Suggestions for Stereo setup?

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zvardanian

Audioholic Intern
Hello. Thank you for your time. I have read countless threads at this point, but I'm on information overload.

I have a budget of around 1000. At this time, I don't have the room for a full multichannel setup, so I was going 2.1 in the living room (medium sized room at best). I have original thick oak floors and a raised foundation home for reference...so it doesn't always play nice with sound.

At this time, I have do own a Marantz sr5003, which for stereo playback, has been great. Unfortuntaley, the speakers I'm running are a pair of Pioneer HPM-100's...yup, oldies, albeit near mint. I'm looking for a little more refinement and less bloat.

In terms of the subwoofer, I already possess a small but mighty X-Sub from Av123. No complaints...it's placed in the corner so it does well enough for now.

I was looking at something like the Axioms (M60) or maybe even the MTS-01 (though I suspect 4-6 ohm load is too much for the Marantz).

Neutral or somewhat bright sound is fine...nothing that feels too recessed. I find my current pioneers to be bright.

I do have concern over the build quality of the Axioms as I had seen a review of the M80 (v1) and it appears the bracing was poor and the stuffed material was at a minimum. Not too certain if this applies to the M60V2.

I would prefer a floorstander...any thoughts? As I said, I've read so much I'm jsut not too certain what to think at this point. :)
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
First thought - decouple your speakers and your subwoofer. In a raised foundation home, any movement (shaking/vibration) of the speakers themselves will easily be transmitted into your floors. The floors shake the walls, the walls shake the ceiling and the rest of the house! And before you know it, you are not listening to the sound produced by your speakers, you are listening to the sound produced by your house!

Decoupliing is simply putting a shock absorber and weight distributor inbetween the bottom of the speakers/subwoofer and the floor. This greatly reduces the transmission of energy from the speakers into the floor and the audible result is much tighter, cleaner sound, with far less room resonance, bloat, rattling and "leaking" of sound into other rooms of the house!

I love the Auralex SubDude and GRAMMA risers for decoupling purposes (they are $50 each), but it is certainly possible to use other products :)

Next - from the sounds of things, you likely have quite a reflective room. Hard wood floors and you didn't mention any acoustic treatments on your walls. This means that sound is easily and strongly reflected from the surfaces in your room and that means that even a moderately bright speaker is going to sound extra bright in your particular room.

More often than not, when people say that they don't mind a "bright" speaker, what they really mean is that they simply like to hear a lot of detail. Some people like a mellow sound, but from what you've said, it seems as though you like a very detailed sound where each note is crisp, clear and well deliniated. Achieving this sound is more a matter of eliminating distortion than it is about being "bright" or "warm". That said, in your room, it's going to be vital that we balance the high frequency output with the reflectiveness of your room.

Your little X-sub is a great performer when mated to small satellite speakers. But if the plan is to get some tower speakers for stereo at this point, I would (with respect) say that the X-sub will not really be able to keep up its end of the deal. If you have it in a corner and not decoupled, right now, much of what your hearing is room reinforcement of the sound and not really the genuine output of the X-sub itself. Your room is ringing in sympathy with the subwoofer, but the problem is that that really is not high quality bass and technically speaking, is actually distortion.

My honest advice to you would be to take your $1000 budget and use it to purchase a new subwoofer and a pair of good bookshelf speakers. Rather than try to have tower speakers handle all of the bass on their own, or try to have the X-Sub keep up when it really isn't up to the task, I would much sooner see you purchase a high quality bookshelf/subwoofer combo. This will give you better bass quality and fuller coverage of the entire audio range.

With your budget and the description of the sound that you would like as well as the room and the equipment that you already have, here is what I would recommend most highly:

A pair of Ascend Acoustics CBM-170SE bookshelf speakers - $368 shipped

An HSU STF-2 subwoofer - $382 shipped

An Auralex GRAMMA riser to put beneath the subwoofer - $50 shipped

Some 26"-28" speaker stands and be sure that they have a nice, large platform on which to put the speakers - figure around $100

Auralex MoPads to decouple the speakers from the stands - $40 shipped

So that combo is around $940 - give or take depending on what speaker stands you buy. The decoupling products (GRAMMA and MoPads) are vital in your room and the quality of sound you will get from this combo exceeds, IMO, what you would get from tower speakers.

