60' x 30' Great Room suggestions

[mattblalock]

I have been reading here for a long time and have learned much from all of you. Thank you so much for this invaluable resource. It has now come time that I bow and ask for help as I have a rather special situation not often discussed. I have a massive room that needs some love.

The room is a great room open to the kitchen and the dining area and has two sitting areas. It's big. The floors are hardwood, the room is 8' high all around. I have attached an illustration to show you what it looks like.

[Well, since the forum rules say no images, I can't show ya. So this whole discussion may be moot.]

i28.tinypic DOT com/jpfyhe.png

My listening habits are about evenly music and movies. Movies are usually a small affair, me and a friend on that center sofa. Music is another story. Sometimes upwards of 25 or 30 people.

I have a budget of about $2,000 for the receiver and foundation speakers. I will be begin only with left and right front and a sub woofer. I am open to second hand from eBay or elsewhere. The only thing I absolutely know I want is a dual zone for sound on the deck. I plan to move later to a 7.1 system in the main room, and a separate for the outdoors.

Also, before it is suggested, I likely cannot audition anything because the only home theater store (if you can even call it that) in my city is a Best Buy. It is sad. Instead, I will tell you the sound I like. I like a warm sound from speakers with a well rounded range. The speaker equivalent of a Spanish red wine, maybe? Of course, the large room will affect them greatly. Maybe a good online retailer that allows in-home auditions.

I will appreciate any advice/suggestions for this application and will hopefully be able to offer some advice of my own in the future.

 

[FirstReflection]

First up, your room is over twice the size of my entire apartment, so...congratulations - you destroy me at life...lol

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but what you're asking for - it isn't really possible. Filling that room with sound for a party with upwards of 25 people - doing that with 2 speaker + subwoofer that are placed in essentially one corner really isn't going to work. Either you will have very quiet sound in much of the room that is farther away from the speakers or else people near the speakers will have to endure painfully loud levels.

A much better solution for the party situation would be a distributed audio type of setup with something like in-ceiling speakers spread throughout the room so that the sound is far more even in volume and at a much more pleasing volume for everyone.

Your budget also presents a problem, but I am a little unclear - is this budget strictly for two speakers and a receiver? As in - do you already have the budget set aside for the subwoofer and the patio speakers seperately? If so, that is a little more reasonable, but still rather difficult.

Basically, on the subwoofer side - you're in trouble. You really, really, really need multiple subs in that room. Bass does not "play nice" and remain confined to a given area. Bass spreads out and attempts to occupy all the room that it can. You are literally trying to pressurize a room when it comes to bass - and a room the size of yours simply cannot be filled with any lone subwoofer. If you attempt to get a single subwoofer to play as loudly as the speakers sound when you are seated in your theater area, you are going to drive that subwoofer's amplifer into clipping without question. So...you need multiple subs - there is no ifs ands or buts about that one.

Now, you CAN get speakers that will work well for your theater area. And if you are dead set on using them for parties for the entire room also...well...they won't be anything close to ideal, but they could get the job done.

Something like the Axiom M80 v2 would be a decent way to go. They have the sort of output and sound quality that would be appropriate for your theater area and they would do ok for the party thing - but again, they'd be VERY loud for anyone standing close to them.

On the receiver side, you honestly need a seperate amplifier. You could conceivably drive the M80 v2 to their limits in that room, so upwards of a 400 Watts into 4 Ohm continuous amplifier would be in order or more reasonably, you would probably want to bi-amplify them.

With seperate amps, you wouldn't necessarily need a high end receiver. You'd only need to be sure that it has pre-outs so that you could connect the outboard amps. And almost all but the most entry-level receivers have a 2nd zone output these days, so that should not pose any problem.

 

[shadyJ]

Like firstreflection said, you can't get good bass for the entire room for that budget, but I think you could do it from the sofa where you watch TV.

If you want good bass there, you are limited to a near-field subwoofer setup, which means placing the subwoofer very close to your seating position. You may have a good spot though, in that corner where the sofas meet. You could get a sub that would double as a end table there, if it is tall enough.

