Need help - 10" Woofers '8 ohms' into car (groove box project)

C

CheapAss

Enthusiast
I have two 10" Woofers from an old 'half-completed' home stereo project I started when I was sixteen. I haven't used them in years, they are still in great nick, as are the piezo tweeters.

This is project groovebox.

I want to house them in a dual sub-bin. The drivers are rated at 8 ohms, 160w each.


Can I use a car amp?
Do car amps exist that operate at 8 ohms?
Would I need to bridge the amp to achieve 8 ohm output?
Can I bridge the two drivers, into 4 ohms?
Would I need an extra car battery?
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I have two 10" Woofers from an old 'half-completed' home stereo project I started when I was sixteen. I haven't used them in years, they are still in great nick, as are the piezo tweeters.

This is project groovebox.

I want to house them in a dual sub-bin. The drivers are rated at 8 ohms, 160w each.


Can I use a car amp?
Do car amps exist that operate at 8 ohms?
Would I need to bridge the amp to achieve 8 ohm output?
Can I bridge the two drivers, into 4 ohms?
Would I need an extra car battery?
The box size and configuration will be determined by the parameters of the woofers. Period. You can't really force a woofer to work in the box you want to use just because it fits.

If you'll be using these in a car, you'll need a car audio amp. If you try ot use a home amp, you'll need a large inverter and that would be prohibitively expensive.

Any solid state amp will work into 8 ohms but the only way your amp will see 8 Ohms is if each channel drives one woofer. The amp's output rating is Watts, Load, % THD, 20Hz-20KHz +/- 3dB (or whatever they state), both channels driven. The amp itself won't generally be rated for output impedance so if, by " 8 ohm output" you mean into an 8 Ohm load, the amp will effectively see 1/2 of whatever the actual impedance is. The amp's design will determine whether it will work well into a 4 Ohm load and if it will, it will develop more power into a lower impedance load.

Car audio uses lower impedance loads because they take power from a 12VDC system. Kome equipment takes power from 120VAC/220VAC (possibly 220V in your case since "still in great nick" isn't a common expression here in the US) and is then reduced for the amplifier's demands.

FYI- You bridge an amp, not speakers. You wire speakers in parallel or series. If you do bridge the amp, the current demands will determine the need for a second battery. If you add a battery and the amp draws enough current, you'll also need to use a higher output alternator, heavier charging lead and a heavier ground wire from the body to the battery.
 
C

CheapAss

Enthusiast
The box size and configuration will be determined by the parameters of the woofers. Period. You can't really force a woofer to work in the box you want to use just because it fits.
My long-term goal is a custom box, designed specifically for the drivers. I've been reading up on DIY speaker design plus I found an old catalog in the garage today, so I have all the specs I need.

For now I'll be chucking them in an old sub-bin, which I also had in the garage, while I'm building the real box. This is just temporary so I have sound in the meantime. For the final product I'll be going at whatever pace necessary to achieve the best results.

If you'll be using these in a car, you'll need a car audio amp. If you try ot use a home amp, you'll need a large inverter and that would be prohibitively expensive.

Any solid state amp will work into 8 ohms but the only way your amp will see 8 Ohms is if each channel drives one woofer. The amp's output rating is Watts, Load, % THD, 20Hz-20KHz +/- 3dB (or whatever they state), both channels driven. The amp itself won't generally be rated for output impedance so if, by " 8 ohm output" you mean into an 8 Ohm load, the amp will effectively see 1/2 of whatever the actual impedance is. The amp's design will determine whether it will work well into a 4 Ohm load and if it will, it will develop more power into a lower impedance load.

Car audio uses lower impedance loads because they take power from a 12VDC system. Kome equipment takes power from 120VAC/220VAC (possibly 220V in your case since "still in great nick" isn't a common expression here in the US) and is then reduced for the amplifier's demands.
240 is what we get here in oz.

Does that mean if I run the drivers at 4 ohms it'll draw extra power from my car therefore I may require a second battery?

How will changing the resistance/impedance on the drivers affect their performance? I understand if you wire the drivers up in a series, increasing the resistance, they will draw less power from the amp, and vice-versa with parallel wiring. But what does this actually mean? Is one way better than the other for the drivers/amp?

It seems like the way to go is running the speakers at 8 ohms, what they were designed for, and powering them with a 2 channel amp - 1 channel for each driver.

