HSU owners: VTF3-MK3 versus ULS-15

[skalathi]

I've been looking at both of these subs. Spec wise they seem more comparable than their large price difference would suggest. Has anyone actually heard both of them? I won't need the wireless capability of the ULS-15. Thanks!

 

[Chopin_Guy]

Well you are kind of talking about two different beasts and are quite different from each other....and the price difference is justified in the differences that are necessary to the proper execution of design and performance with each of these models...

Before I go on, I had a VTF-2 MK3 for a while in my office, and thought that is was a decent sub....granted I only used it a low levels...I doubt I would have liked it in a home theater or under high SPL usage...

Obviously the big difference in these being the VTF-3 is a ported design while the ULS-15 is a sealed design. I would look at these measurements of the ULS-15 and read the rest of the review which suggests that dual ULS-15s is the place to start...

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/home-theater-speakers/484-secrets-review-of-speakers-and-subwoofer.html?start=4

15.5% THD at 100db at a 20hz test is fairly high and not a flattering measurement for this sub...(Mind you, that in the first sentence of marketing for this sub on the HSU website, they market it as 'an ultra low distortion subwoofer')

In your price range I would be looking at these instead:

http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-newpb12plus.cfm

or perhaps one of these models from Epik

http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/sealeddragon.html
http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/portedphoenix.html
http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/porteddynasty.html

 

[Pete_Hsu]

When we measured the ULS-15 in our demo room with mic 1ft away from the cone, THD was less than 5% @ 100db. In the review mentioned above, at the location where the subwoofer was placed, there was a deep bass suckout (ie. 20Hz was several db lower in level compared to 40-60Hz). This inflates the 2nd and 3rd order harmonic distortion when measuring 20Hz fundamental. You can even see from the JL F113 review on the website that the in-room frequency response curve is totally different vs the in-room response of the ULS-15, even though both the F113 and ULS-15 have a pretty flat anechoic response from ~20-60Hz.

Most people who have listened to the ULS-15 have said it is the cleanest bass they have ever heard, and some of these individuals have listened to very high end and powerful subwoofers that are frequently talked about on the internet.

The ULS-15 vs VTF-3 MK3 is a very apples to oranges comparison. The ULS-15 plays deeper and generally sounds noticeably cleaner. In comparison to the -3 MK3 in extended bass mode, the ULS-15 has 2-3db higher max clean output capability using stepped distortion limits. However, due to large enclosure and ports, the VTF-3 MK3 does have more raw max output capability near the port tuning frequency.

If one is looking for the cleanest and deepest sound from a relatively compact enclosure, and they have a flexible enough budget, then ULS-15 is the appropriate choice. If one is looking for more raw output capability per $, with good sound quality, a tighter budget, and less need for a smaller enclosure, then VTF-3 MK3 is the appropriate choice.

Sincerely,

 

[Chopin_Guy]

You can even see from the JL F113 review on the website that the in-room frequency response curve is totally different vs the in-room response of the ULS-15, even though both the F113 and ULS-15 have a pretty flat anechoic response from ~20-60Hz.

I have not the technically knowledge to confirm or digest your response to the published measurements from that review...i.e. understanding of acoustic phenomenon.

Nonetheless, I think the comparison to the F113 is somewhat comical as that subwoofer is a price no matter, end-all construction, subwoofer that is built to extremely high specification.

 

[shadyJ]

I have both the VTF3.3 and a ULS dual drive, and there isn't much I can say that Pete didn't already say. I haven't heard the SVS or the ED subs, but the ULS is the cleanest, least boomy, tightest subwoofer I have ever heard. The VTF3 was the best prior to that, and from what I have heard in its price class the VTF3 is the best sounding subwoofer short of the rythmiks. There is no way the SVS or the Epiks are going to match the ULS in sound quality, and I don't think they could even surpass the VTF3.

To compare them, the ULS goes deeper with a lot less effort that the VTF3, and is much quicker. I don't think it really goes a lot louder, but in every respect aside from sheer output, the ULS is a much finer sub. The VTF3 is still a fantastic subwoofer though, I would guess the very best in its price point.

The ULS surprised me again just yesterday when I ran a subwoofer test sound from youtube which was a 5 hertz to 100 hertz sweep. I didn't realize the video start would playing automatically when I loaded the page. I clicked on the link to the youtube page and then I heard my ceiling and walls shake, and after a couple moments the subwoofers started to make sound. The infrasonic frequencies were vibrating my room. That really startled me! Without exaggeration, it was like a small earthquake.