The tweeter used in the Ascend speakers is of a considerably higher price bracket and quality than what you will typically find in other lower-cost speakers. The CBM-170SE itself has incredibly flat frequency response and the lack of distortion in that tweeter results in very highly detailed and deliniated sound.

As a final thought, I would recommend that you connect this system in the following way:

In your receiver, set the front L/R speakers to "Large" and set the subwoofer to "Off". Run speaker wire from the receiver's Front L/R speaker outputs to the STF-2 subwoofer. Then run speaker wire from the speaker outputs on the STF-2 subwoofer to the CBM-170SE speakers. On the STF-2 subwoofer, set the cross-over switch to "In". This will activate the subwoofer's own internal cross-over.

You can get a much more even and precise "blend" between the subwoofer and the speakers this way.

Hope this is helpful and best of luck in your decision!
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Have you considered AV123 rocket towers? They are 8 ohm speakers, and currently about the same price as the Axiom m80s. I have heard nothing but good things about the Rockets.
 
Z

zvardanian

Audioholic Intern
Hi Reflection.

This is fantastic advice. You have no idea how braindrained I am about this. :)

I think you are correct... picking up the subwoofer stand is a must. Should I attempt to keep the subwoofer away from the corners as well?

I was actually looking at the SVS, STS deal after I posted last night. A pair of STS "towers" and one of the 12 inch SVS subs. I think it's around 1299? If I expand my budget a little, it seems I could reach for one of these. I do spend most of my time in Home Theatre. About 80/20.

If I can spend that much, I suppose I could look at CMT-340's with stands along with your sub? How do they compare to SVS subs? I've read that the SVS subs are quite a bargain for what you get, and I don't mind forking over a little extra for additional quality.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
You're very welcome! :)

Decoupling your subwoofer and speakers is an absolute must, IMO. The Auralex products are not that expensive and they do a terrific job. The GRAMMA in particular is just an excellent value, IMO.

I know that there are many people around here who like to debate subwoofers. They will point to all sorts of measurements and anecdotal evidence in order to "prove" that one subwoofer is better than another.

In reality, the sound that you hear is a combination of the subwoofer's output and the room's interaction with that subwoofer. The room plays basically an equal role in the final sound that you hear. As such, the only comparisons of good subwoofers that can really be made are measurements taken in an anechoic chamber!

The simple fact is that human hearing is really not very good when it comes to bass frequencies. We have a very hard time distinguishing distortion from the original output, we almost completely fail at localizing where bass is coming from and in terms of audible detail, we are far more likely to process cues from the harmonics and higher frequencies rather than the true bass frequencies themselves.

Basically, what I am saying is that once you reach a certain performance level - where output is consistent and flat down to the lowest notes of human hearing and distortion of the actual output is kept below a certain level - talking about one subwoofer being "better" than another is really just splitting hairs and more often than not, comes down to expectations and presumptions rather than actual audible differences. When people WANT to hear a difference, they do! So that is why you'll see people swearing that HSU is better than SVS or that SVS is better than HSU or that some other brand like Epik is better than both of them or on and on. The bottom line is that they are all at a similar level of very good performance and while there may indeed be measurable differences, human hearing becomes the limiting factor and in a true, blind test, things like where the subwoofer is placed in the room, how it is set up and the orientation of the seating are going to make a MUCH larger difference than the comparative output of these various, good subwoofers.

If you are willing to increase your budget, all sorts of possibilities open up. That is a big reason why making a final decision can be so difficult!

My honest advice would be to keep your budget in mind and stick with the CBM-170SE speakers. The CMT-340SE really are suited to a larger room. They are designed with a wider horizontal dispersion and the MTM design means that you get a comb-filtered response in the vertical dispersion. Our brains are excellent at ignoring comb filtering, but when you have hard floors and an untreated ceiling, vertical reflections play a big part in how clear or muddy things sound.