FYI- You bridge an amp, not speakers. You wire speakers in parallel or series. If you do bridge the amp, the current demands will determine the need for a second battery. If you add a battery and the amp draws enough current, you'll also need to use a higher output alternator, heavier charging lead and a heavier ground wire from the body to the battery.
Sounds like I should go for a 2 channel amp, no bridging, and run the drivers on 2 separate channels. Should I be looking for an amp with double the wattage rating of the (8 ohm) drivers, seeing as car amps are normally used to powering 4 ohm speakers? There are so many brands and models out there, I have no idea what I should be looking.

I might just google 'buying car amps' and see what I can learn.

I'll also be running 2 piezo tweeters along with the drivers (35 volt RMS, 100w amp power). <--- I assume this means it can handle 100w max. I don't think I've ever heard of tweeters needing 100w to power them.


Many years ago I was told it's better to use an amp with a slightly higher wattage rating than the drivers you're planning to power, while running an amp with a lower rating can put a 'dirty signal' into the drivers if cranked up too loud, damaging the speakers. However if the amp is too powerful and you over-crank you run the risk of blowing them.


You'll have to forgive me mate, it's late here and I'm getting drowsy. Plus I want to learn as much as I can so I know exactly what I'm doing.

Cheers
 
C

CheapAss

Enthusiast
Specs

Piezo Tweeter

Max input : 35volt RMS (100 watt amp power)
Freq resp : 3.8kHz - 28kHz +3dB
Sensitivity : 94dB/1W/1M

No crossover needed (apparently)


10" High Power Polycone Woofer

Nom impedance : 8ohms
Power handling : 160watts RMS
Freq range : 29Hz - 2500Hz
Sensitivity : 91dB 1watt 1metre
Voice Coil Resistance (Re) : 6.9ohms
Mechanical Q factor (Qms) : 7.632
Electrical Q factor (Qes) : 0.364
Total Q factor (Qts) : 0.347
Equivalent volume (Vas) : 98Lt
Cone Area (sq m) : 0.0346


edit-
I notice the frequency range for both do not meet. These tweeters are cheap replacement models.

2.5kHz - 3.8kHz is nonexistent.

Later I will opt for better quality tweeters like I used to have, which cover the lower frequencies. For now I'll have to make do with the stock speakers in my car and hope they will fill in the missing frequencies.
 
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lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
South Australia
That's a great place. What town are you in mate?

I stayed in Berri, South Australia for about 2 months in 2005. Talk about good fruit and wine!

Bundaberg is some good stuff. Watch out for the drop bears. Our hosts warned us about them.:)
 
C

CheapAss

Enthusiast
Yeah mate, those pesky little bastards will destroy you get caught off guard.

I'm in Adelaide.
 
C

CheapAss

Enthusiast
edit-
Yeah mate, those pesky little bastards will destroy you if they catch you off guard.

(reason) : I just woke up
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
My long-term goal is a custom box, designed specifically for the drivers. I've been reading up on DIY speaker design plus I found an old catalog in the garage today, so I have all the specs I need.

For now I'll be chucking them in an old sub-bin, which I also had in the garage, while I'm building the real box. This is just temporary so I have sound in the meantime. For the final product I'll be going at whatever pace necessary to achieve the best results.



240 is what we get here in oz.

Does that mean if I run the drivers at 4 ohms it'll draw extra power from my car therefore I may require a second battery?

How will changing the resistance/impedance on the drivers affect their performance? I understand if you wire the drivers up in a series, increasing the resistance, they will draw less power from the amp, and vice-versa with parallel wiring. But what does this actually mean? Is one way better than the other for the drivers/amp?

It seems like the way to go is running the speakers at 8 ohms, what they were designed for, and powering them with a 2 channel amp - 1 channel for each driver.



Sounds like I should go for a 2 channel amp, no bridging, and run the drivers on 2 separate channels. Should I be looking for an amp with double the wattage rating of the (8 ohm) drivers, seeing as car amps are normally used to powering 4 ohm speakers? There are so many brands and models out there, I have no idea what I should be looking.

I might just google 'buying car amps' and see what I can learn.

I'll also be running 2 piezo tweeters along with the drivers (35 volt RMS, 100w amp power). <--- I assume this means it can handle 100w max. I don't think I've ever heard of tweeters needing 100w to power them.


