New and confused about my setup

[Jacen101307]

Hello everyone, I recently changed my HT set up and am having problems getting the sound I want, and to add insult to injury I think I bit off more than I can chew being as I chose the Denon AVR 1709 for my receiver. The problem that I am having is with my center channel sound, sometimes it sounds like the people speaking were directing their voice right at the microphone used in recording them and it doesnt sound life like. This is my set up:

5 Mirage nanosat speakers
1 Omni S8 mirage Subwoofer
1 Mirage Nano CC
Denon AVR-1709

With Digital optical input from:

Verizon Fios HDTV set top box
Playstation 3

Now to explain the settings on the AVR, I used the Audyssey set up at first but still wasn’t happy.
Coming from the Verizon Fios box the setting goes to Dolby Digital. The speaker settings are as follows
FR 80 HZ, +6.5 DB, 13FT
C 80 HZ, +10 DB , 13FT
FL 80HZ, +6.5 DB, 14 FT
SR 80 HZ, +5.5 DB, 5FT
SL 80HZ, +5.5 DB, 5FT
SW -6.0 DB, 12 FT

With this set up it seems the center channel picks up sounds that I think should be compressed such as when a voice goes too high and no longer sounds smooth. The same thing happens with the playstaion 3 during BD movies when using the AV setting Bit stream but not with linear PCM which causes the receiver to switch to Pro logic II and sounds much cleaner. With music I don’t have this issue or it is not noticeable. Am I wrong in thinking that DTS and DD should sound better than PCM considering it is being sent direct and with PCM it is being decoded by the Playstation? The distortion is not always present so I am assuming that my CC is ok and not damaged, it’s just the pitch of some voices at certain times that gives me that annoying feeling that something is not right with the sound, kind of like that feeling of some one running their fingers down a chalkboard annoyance. It really disturbs my movie experience because I'm so focused on catching those imperfections.

Any Ideas as to what I can do?

 

[adwilk]

Just glancing at it, it looks like your center is set pretty hot. Have you tried backing it off a bit?

 

[Jacen101307]

Yes I have turned it down to 6.5 and below, while it does seem to blend better and the voices seem to be a bit better it still happens on certain voices and tones. Im wondering if it should be on 120 HZ or between 90 and 120, but if I'm understanding things right with the crossover part of it, all that does is adjust the LFE side of things and the amount of bass being sent to the speaker. An example of one movie I can give which a lot of people have probably seen is Iron man, when ever tony stark speaks it sounds so boxy, like the sound is coming from the speaker and not the character. Another is Batman Begins, Alfreds voice at times on DD went high and just didnt sound smooth , more of a forced sound VS PLII where it sounded smooth as silk. Im sorry if I cant paint a perfect picture of what I'm hearing but what I do know is when i was using 10 year old bose accousticmass 6 and a 11 year old panasonic receiver I didnt have these problems, so either my new set up is just picking up imperfections that my old didnt or I am the problem by not having it set up right. Thanks for any and all help.

 

[CraigV]

80hz is too low a crossover point for the Nanosats. Try 100, even though that may be too low also. 120 is about the upper limit that you should be crossing over at.

You could get an SPL meter from Radio Shack & check the levels that way. Audessy works better with direct speakers rather than something like the Omni’s that spread the sound around as much as they do.

 

[Highbar]

Now to explain the settings on the AVR, I used the Audyssey set up at first but still wasn’t happy.
Coming from the Verizon Fios box the setting goes to Dolby Digital. The speaker settings are as follows
FR 80 HZ, +6.5 DB, 13FT
C 80 HZ, +10 DB , 13FT
FL 80HZ, +6.5 DB, 14 FT
SR 80 HZ, +5.5 DB, 5FT
SL 80HZ, +5.5 DB, 5FT
SW -6.0 DB, 12 FT

So first I would suggest settings closer to 0db:
FR +1
C +4.5
FL +1
SR 0
SL 0
SW I would leave at -6 but I like a lot of bass.

I'm guessing that you are just hearing things that your old setup didn't pick up. You have to remember that most voices aren't recorded when the scene is shot but afterward in a studio where the actor is "talking into a mic".

I'll have to go back and watch those movies again and see if I notice anything. The difference between DD/LPCM and PLII is that DD/LPCM are individual audio channels for each speaker. With PLII you have 2 channels and the others are matrixed out of them. You may not like the sound of the speakers, did you audition a lot before you picked what you have?

