control on the sub can only delay the sub signal more -- your best bet is to tune to a volume peak at the crossover frequency, thus avoiding cancellation when both sub and speakers are playing -- but you'll be tuning the sub one wavelength behind the main speakers.

Not to say that using a sub with speaker wire terminals on the plate amp won't work, or not be a significant improvement over no sub at all Just trying to be accurate.

Heck I've even used a cheap dual voice coil woofer in a plywood box, connected one voice coil in parallel with each main speaker (actually I had my main speakers on Speaker 'A" out and the sub coils on Speaker 'B'), and adjusted relative volume with low ohm non-inductive wirewound resistors (don't try this unless you know what you are doing impedance wise). Sounded great at the time with the no-name speakers I was using

 

[Lordoftherings]

I agree with you ggunnell, the High Level Speakers Inputs & Outputs is not the best way, but sometimes it is the only way.

And true about the Low and High Pass filters, with the speaker levels, it is fixed and with a more gentle slope too, at 100hz, like you said, in general.
But what other solution you propose? Just get rid of his receiver or amp, and buy another one? OK, fine. But I did connect my sub before with the High Levels, because I had no money, so I endure the restriction, till I got richer.

* Oups! I just realised that I was thinking Low Level Inputs & Outputs while I was typing my post. Very sorry about that, my lapse of concentration.
So, you're right, you cannot adjust the Low Pass Filter, it is fixed at the Speaker's levels. I was space out man! How could this happened to me.
I guess I'm only human.

I think I'll go watch "Watchmen" on Blu-ray now, this is the perfect opportunity. And tomorrow, I'll go see my doctor (I do actually have an appointment with her).

Regards & Cheers, and also Thank you for opening my eyes.

Bob

 

[DD66000]

Bob, most sub plate amp controls affect only the low level inputs -- the speaker level crossover is fixed, usually at around 100Hz.

I agree with you ggunnell, the High Level Speakers Inputs & Outputs is not the best way, but sometimes it is the only way.

You're both wrong. The low level inputs on a sub (LFE) by-passes the crossover and only has the sub VC. All the controls are active with the speaker connections.
For stereo setup using the speaker level is not a problem, as there is no LFE channel. In fact, long before there were AVRs and pre/pros that was the only way to connect a sub.

There are 3 ways to connect using speaker wire.
1) run wire from receiver to sub's in and then wire from sub's out to the mains.
2) run wires from the receiver to both the mains and the sub.

3) if the plate amp doesn't have speaker level out terminals and you want to just run wires to the sub and then to the mains then just connect a second (jumper) wire to the sub's in and connect those to the mains. Which is what I do on one of my setups.

In both 2,3 the system is being run in parallel.
In any case its just a matter of adjusting the sub's output to match the level of the mains.

 

[Soundman]

Pic

Thanks for the suggestions so far everyone. Looks like there are a few options. I want to make sure before I try this though. I don't want to blow anything...literally! Anyway, I'm still learning about vintage gear. Ideally, it would be nice to just connect a sub cable and make adjustments through the receiver, but with older gear I know I'll have to do it differently. Here's a pic. Maybe this will help:

Keeps the suggestions coming. Thanks.

 

[highfigh]

Thanks for the suggestions so far everyone. Looks like there are a few options. I want to make sure before I try this though. I don't want to blow anything...literally! Anyway, I'm still learning about vintage gear. Ideally, it would be nice to just connect a sub cable and make adjustments through the receiver, but with older gear I know I'll have to do it differently. Here's a pic. Maybe this will help:

Keeps the suggestions coming. Thanks.

Since your receiver has Pre Out and Main In, if the sub has a L and R low level input, get two Y cords that have one female and two male plugs. Run the audio cable of your choice to the sub's inputs and adjust the level accordingly. If the receiver used metal jumpers, put them in a small plastic bag to keep from losing them. If it has a switch, like many Kenwood and Marantz receivers (like yours), flip that to 'Separate'. I don't see a switch on yours, so I'll assume the jumpers have been removed or the switch just isn't clearly shown.