I would spend from six to seven hundred on each item: the receiver, the subwoofer, and the speakers. In a space like that I would go with full-range tower speakers.

You can get great deals on receivers at accessories4less.com. There are a lot of affordable receivers there which meet your needs- multi-zone and upgradeable to 7.1.

For tower speakers, two which could fit that budget are the Elemental Designs A6 6T6 towers and the SVS STS towers. As for their warmth, or characteristic sound, I have no idea, all I know is that they are very well-regarded speakers and they fit in the budget with a subwoofer and receiver. Both SVS and ED also make some of the very best subwoofers in the business, and if you buy the speakers from them they will give you a discount on their subs, 5% from SVS and 15% from ED. They are both 6 ohm speakers so make sure whatever receiver you get can handle that- this is especially important since you want to be able to turn it up loud enough so that everyone in a party situation can hear them, so the receiver will really be driven.

There are many good towers though, hopefully you can get more suggestions from others.

As for subwoofers, along with SVS and Elemental Designs, there is also HSU Research and Outlaw Audio. HSU has the VTF2 mk3 and the VTF3 mk3, and Outlaw has the LFM-1 EX, I would guess those would be good for your situation. The HSUs come in nicer finishes so they could be much more passable replacements for an endtable if you set them next to your sofa. The VTF3 is almost ideal in that respect because it is side-firing, so you could aim its cone right at the listener who is only a few feet away. You would really feel the bass there.

If you wanted bass throughout your entire room, place on of these in the center. All you would have to do is up your subwoofer budget by $5,000. I wonder how well that would work.

 

[fredk]

You have a bit of a challenge ahead of you. If you want to fill that room with clean sound, I would suggest that yo look at higher efficiency speakers. My Axiom M80s are a good example of this as are Klipsch speakers (though some do not like the Klipsch sound).

To get the volume up for larger gatherings, you are probably also going to need the extra power of an outboard amp. It dosn't take much power to drive speakers to high volumes in small rooms, but the power required for larger rooms goes up very quickly.

In your situation I would start with higher efficiency mains and a good receiver to see how well they cover the room and add from there. You will probably end up with at least two subs and an additional pair of speakers for larger gatherings.

Check out online direct retailers like Axiom, Aperion and Ascend.

 

[Tomorrow]

You are getting very good advice from the posters, here.

Our great room is roughly 1/2 the size of yours and I struggled to find a good audio fit. Do not expect dynamite performance in a room that size with two mains and a subwoofer. However, getting a 7.1 or .2 or .3 setup eventually will help you distribute your music much more generously and evenly. Unfortunately, I cannot see your room drawing, so I can't make placement suggestions.

If 2 grand is your budget for getting started, it's doable, but diminishes the overall quality potential of your final 7.x system.

I don't necessarily agree with a couple of the speaker choices recommended to you, especially the Klipsch. They are indeed very efficient speakers, but are also the brightest and harshest of the bunch thus far suggested. None of them have the warmth or smoothness you crave. It's unfortunate that you can't audition speakers...they are VERY subjective when it comes to personal preference. A suggestion I would make is the attractive ERA Design line (signalpathint.com), particularly the D14/LCR4/D4 series. They're voiced by (Aerial Acoustics guru) Michael Kelly and reportedly have much the same, warm presentation as AA loudspeakers...at a fraction of the cost.

My strongest recommendation to you is for you to NOT scrimp on a subwoofer. Get the best you can afford. A good sub can make or break a sound system...both musically and for movies.

If you could boost you budget up a bit (easy for me to say, eh?!), you could get a pretty nice setup and prepare you well for the later full setup.

$800 - full featured and adequate receiver (Yamaha, Onkyo, Denon)
$700 - Hsu VTF3-Mk3 subwoofer
$1,000 - ERA Design 4 LCR pair
$250 - all-metal speaker stands from racksandstands.com

(Of course these can be had more cheaply from a used equipment market such as Audiogon.)