As far as the crossover setting you are right that it more deals with the bass frequencies, the thing you need to remember is that when you set it up at 120Hz or even 100Hz you start to "localize" the bass sounds as those frequencies aren't omni directional like lower bass notes. If you set it too high you will even start to hear male voices come from your sub woofer I would probably up it to 100Hz and see if that helps.

Also do you have any of the effects on on the receiver? IE the concert hall setting or anything? Make sure that is all off.

 

[CraigV]

I'm guessing that you are just hearing things that your old setup didn't pick up. You have to remember that most voices aren't recorded when the scene is shot but afterward in a studio where the actor is "talking into a mic".

.

If that were true, there would be lip-sync issues in all movies, not just foreign language films.

 

[rnatalli]

80hz is too low a crossover point for the Nanosats. Try 100, even though that may be too low also. 120 is about the upper limit that you should be crossing over at.

You could get an SPL meter from Radio Shack & check the levels that way. Audessy works better with direct speakers rather than something like the Omni’s that spread the sound around as much as they do.

+1 Exactly what I was thinking.

 

[Jacen101307]

Thanks , Ill give it go and see what happens. Im hoping that the speaker isnt defective or damaged and this will solve the problem. Since its not a constant thing and only on certain tones I think that the magnet is still attached and in place.

 

[Jacen101307]

So first I would suggest settings closer to 0db:
FR +1
C +4.5
FL +1
SR 0
SL 0
SW I would leave at -6 but I like a lot of bass.

I'm guessing that you are just hearing things that your old setup didn't pick up. You have to remember that most voices aren't recorded when the scene is shot but afterward in a studio where the actor is "talking into a mic".

I'll have to go back and watch those movies again and see if I notice anything. The difference between DD/LPCM and PLII is that DD/LPCM are individual audio channels for each speaker. With PLII you have 2 channels and the others are matrixed out of them. You may not like the sound of the speakers, did you audition a lot before you picked what you have?

As far as the crossover setting you are right that it more deals with the bass frequencies, the thing you need to remember is that when you set it up at 120Hz or even 100Hz you start to "localize" the bass sounds as those frequencies aren't omni directional like lower bass notes. If you set it too high you will even start to hear male voices come from your sub woofer I would probably up it to 100Hz and see if that helps.

Also do you have any of the effects on on the receiver? IE the concert hall setting or anything? Make sure that is all off.

I looked at a lot of different sets but the nano really hooked me because I wanted smaller speakers that sound better and fuller than Bose. It just strikes me as odd that PLII sounds better and smoother. And the receiver has no other effects turned on. Denon has just so much too it that im starting to think I should have listened to best buy when they said Onkyo was much more user freindly. And also on a side note, the louder i turn up the volume, the less I hear the noise as well, as if the clarity gets better the louder it goes.

 

[jostenmeat]

Just glancing at it, it looks like your center is set pretty hot. Have you tried backing it off a bit?

Jacen, I bet you might you have poor speaker placement of center. Is it like behind the tv, or way below it (with having a coffee table blocking it out), or even shoved back in a shelf . . .

Yes I have turned it down to 6.5 and below, while it does seem to blend better and the voices seem to be a bit better it still happens on certain voices and tones. Im wondering if it should be on 120 HZ or between 90 and 120, but if I'm understanding things right with the crossover part of it, all that does is adjust the LFE side of things and the amount of bass being sent to the speaker. An example of one movie I can give which a lot of people have probably seen is Iron man, when ever tony stark speaks it sounds so boxy, like the sound is coming from the speaker and not the character. Another is Batman Begins, Alfreds voice at times on DD went high and just didnt sound smooth , more of a forced sound VS PLII where it sounded smooth as silk. Im sorry if I cant paint a perfect picture of what I'm hearing but what I do know is when i was using 10 year old bose accousticmass 6 and a 11 year old panasonic receiver I didnt have these problems, so either my new set up is just picking up imperfections that my old didnt or I am the problem by not having it set up right. Thanks for any and all help.

I assume blurays. Both titles listed are Dolby TrueHD. Look into your PS3 settings, and make sure that DRC is set to off. (TrueHD tracks use an autoflagged DRC, where DTS and PCM this is a non-issue). IIRC, the PS3 will retain this setting. THIS WILL MAKE A HUGE DIFFERENCE IN DIALOGUE WITH SOME MOVIES.

The other culprit that comes immediately to mind, with your description so far, is simply "sibilance" from the speaker. the "ssss" sound, particularly with female voices.

You could get an SPL meter from Radio Shack & check the levels that way. Audessy works better with direct speakers rather than something like the Omni’s that spread the sound around as much as they do.