Many years ago I was told it's better to use an amp with a slightly higher wattage rating than the drivers you're planning to power, while running an amp with a lower rating can put a 'dirty signal' into the drivers if cranked up too loud, damaging the speakers. However if the amp is too powerful and you over-crank you run the risk of blowing them.


You'll have to forgive me mate, it's late here and I'm getting drowsy. Plus I want to learn as much as I can so I know exactly what I'm doing.

Cheers
It's always better to have more power than you need because you generally won't run out of headroom and it won't distort much. If you have two woofers that are rated at 8 Ohms, running them in parallel and connecting them to an amp that's set for bridged/mono operation, the amp should be very happy, you'll have gobs of power and you can get a lot of output. How much current your charging system will need to deliver depends on the amp's design.

I don't know if you have them where you are, but a friend of mine sells amps called Heiden (Heiden 2 and Heiden 4). They run cool, don't draw a ton of current, sound very good and output is more than they're rated. One of the reasons I mention this brand is the they're made in China (what isn't?) and since you're close,...

They have High Pass and Low Pass filters with variable turnover points, input sensitivity controls (these need to be set correctly) and beefy power terminals. My friend has serviced audio equipment for decades and he can't afford to sell crap, but when a no-name comes along that performs well and is dependable, it just makes sense to look at it. AFAIK, he hasn't had any returns on these.
 
C

CheapAss

Enthusiast
Thanks for your help mate, I really appreciate it. :)

I'll have to look up those amps. I was about to buy one of ebay earlier today - 5600w (max power) PowerVox I think it was. $50 Australian.

I take it that means 5600w MAX (at once), bridged amp, 1 channel and 1 ohm.


I was a little worried, so I held off. I read that even if your amp is rated for x amount of watts, if it's poorly designed and 'cheap' it doesn't matter how powerful it is, it'll pump a dirty signal into your drivers and it won't be any good for them in the long run. Better to buy one with a lower power rating but have it delivering a clean signal.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Thanks for your help mate, I really appreciate it. :)

I'll have to look up those amps. I was about to buy one of ebay earlier today - 5600w (max power) PowerVox I think it was. $50 Australian.

I take it that means 5600w MAX (at once), bridged amp, 1 channel and 1 ohm.


I was a little worried, so I held off. I read that even if your amp is rated for x amount of watts, if it's poorly designed and 'cheap' it doesn't matter how powerful it is, it'll pump a dirty signal into your drivers and it won't be any good for them in the long run. Better to buy one with a lower power rating but have it delivering a clean signal.
There is no way in hell a $50 amp will put out 5600W. Also, a bridged amp is effectively seeing a 1/2 Ohm load/channel and there's no $50 amp that will handle that.

Look at the size and number of fuses on whatever amp you consider. The Power formula is P=I x E and most amps use 14.4V as their reference voltage. Most amps are designed as Class AB and are about 50% efficient (maybe), which means that for every Watt of input power, the output will be about half of that. If the amp has two 30A fuses, this is for a worst case situation when something goes wrong but you can use it as a rough indicator for input. This means that P=14.4V x 60A, or 864W MAXIMUM current draw. Half of that is a maximum of 432W and if that is a 4 channel amp, you get a maximum of 108W/ch. Throw in some kind of frequency response or distortion requirement and you're guaranteed to see it rated lower than that.

FYI- 60A in a car needs at least 4ga power cable if the cable is only about 8 feet long. When the battery cable is run to the amp and the amp is grounded to the car body, the ground from the body to the battery needs to be upgraded too, in order for the circuit to be complete, without causing voltage drop at the amp.
 
C

CheapAss

Enthusiast
See for yourself

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/New-PowerVox-5600-Watt-4-Channel-Car-Amplifier-Black_W0QQitemZ370235603533QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Car_Parts_Accessories?hash=item5633c2fa4d&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14


edit-
It says "4x 140w RMS"

--

I think I made sense of your reply mate. Does this mean I should ignore the 'power rating' on the amp? This one I'm considering on ebay is fairly big, 2x 20A external fuses and 4 channels. But, if I just rig up the 2 drivers on one channel each, ignoring the other 2 channels, will this, in effect, cause the amp to pump all it's power into the 2 channels being used, effectively feeding a max load of 280w per channel?


P=14.4V x 40A, 576W MAX draw, 288W / 4 = 72W per channel

Me thinks this amp be shite.
 
Last edited:

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