When you can afford to upgrade to fill out the system, my next suggestion would be to get a pair of ERA D14 floorstanders, relegating the LCR's to side surround duty and adding a third D4 LCR for center channel work. Then add a second sub.

Then let the upgrade bug bite you like it did all of us.

Good luck in your search.

 

[lsiberian]

I have been reading here for a long time and have learned much from all of you. Thank you so much for this invaluable resource. It has now come time that I bow and ask for help as I have a rather special situation not often discussed. I have a massive room that needs some love.

The room is a great room open to the kitchen and the dining area and has two sitting areas. It's big. The floors are hardwood, the room is 8' high all around. I have attached an illustration to show you what it looks like.

[Well, since the forum rules say no images, I can't show ya. So this whole discussion may be moot.]

i28.tinypic DOT com/jpfyhe.png

My listening habits are about evenly music and movies. Movies are usually a small affair, me and a friend on that center sofa. Music is another story. Sometimes upwards of 25 or 30 people.

I have a budget of about $2,000 for the receiver and foundation speakers. I will be begin only with left and right front and a sub woofer. I am open to second hand from eBay or elsewhere. The only thing I absolutely know I want is a dual zone for sound on the deck. I plan to move later to a 7.1 system in the main room, and a separate for the outdoors.

Also, before it is suggested, I likely cannot audition anything because the only home theater store (if you can even call it that) in my city is a Best Buy. It is sad. Instead, I will tell you the sound I like. I like a warm sound from speakers with a well rounded range. The speaker equivalent of a Spanish red wine, maybe? Of course, the large room will affect them greatly. Maybe a good online retailer that allows in-home auditions.

I will appreciate any advice/suggestions for this application and will hopefully be able to offer some advice of my own in the future.

For music and movies subs have different goals. For music the goal is to get high volumes with low distortion. For movies the goal is to get low frequencies.

Now for 2,000 you can meet those goal with a DIY route. I don't know if your handy with tools, but I can propose subs that would easily fill that room.

If you don't want the DIY route Then we are looking at different options

Do you need lots of volume or is it more of a background for talking etc.


For a receiver go cheap. Get a HK AVR 247 or something equivalent. Then you can put most of your money into the speakers and sub.

It's very possible to fill that room on your budget with a pair of nice speakers and a sub.

 

[mattblalock]

Thank you so much for so much more information. To clarify the budget, it is for the two main speakers and the receiver. I know the sub is out of that budget and I feel more comfortable making that decision. I would like to go for two in the future, but I cannot afford two upfront.

The outdoor speakers are entirely seperate from this discussion and budget.

As for the distribution of the sound for large events. What if I, instead of having this central unit, took another receiver and placed less expensive monitors in the kitchen using a preamp out to play the sound into the other side of the room. This would also allow me to play the deck music, which works well in my eyes.

Having a second area of sound, plus the deck, should create a nice balance. Having maybe come to a conclusion about that, we're still going to need some serious power for the theater area. With this, what sort of things should I be considering in the theater area?

-You suggest dual subs, alright. I will plan to bring in dual subs. Anything in particular I should be considering with them? As for Shady... hmmm, haha, don't think 5k is in the budget for subs... although that is an absolutely beautiful piece of work! The VTF-3 MK3 looks nice. I have nearly decided on the SVS SB12-Plus unless somoene has information to prove me otherwise.

-An external amp to power this central area beyond the receiver. Okay, this isn't something I'd considered. I do believe in the value of that, as I know the power can do considerable things for the sound's quality. I will need some serious direction here. How will this play with a 5.1 setup? Does anyone have a suggestion for what may work well here?

-I am certain towers are the way to go for the fronts. I'd been looking at the M80 v2's. They are a bit pricey but I've seen some on audiogon and eBay for about half that. The A6 from ED looks nice, I'm curious how they sound.

-As someone mentioned Klipsh, I do not care much for them. One of the few brands I've auditioned and found them to be bright and kind of.... off. Certainly not warm or authentic sound.

 

[mattblalock]

You are getting very good advice from the posters, here.