May I please ask you where you read this? I'm not saying you are wrong, but I've never once read this, and I've been following Audyssey for quite a while now. After all, if Audyssey is measuring first reflections, second reflections, in the time domain, I'm not sure why this tech is less useful for an omni. In fact, you could almost say that it was MORE useful. Or that's my instinct.

If that were true, there would be lip-sync issues in all movies, not just foreign language films.

Have you not watched the LOTR extras/making of?

 

[Davemcc]

My suggestion is to turn Audyssey off. It's easy to adjust the individual speaker levels on the Denon receivers and it will remember your settings when you turn the unit off (unlike the Onkyo). You can adjust your levels using an SPL meter or simply fine tune it over time, making adjustments on the fly according to your taste or source material.

Personally, I haven't had much luck with Audyssey. Some people absolutely love it and wouldn't want to be without it. I don't use it at all. At the very least, it couldn't hurt to turn the Audyssey off for a while and see if you like the results.

 

[jostenmeat]

My suggestion is to turn Audyssey off. It's easy to adjust the individual speaker levels on the Denon receivers and it will remember your settings when you turn the unit off (unlike the Onkyo). You can adjust your levels using an SPL meter or simply fine tune it over time, making adjustments on the fly according to your taste or source material.

Personally, I haven't had much luck with Audyssey. Some people absolutely love it and wouldn't want to be without it. I don't use it at all. At the very least, it couldn't hurt to turn the Audyssey off for a while and see if you like the results.

IMO, even if we were to assume Audyssey actually did more harm than good, I would be hard pressed to believe that it would be the primary culprit. I'm betting it will most likely be a combination of autoflagged DRC, poor speaker placement, and/or poor speaker design.

But, sure, might as well try turning Audyssey off as well.

 

[Davemcc]

But, sure, might as well try turning Audyssey off as well.

It doesn't cost anything to try. And it rules out one more factor in the elimination process.

 

[Jacen101307]

The center channel is mounted above the tv with the top half (where the actual speaker is) of the box showing, the bottom 1/2 is covered only in sight as there is about a half foot of space between the back of the tv and the speaker box. And yes the "ssss" really gets on my nerves too but I understand that is just speech( though i wish there was some way to clean that up too). I will change the setting on my PS3 too, I always have let that stay on Auto, thanks for that, im hoping when I go home and change all this it will be a huge difference, thanks to everyone ho has helped me out. Im keeping my fingers crossed because even though 1,000 dollars isnt a lot compared to what some of you here have spent on Audio perfection it is a lot to me and I hope the money was not wasted. If all else fails I guess I can just switch out my receiver to my old panasonic, no DTS but atleast it made those old Bose AM 6 sound "decent" with no center at all. If I can get the sound from a BD to produce well then i will just chalk up the other sound problems to Verizon fios.

 

[Davemcc]

If all else fails I guess I can just switch out my receiver to my old panasonic

No. That will not be a good idea. The Denon has many options to tailor the sound to your preference.

Edit - You also have manual eq for each channel. If you can identify the frequencies that cause your issue, you can use the built-in eq to drop those frequencies a couple of dB without affecting the rest of the system.

 

[Highbar]

Are you saying that your center speakers is behind the front edge of the tv? From the seating position can you see that speaker? If your center is behind the tv you may be hearing reflected sounds coming off the back of the tv then off the wall and then to you. If that's the case try moving the speaker so it's at least even with the front of the tv, omni directional speakers need room around them.

 

[Jacen101307]

When seated I can see the top half of the speaker, perhaps I will raise it some so that I can see the full speaker box and not just the speaker itself. Ill let everyone know in about an hour if things have improved, thanks everyone.

 

[CraigV]

I have a feeling some of what you’re hearing are frequencies that were there all along, they just didn’t come out through the Bose. Also, the manner in which the sound comes out of the speaker means that an above the display position isn’t ideal.

 

[Jacen101307]

Well atleast on the Verizon box the advice everyone gave me really helped out. I havent had a chance to try out the playstation yet since my wife is using the TV but i will keep everyone posted, thanks again for all the help. I think it will make a difference though because even though i have never like the verizon fios sound these adjustments have made a big difference. I have no idea why the Audyssey had all the speakers at +6.5 DB and higher but changing those and asjusting the HZ was a good move, thanks everyone. Will post results with BD in a short time.

 

[Davemcc]

One other thing to consider, since the center speaker may have been too close to the TV and causing odd reflections, is that Audyssey may have set the distance parameter for the center channel to an inappropriate setting. This would cause a time correction error at the center speaker that may be causing the issue. Double check the speaker distance settings.