Bottom line is that the CBM-170SE speakers are better suited to your room. They are also better suited to a smooth and effective cross-over to a capable subwoofer.

If you are willing to up your budget a bit, I would spend that money on a HSU VTF-2 MK3. Compared to the STF-2 that I previously recommended, the VTF-2 MK3 simply plays lower. While the STF-2 begins to roll off at around 35Hz and is down 3dB at 25Hz, the VTF-2 MK3 can reach convincingly down to 20Hz to give you genuinely "full range" sound. The VTF-2 MK3 has the handy attribute of also being the exact same dimensions as the Auralex GRAMMA riser - so they are a perfect fit for one another :p

There is always the temptation to spend just a little bit more and hope for just a little bit better performance. I'll be blunt with you and let you know that actually hearing audible differences is a much more subtle matter than most reviewers and audiophiles make it out to be. Are there audible differences to be had - improvements? Yes. But in truly blind tests, where people are not influenced by their expectations or there pre-hand knowledge of one speaker being more expensive than another, it turns out that our ability to hear genuine differences is not nearly as good as people believe. All sorts of other factors come into play and the speakers themselves matter less than things like how tired you are when you are listening, or how much you are focusing your attention on a particular note or voice.

Your at a great point where you have a decent, but still limited budget, some experience with entry-level equipment and a strong desire to really see how far this whole audio quality thing really goes! What I recommend most at a point like this is to stick to your budget and buy equipment that really delivers the tried and true, scientifically sound principles of good audio. Flat frequency response, even and rolling decay as you move off axis, low distortion and capable dynamics and output. These are the exact traits of the Ascend speakers and HSU subwoofer that I am recommending and that is why I recommend them so highly.

What I am trying to establish for you is a base line. Something to which you will be able to compare all other speaker set ups from here on out. Are these Ascend/HSU speakers the final word on audio quality? No! Of course not. But what they are are scientifically sound, accurate speakers that will really reveal to you what accurate sound is all about.

From there, you can really start to open your audio world. From this sort of design and quality level, things are all about refinement and, to be honest, character. More and more, what you will find is that speakers are often not voiced to be genuinely accurate. Instead, they are voiced to offer something "different". Something distinct that will catch your ears' attention.

But I like to start people off at a solid base line. Get to know what a really flat and linear set up sounds like and from there, it becomes much easier to start picking out the much more subtle nuances that will either suit your personal preferences or not :)

Edit: Forgot to answer your question about corner placement of the sub. In general, what happens as you move any speaker closer to any wall is that the low frequencies get reinforced (made louder) by the reflections off of the wall and by the wall itself vibrating in sympathy with the subwoofer. The problem is that, as I said, now you are hearing more of the room's interaction with the subwoofer, rather than the subwoofer itself.

For movies, pure loudness of output was often the goal. When the only bass you're hearing is a the rumble of an explosion, it doesn't matter all that much if the rumble is room resonance or genuine subwoofer output! But if you are listening to music, such room reinforcement causes the bass to sound muddy and indistinct.

When you are using a single subwoofer, the very best placement is actually out into the room at a position that is about 25% of the room's width away from the side wall and about 25% of the room's length away from the front wall. But this sort of placement is not usually feasible because that would put the subwoofer out into the room! Most people want to keep the subwoofer to the perimeter of the room. When you do that, the best placement is often about 1/3rd of the room's width away from the side wall with the subwoofer up against the front wall.

Usually, you will have a few places in the room where it would be aesthetically and practically acceptable to put the subwoofer. What works well is to actually move your seat out of the way and put your subwoofer in the spot where you would normally sit. Now play some bass sweeps or bass heavy music. Go squat (so that you are at your seated height) in those candidate positions. You will find that some sound loud and boomy, some sound much more quiet and hopefully, some will sound quite even, smooth and articulate. Switch positions now. Put your subwoofer at the spot where the bass sounded best and go sit back in your normal position :)
 
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zvardanian

Audioholic Intern
Thank you, again. You are most helpful :).