 

[Soundman]

Since your receiver has Pre Out and Main In, if the sub has a L and R low level input, get two Y cords that have one female and two male plugs. Run the audio cable of your choice to the sub's inputs and adjust the level accordingly. If the receiver used metal jumpers, put them in a small plastic bag to keep from losing them. If it has a switch, like many Kenwood and Marantz receivers (like yours), flip that to 'Separate'. I don't see a switch on yours, so I'll assume the jumpers have been removed or the switch just isn't clearly shown.

The only switxh I'm aware of is in the lower left hand side, marked switched and unswitched, but this is for switching the AC voltage. Here's a pic. This isn't my model, but this picture is clearer and shows the same thing:

I believe what you are referring too are the metal clips that connect the "main in" and the "pre out" and those have been removed.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...

Keeps the suggestions coming. Thanks.

Can you do some closeups of the terminals?

 

[Lordoftherings]

You're both wrong. The low level inputs on a sub (LFE) by-passes the crossover and only has the sub VC. All the controls are active with the speaker connections.
For stereo setup using the speaker level is not a problem, as there is no LFE channel. In fact, long before there were AVRs and pre/pros that was the only way to connect a sub.

There are 3 ways to connect using speaker wire.
1) run wire from receiver to sub's in and then wire from sub's out to the mains.
2) run wires from the receiver to both the mains and the sub.

3) if the plate amp doesn't have speaker level out terminals and you want to just run wires to the sub and then to the mains then just connect a second (jumper) wire to the sub's in and connect those to the mains. Which is what I do on one of my setups.

In both 2,3 the system is being run in parallel.
In any case its just a matter of adjusting the sub's output to match the level of the mains.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. So, was I also wrong on my very first post too?
Is that mean that I was double wrong??
Cannot be, but then, that would not be the first time.
Yep, you can connect so many different type of subs in so many different ways, it's just mind boggling sometimes. No wonder, one gets confused.

The only switxh I'm aware of is in the lower left hand side, marked switched and unswitched, but this is for switching the AC voltage. Here's a pic. This isn't my model, but this picture is clearer and shows the same thing:

I believe what you are referring too are the metal clips that connect the "main in" and the "pre out" and those have been removed.

Hey Soundman, it's your lucky day man!

Because your vintage Marantz Stereo receiver has both Pre Out/Main In, you can easily connect a sub through these.

* You just need two pair of analog stereo interconnects.

#1. On your Marantz, where it says Pre Out, just connect one pair of interconnect there (Left & Right channel), and then connect the other end to your subwoofer Low Level IN (RCA In jacks). If your sub has only Mono In, just use a Y adaptor (2 females & 1 male).

#2. On your Marantz, where it says Main In, just connect the other pair of interconnect there (L & R channel), and then connect the other end to your subwoofer Low Level Out (RCA Out jacks). If your sub has only Mono Out, just use a Y adaptor (2 females & 1 male).

*** If your sub does not have Low Level Out (RCA jack(s) Out), use some speaker cables from the sub High Level Out (Speaker binding posts) to the respective Left and Right speaker binding posts of your two front speakers.
-> You don't need that interconnect any more, from the Main In of your Marantz. And you don't connect any speaker cables from the back of your Marantz either. Set the Low Pass Filter to where about you thing is best (eg. if your two main speakers have good bass to about 60hz, try a Low Pass Filter at about 80hz). And just adjust the Gain (Volume Level), from the knob on your sub, to match equally the Volume level of your Marantz.
That might take several tries to balance properly, just be patient and experiment with some CDs containing great bass passages in their recordings.
Acoustic bass would be best.

[OK, now I'm ready for the critics.]

Cheers,

Bob

 

[Soundman]

Thanks for the detailed explanation. So, was I also wrong on my very first post too?
Is that mean that I was double wrong??
Cannot be, but then, that would not be the first time.
Yep, you can connect so many different type of subs in so many different ways, it's just mind boggling sometimes. No wonder, one gets confused.