 

[bandphan]

I have both the VTF3.3 and a ULS dual drive, and there isn't much I can say that Pete didn't already say. I haven't heard the SVS or the ED subs, but the ULS is the cleanest, least boomy, tightest subwoofer I have ever heard. The VTF3 was the best prior to that, and from what I have heard in its price class the VTF3 is the best sounding subwoofer short of the rythmiks. There is no way the SVS or the Epiks are going to match the ULS in sound quality, and I don't think they could even surpass the VTF3.

To compare them, the ULS goes deeper with a lot less effort that the VTF3, and is much quicker. I don't think it really goes a lot louder, but in every respect aside from sheer output, the ULS is a much finer sub. The VTF3 is still a fantastic subwoofer though, I would guess the very best in its price point.

The ULS surprised me again just yesterday when I ran a subwoofer test sound from youtube which was a 5 hertz to 100 hertz sweep. I didn't realize the video start would playing automatically when I loaded the page. I clicked on the link to the youtube page and then I heard my ceiling and walls shake, and after a couple moments the subwoofers started to make sound. The infrasonic frequencies were vibrating my room. That really startled me! Without exaggeration, it was like a small earthquake.

how can you make statments like the two above

 

[shadyJ]

I make that statement based on the fact that back when I was looking to see what good subs were out there before I purchased the VTF3.3, I had read many reviews from people, from here and other message boards, who had owned products from those companies and stated that HSU had the edge in sound quality. The only brand that I have ever read which exceeded HSU in sound quality is Rythmik from those who had owned both. I wouldn't doubt that there are better subs in this regard from companies like JL Audio, but that isn't a fair comparison.

Now if the VTFs are reported to sound better than the competing brands, and I personally know that the ULS sounds better than the VTF, I can make that inference- but, of course, based only on second hand information. However, I added that as a qualifier inbetween the two statements which you highlighted. I must admit I am a big fan of HSU products (some might say 'fandboy'), but that is only because of the many subwoofers I have heard, they truly are the best.

With that being said, I would love to hear a face-off between a Epik Dragon, ED A7S-450, ULS 15, and the Rythmik F15. I wonder what the advantages of 18 inch woofers would be over 15s, and vice versa.

 

[bandphan]

I make that statement based on the fact that back when I was looking to see what good subs were out there before I purchased the VTF3.3, I had read many reviews from people, from here and other message boards, who had owned products from those companies and stated that HSU had the edge in sound quality. The only brand that I have ever read which exceeded HSU in sound quality is Rythmik from those who had owned both. I wouldn't doubt that there are better subs in this regard from companies like JL Audio, but that isn't a fair comparison.

Now if the VTFs are reported to sound better than the competing brands, and I personally know that the ULS sounds better than the VTF, I can make that inference- but, of course, based only on second hand information. However, I added that as a qualifier inbetween the two statements which you highlighted. I must admit I am a big fan of HSU products (some might say 'fandboy'), but that is only because of the many subwoofers I have heard, they truly are the best.

With that being said, I would love to hear a face-off between a Epik Dragon, ED A7S-450, ULS 15, and the Rythmik F15. I wonder what the advantages of 18 inch woofers would be over 15s, and vice versa.

Yep the Fanboy thing

thr old craigsub rankings
Elemental Designs A7-900 ($2200 ID/SI): 116 points (63-53)
Epik Conquest ($1599 ID): 112 points (60-52)
SVS PB13-Ultra ($1499 ID): 109 points (57-52)
Epik Castle ($999 ID): 109 points (59-50)
AV123 MFW-15 Duals: 109 points (56-53) (note, duals were tested as duals are offered as a package)
Creative Sounds Dual SDX-15 driver + Behringer EP-2500 Amp + Behringer DEQ2496 ($1630 ID): 105 points (57-48)
JL Audio Fathom 113 ($3500 BM): 103 points (53-50)
AV123 MFW-15 ($599 ID): 103 points (53-50)
Def Tech Trinity ($3000 BM): 102 points (54-48)
Velodyne DD-18 ($5000 BM): 100 points (50-50)
ACI Maestro ($2400 ID): 97 points (47-50)
eD A5-350 ($715 ID/SI): 96 points (50-46)
JL Audio Fathom 112 ($2600 BM): 95 points (45-50)
Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo ($999 ID): 94 points (47-47)
Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo ($899 ID): 92 points (45-47)
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III + Turbo ($799 ID): 92 points (45-47)
Epik Valor ($549 ID): 91 points (44-47)
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III w/o Turbo ($699 ID): 91 points (45-46)
SVS PB12-Ultra: 90 points (47-43)
Axiom EP-500 ($1230 ID/SI): 90 points (43-47)
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III + Turbo ($599 ID): 88 points (42-46)
SVS PB12-Plus/2 ($1299 ID): 87 points (47-40)
SVS PB12-NSD ($599 ID): 86 points (43-43)
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III w/o Turbo ($499 ID): 86 points (40-46)
Rocket UFW-12 ($999 ID): 85 points (provisional) (35-50)
Elemental Designs A2-300 ($350 ID/SI): 83 points (44-39)
SVS PB10-NSD ($429 ID): 83 points (43-40)
Dana Audio 600 ($869 ID): 83 points (36-47)
Rocket X-Sub ($199 ID): 78 points (34-44)
BIC H-100 ($229 eBay): 78 points (40-38)