So... these subs are a killer...

I've priced these two including shipping and tax. Since I live in California, I'll need to pay tax on the HSU gear. At this point, and given the prices, it would seem the SVS sub is a better buy, no? I've read that the VTF-3 is sort of the magic sub, so I assume the little brother is close to it, minus a little oomph. But I'm not certain. I have no loyalty to any brand, just want to make certain I get the most bang for my buck.

VTF-2 MK3 - 659
PB12-NSD - 656

In terms of these auralex pads, is is necessary to have one too large instead of smaller than the sub base? I was tempted to just rest the sub on some thick blankets (1 - 2 inches). Seems to perform the same function, and I can put to use the excess of blankets my GF has stored in our closet.

Side Note:

I'm a little blessed she doesn't care too much about my habits...as long as I pay the mortgage for my portion (and other bills). Since I do most of the housework (dishes, laundry, vaccuming, tidying, cleaning), she has what I like to call, "no *****ing room". It's glorious ;)
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
I'd have no qualms in going with the SVS PB12-NSD rather than the HSU VTF-2 MK3. They are both very good subwoofers. If it is more convenient to get one over the other, by all means, go for it!

In regards to the decoupling device, you simply need to be sure that the subwoofer will be sitting on the decoupling riser and not on the floor in any way. Almost all subwoofers have some sort of "feet" on the bottom, so you just need to be sure that the "feet" will be on the decoupling riser and not hanging over the edges! This is especially important with a down-firing sub like the VTF-2 MK3. You absolutely have to have the "feet" so that there is clearance below the subwoofer to allow the cone to move and create sound!

Several thick, cushion-y blankets would probably work as a decent decoupling device. You would, of course, want to make sure that the sub isn't going to tip over! Blankets are not the most stable things in the world :p But the whole point is just to get some sort of shock absorber that will prevent the physical shaking of the subwoofer's box from reaching the floor and physically shaking the floor in sympathy.

If you are going to use the blankets, then I would certainly recommend the front-firing SVS over the down firing HSU. I would be downright surprised if the "feet" of the HSU did not sink low enough into the blankets to cause a real problem for the down-firing driver! The front-firing SVS won't have that problem, so that seems like the better buy in this case :)
 
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jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
I've priced these two including shipping and tax. Since I live in California, I'll need to pay tax on the HSU gear. At this point, and given the prices, it would seem the SVS sub is a better buy, no? I've read that the VTF-3 is sort of the magic sub, so I assume the little brother is close to it, minus a little oomph. But I'm not certain. I have no loyalty to any brand, just want to make certain I get the most bang for my buck.
Depending on where exactly you live in CA, you can simply visit HSU, and save on the shipping. Also, IIRC, maybe you can talk em down a bit further. I think someone did that before. Maybe they have an older demo there they want to move, who knows. However, it might be hard to find the time depending on your work schedule, because I think they have the typical M-F 9-5 hours.

That said, the PB12 is a high value.

Oh yeah, for corner loading, I've never once heard a sub shoved in a corner that wasn't extremely localizable. OTOH, corner loading gets you more efficiency/output, which in turn means less distortion. I've read that the best of both worlds comes when you can significantly trap for bass, for then you can corner load for better efficiency while still having smooth response.
 
Z

zvardanian

Audioholic Intern
If I did by the gramma, and matched it with the SVS sub, I need to get the Great Gramma, correct?

I assume having any part of the sub hanging over would translate to poor sound?
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
I assume having any part of the sub hanging over would translate to poor sound?
No. Just worry about getting that later. Just get the sub first. If the pad is simply large enough to have the feet fit, then you're enjoying the decoupling benefits.
 
Z

zvardanian

Audioholic Intern
I had posted before I saw yours. :)

I live in Northern California, and I think HSU is in Anaheim, so it's about a 6 hour drive. Good idea otherwise...when I saw the tax option I was hoping they were somewhere near the bay area.

I'm still debating. Down firing with raised foundation and wood floors seems harder to accomodate.
 
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