Our great room is roughly 1/2 the size of yours and I struggled to find a good audio fit. Do not expect dynamite performance in a room that size with two mains and a subwoofer. However, getting a 7.1 or .2 or .3 setup eventually will help you distribute your music much more generously and evenly. Unfortunately, I cannot see your room drawing, so I can't make placement suggestions.

If 2 grand is your budget for getting started, it's doable, but diminishes the overall quality potential of your final 7.x system.

I don't necessarily agree with a couple of the speaker choices recommended to you, especially the Klipsch. They are indeed very efficient speakers, but are also the brightest and harshest of the bunch thus far suggested. None of them have the warmth or smoothness you crave. It's unfortunate that you can't audition speakers...they are VERY subjective when it comes to personal preference. A suggestion I would make is the attractive ERA Design line (signalpathint.com), particularly the D14/LCR4/D4 series. They're voiced by (Aerial Acoustics guru) Michael Kelly and reportedly have much the same, warm presentation as AA loudspeakers...at a fraction of the cost.

My strongest recommendation to you is for you to NOT scrimp on a subwoofer. Get the best you can afford. A good sub can make or break a sound system...both musically and for movies.

If you could boost you budget up a bit (easy for me to say, eh?!), you could get a pretty nice setup and prepare you well for the later full setup.

$800 - full featured and adequate receiver (Yamaha, Onkyo, Denon)
$700 - Hsu VTF3-Mk3 subwoofer
$1,000 - ERA Design 4 LCR pair
$250 - all-metal speaker stands from racksandstands.com

(Of course these can be had more cheaply from a used equipment market such as Audiogon.)

When you can afford to upgrade to fill out the system, my next suggestion would be to get a pair of ERA D14 floorstanders, relegating the LCR's to side surround duty and adding a third D4 LCR for center channel work. Then add a second sub.

Then let the upgrade bug bite you like it did all of us.

Good luck in your search.

Thank you for the detailed advice. I am not familiar with this company at all. I will do some reading and update you as I go. They indeed look nice. As for the sub, that's the direction I am leaning. I know the value of a fantastic subwoofer.

As for the receiver, any model that you particularly enjoy?

 

[mattblalock]

For music and movies subs have different goals. For music the goal is to get high volumes with low distortion. For movies the goal is to get low frequencies.

Now for 2,000 you can meet those goal with a DIY route. I don't know if your handy with tools, but I can propose subs that would easily fill that room.

If you don't want the DIY route Then we are looking at different options

Do you need lots of volume or is it more of a background for talking etc.


For a receiver go cheap. Get a HK AVR 247 or something equivalent. Then you can put most of your money into the speakers and sub.

It's very possible to fill that room on your budget with a pair of nice speakers and a sub.

I am handy with tools and such, what is it that you are proposing?

As for going cheap on the receiver, that seems counter intuitive. Are you suggesting getting nice speakers and a receiver that I intend to replace in the not-so-distant future?

 

[mattblalock]

Do you need lots of volume or is it more of a background for talking etc.

I don't need the volume I believe earlier posts assumed. Enough volume that 20 or 30 people wouldn't drown it out, but we're not having a rave. Usually just conversation. The ability to rock out from time to time is nice, though.

 

[lsiberian]

I am handy with tools and such, what is it that you are proposing?

As for going cheap on the receiver, that seems counter intuitive. Are you suggesting getting nice speakers and a receiver that I intend to replace in the not-so-distant future?

Cheap in the price sense not the build quality since. I suggest an Onkyo 805 or higher. Don't get the 806 or 807 they suck.

If your handy then you can build your own subs and blow away the commerical ones. I suggest a you look at building a pair of Kappa's, but if you want simpler I can specify those too. Like a Maelstorm build.

 

[Tomorrow]

Thank you for the detailed advice. I am not familiar with this company at all. I will do some reading and update you as I go. They indeed look nice. As for the sub, that's the direction I am leaning. I know the value of a fantastic subwoofer.

As for the receiver, any model that you particularly enjoy?

I was trying to keep you close to your budget, with 'warm' speakers.

Here is a suggestion for a receiver that will do... http://store.audioholics.com/product/2364/66343/yamaha-rx-v765-surround-receiver ...$600.