 

[FirstReflection]

I'm sorry, but talking about one quality subwoofer being "better" than another really means extremely little when it is unknown how much room interaction is playing a role in the final sound.

Bass frequencies interact with any room. If you properly set up and optimize the placement of a merely "good" subwoofer, it will destroy the performance of a "great" subwoofer that is not properly set up and/or not optimized in terms of placement.

All that we can really compare are anechoic distortion and frequency response measurements so that the room plays no part in the comparison. But absolutely no one's listening room is an anechoic chamber and the room IS going to play a part - there is just no way around it!

Add in the fact that human hearing of bass frequencies is pretty unreliable and really not very good at all and I wind up just finding it all a bit silly to be saying that HSU is better than SVS or that Epik is better than eD or what ever other comparison anyone wants to make!

If you measure the anechoic response and discover that subwoofer A has lower distortion than subwoofer B at frequency X at dB level Y - well that's handy. But considering that more often than not, people are never playing either sub anywhere close to as loud as dB level Y and frequency X only pops up sporadically in any given recording - the whole thing really just becomes a bit silly.

I read so many opinions of how great such-and-such a subwoofer is - how it was "clearly" better than some other popular subwoofer. And then I find out that the subwoofer isn't even decoupled from the floor and it's stuffed into a corner! Well gee whiz - with that kind of set up, the person isn't even really hearing the subwoofer so much as they are hearing how their room is reacting to the subwoofer!

You wanna know about the VTF-3 MK3, the ULS-15, the SVS PB12-Plus, the Axiom EP500, the Epik Dragon or on and on and on? They're good. They're all good. And if you're coming from the same place as most people - from a HTiB or a store bought sub - ANY of these subs is going to be a tremendous improvement!

But which one is "best"? It's entirely going to depend upon your room, where you place the sub and how you set up the sub.

The measurements and comparisons are fun, but in real world terms, it's almost always just a matter of splitting hairs. People who are saying that they can hear such clear differences - well, it's like most other instances when it comes to audio - they WANT to hear a difference, so they do...simple as that. In a genuinely blind listening test where care has been taken to closely level match and set up each subwoofer so that it has the fewest interactions with the room and the flattest frequency response? It's nigh impossible to tell one good subwoofer from another.

We suck at hearing bass to begin with and in most cases, the room plays at least an equal part to the subwoofer itself. Focus on properly placing and setting up your subwoofer - then factor in the physical size and the looks that you want. When you are talking about good subwoofer, those things should weigh more heavily in your decision than worrying about differences in output that can only be measured in an anechoic chamber

 

[mziegler]

I have directly compared a ULS-15, Fathom 112, and Rythmik F15. All were outstanding. There were not huge differences between the ULS-15 and Rythmik.

I directly compared the Rythmik and Hsu 3mk2 in my room, with the Rytmik being much better--deeper and cleaner.

Simple logic dictates that the ULS-15 would also sound much better in my room.

Does this apply to the OP? Perhaps. In any case, the ULS-15 is one excellent sub.

 

[abboudc]

Yep the Fanboy thing

thr old craigsub rankings

SVS PB12-Ultra: 90 points (47-43)

...

Rocket X-Sub ($199 ID): 78 points (34-44)

I have to call into question the methodology that ranks the XSub higher than a PB12-Ultra on anything except maybe WAF (the first number is a "home theater" score and the second is a "music" score...) No way.

 

[dk78]

i couldnt tell ya

 

[fredk]

Does this apply to the OP? Perhaps. In any case, the ULS-15 is one excellent sub.

Absolutely... as long as the positioning is the same. The room will have the same modes regardless of which sub you are playing so its an apples to apples comparison.