Hey Soundman, it's your lucky day man!

Because your vintage Marantz Stereo receiver has both Pre Out/Main In, you can easily connect a sub through these.

* You just need two pair of analog stereo interconnects.

#1. On your Marantz, where it says Pre Out, just connect one pair of interconnect there (Left & Right channel), and then connect the other end to your subwoofer Low Level IN (RCA In jacks). If your sub has only Mono In, just use a Y adaptor (2 females & 1 male).

#2. On your Marantz, where it says Main In, just connect the other pair of interconnect there (L & R channel), and then connect the other end to your subwoofer Low Level Out (RCA Out jacks). If your sub has only Mono Out, just use a Y adaptor (2 females & 1 male).

*** If your sub does not have Low Level Out (RCA jack(s) Out), use some speaker cables from the sub High Level Out (Speaker binding posts) to the respective Left and Right speaker binding posts of your two front speakers.
-> You don't need that interconnect any more, from the Main In of your Marantz. And you don't connect any speaker cables from the back of your Marantz either. Set the Low Pass Filter to where about you thing is best (eg. if your two main speakers have good bass to about 60hz, try a Low Pass Filter at about 80hz). And just adjust the Gain (Volume Level), from the knob on your sub, to match equally the Volume level of your Marantz.
That might take several tries to balance properly, just be patient and experiment with some CDs containing great bass passages in their recordings.
Acoustic bass would be best.

[OK, now I'm ready for the critics.]

Cheers,

Bob

Sounds like a plan. I'll have to mess around with it, but this sounds promising. I know it won't be perfect, but I think I can get it to sound decent if I put a little time into this. Thanks.

 

[markw]

Before getting bogged down in details,

What sub are you using?

With that receiver you have many options. Does it work with speakers as shown, that is without jumpers between the preamp outs and the main ins?

 

[Soundman]

What sub are you using?

With that receiver you have many options. Does it work with speakers as shown, that is without jumpers between the preamp outs and the main ins?

Actually, I haven't purchased a sub yet. That's one of the reason's I started the thread. I wanted to make sure this was a viable option before purchasing one.

 

[WmAx]

Thanks for the detailed explanation. So, was I also wrong on my very first post too?
Is that mean that I was double wrong??
Cannot be, but then, that would not be the first time.
Yep, you can connect so many different type of subs in so many different ways, it's just mind boggling sometimes. No wonder, one gets confused.



Hey Soundman, it's your lucky day man!

Because your vintage Marantz Stereo receiver has both Pre Out/Main In, you can easily connect a sub through these.

* You just need two pair of analog stereo interconnects.

#1. On your Marantz, where it says Pre Out, just connect one pair of interconnect there (Left & Right channel), and then connect the other end to your subwoofer Low Level IN (RCA In jacks). If your sub has only Mono In, just use a Y adaptor (2 females & 1 male).

#2. On your Marantz, where it says Main In, just connect the other pair of interconnect there (L & R channel), and then connect the other end to your subwoofer Low Level Out (RCA Out jacks). If your sub has only Mono Out, just use a Y adaptor (2 females & 1 male).

*** If your sub does not have Low Level Out (RCA jack(s) Out), use some speaker cables from the sub High Level Out (Speaker binding posts) to the respective Left and Right speaker binding posts of your two front speakers.
-> You don't need that interconnect any more, from the Main In of your Marantz. And you don't connect any speaker cables from the back of your Marantz either. Set the Low Pass Filter to where about you thing is best (eg. if your two main speakers have good bass to about 60hz, try a Low Pass Filter at about 80hz). And just adjust the Gain (Volume Level), from the knob on your sub, to match equally the Volume level of your Marantz.
That might take several tries to balance properly, just be patient and experiment with some CDs containing great bass passages in their recordings.
Acoustic bass would be best.

[OK, now I'm ready for the critics.]