I'd steer clear of the Axioms as they're reportedly neutral to bright sounding (not warm) and the M80's are 4 ohm speakers. You will need some pricey equipment to drive them adequately.

If the sub is not out of your 2 grand budget, then the Yamaha receiver, ERA speakers, and and stands will get you a great start. For a few bucks more, you could start with those lovely D14's. These are quite pretty and have real wood veneer, by the way, as opposed to the vinyl wrap on the Axioms.

EDIT: Perhaps Dave McC will chime in. He's an owner and fan of ERA loudspeakers.

Also, if you can find a Yamaha RX-V2600 used, usually they're at a good price, this would do nicely for your setup.

 

[FNG212]

I can't add a lot of advice other than to pose a question: Have you considered using a series of in-ceiling speakers for the non-Movie area? I have The Speaker Company in-ceiling speakers ($50/pair) and love them. They would still benefit from a sub though.

Just $.02

 

[mattblalock]

@FNG212. Unfortunately, the room is on the ground floor with a room above. The cost of installing the speakers in the ceiling would likely be quite high. I have not looked into that, I am making an assumption about that cost. Does anyone know? I already have 6 in-ceiling's from Best Buy ($200 each, can't remember the numbers) from an auction. They were display models.

I wil look into the cost of that.

 

[mattblalock]

@ Tomorrow

That's the same thing I'd heard about the Axioms. I really like the ERA's. I will look around for some. There is actually a dealer for them about 2 hours away, so I may be able to listen to them Wednesday!

As for the Yamaha RX-V2600, its a bit old. Looks like I'd probably have 200 in it as apposed to 400 in the Yamaha RX-V765. Which would be best? The 765 is newer and handles video. Not a big deal, I want good sound. The Harmony remote will make ease of pushing all the buttons and such, so no worries.

 

[mattblalock]

Cheap in the price sense not the build quality since. I suggest an Onkyo 805 or higher. Don't get the 806 or 807 they suck.

If your handy then you can build your own subs and blow away the commerical ones. I suggest a you look at building a pair of Kappa's, but if you want simpler I can specify those too. Like a Maelstorm build.

I think I'd prefer to just buy one prebuilt. The time/money ratio says to just buy. I run my own business, so time is more important than money.

Saying suck, what subwoofer would you recommend for this big room?

 

[Tomorrow]

One won't really do the job. Eventually, I think you'll need two at a minimum. The SVS you looked at or the Hsu's give you best bang for the buck. You can spend a lot more and get a lot more sub performance with other suggestions. But I think you don't want to spend thousands...correct?

 

[mattblalock]

Some awesome news! There is a fantastic audio shop two hours away called Audio Advice. They carry some wonderful speakers and have already proven to be helpful so I think I'll be heading over there on Wednesday.

Will the ERA D4's be enough for my setup? They are quite little and seem... paltry when compared to the D14's.

 

[mattblalock]

@Tomorrow

No, thousands are not in the budget. I do plan on using two or even three over time, but something that will perform well will be awesome for now.

 

[Tomorrow]

Some awesome news! There is a fantastic audio shop two hours away called Audio Advice. They carry some wonderful speakers and have already proven to be helpful so I think I'll be heading over there on Wednesday.

Will the ERA D4's be enough for my setup? They are quite little and seem... paltry when compared to the D14's.

No. I could see the D4 for use as rear or maybe side surrounds in a 7 channel system. I'd recommend the LCR's for side surrounds and center channel and the D14 for mains (if you go the ERA route). That is one huge room you're trying to fill with music/theater audio. You need decent sized/number of drivers to maximize your sound pressure levels.

Member Davemcc loves his D4's and says they're too good to waste on rear surrounds. But you have a room to fill...much larger than his.

I'm really glad that you're getting an opportunity to audition some speakers, including the ERA's, for yourself. There is no substitute for letting your ears make your ultimate choice in loudspeakers before spending hundreds or thousands of dollars on them. Our suggestions should only help point you down a reasonable path.