Cheers,

Bob

For this to work really well, (1) the user needs to get a decent active crossover to filter both the subwoofer(s) and main channel(s), [and] (2) the user should use dual subs, one near each main sub, if he wants to have perfect integrated bass that sounds realistic, espeically critical for acoustic bass, cello, etc..

The main pre and amp in RCA jacks as seen in the photo make it seem that this receiver is designed to have such an active device inserted in the system. The Behringer CX2310 is a very well made/high performance active crossover that would be suitable for this application.

-Chris

 

[DD66000]

Because your vintage Marantz Stereo receiver has both Pre Out/Main In, you can easily connect a sub through these.

* You just need two pair of analog stereo interconnects.

#1. On your Marantz, where it says Pre Out, just connect one pair of interconnect there (Left & Right channel), and then connect the other end to your subwoofer Low Level IN (RCA In jacks). If your sub has only Mono In, just use a Y adaptor (2 females & 1 male).

#2. On your Marantz, where it says Main In, just connect the other pair of interconnect there (L & R channel), and then connect the other end to your subwoofer Low Level Out (RCA Out jacks). If your sub has only Mono Out, just use a Y adaptor (2 females & 1 male).

*** If your sub does not have Low Level Out (RCA jack(s) Out), use some speaker cables from the sub High Level Out (Speaker binding posts) to the respective Left and Right speaker binding posts of your two front speakers.
-> You don't need that interconnect any more, from the Main In of your Marantz. And you don't connect any speaker cables from the back of your Marantz either. Set the Low Pass Filter to where about you thing is best (eg. if your two main speakers have good bass to about 60hz, try a Low Pass Filter at about 80hz). And just adjust the Gain (Volume Level), from the knob on your sub, to match equally the Volume level of your Marantz.

I'm not sure that is right. Remember we're talking about vintage gear that is nothing like AVRs of today.

Thinking about my old Yamaha intragrated amp it has main in and preout and a switch to change from one to the other. If I remember right, the main in was for connecting the input of a power amp. The preout was for connecting the output of a pre-amp. This means the amp can be used one of three ways: as an int amp, a pre-amp, or a power amp. I think that's the same for the Marantz.

As I've never tried it, I don't know if you can input to the low level input on a sub and get a signal at the speaker level out. I think it has to be speaker level in/speaker level out, or line level in/line level out.

 

[highfigh]

The only switxh I'm aware of is in the lower left hand side, marked switched and unswitched, but this is for switching the AC voltage. Here's a pic. This isn't my model, but this picture is clearer and shows the same thing:

I believe what you are referring too are the metal clips that connect the "main in" and the "pre out" and those have been removed.

I assumed they had been since they weren't inserted and that one has no switch. The method I posted will work for what you want, as long as the subwoofer amp has a L and R input with a low pass crossover and level control.

 

[Soundman]

I assumed they had been since they weren't inserted and that one has no switch. The method I posted will work for what you want, as long as the subwoofer amp has a L and R input with a low pass crossover and level control.

OK, sounds good. I think most subs these days should have those features.

 

[Soundman]

For this to work really well, (1) the user needs to get a decent active crossover to filter both the subwoofer(s) and main channel(s), [and] (2) the user should use dual subs, one near each main sub, if he wants to have perfect integrated bass that sounds realistic, espeically critical for acoustic bass, cello, etc..

The main pre and amp in RCA jacks as seen in the photo make it seem that this receiver is designed to have such an active device inserted in the system. The Behringer CX2310 is a very well made/high performance active crossover that would be suitable for this application.

-Chris

Hey Chris,
This sounds very promising. Where do you purchase one of these. Ok, maybe I'm just being lazy.

 

[WmAx]

Hey Chris,
This sounds very promising. Where do you purchase one of these. Ok, maybe I'm just being lazy.

http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHCX2310

Despite it's cheap price, it is not cheaply made. It used high quality ALPS pots and switches throughout, 1% tolerance metal film resistors, an oversize toroidal transformer/PS, and offers very high performance.

It's a professional piece of gear. You will need someXLR to RCA adapters, but these are easy to make, or you can just buy premade ones.

-Chris