Need help on speakers for a business

D

dannieboiz

Audiophyte
I'm researching some options for a business that's 2 stories, about 30ftx30ft each floors and both floors is just a wide open spaces with no walls.

It will have music playing at med-high volume for 12+ hours a day.

We're thinking 6 wall mount speakers on each floors and a sub or two to balance it out.

I'm looking for some pointers on brands/models to look at. I'm an home audio guy but never set up one for a business before.

I had some Polk RTi6 as my fronts in my HT which I think sounded great, but that's in a 10 by 10 room.

I had some Klipsch 1.1 for my stereo speakers which I really like as well, but I had to combine system due to lack of space so I got some RTi10 to replace my RTi6 instead.

I'm trying to spend around $2k just for the speakers this way I can still have a little left for amps and pre amp. mixers etc...

I'd go for 12 Polk RTi6 or Klipsch RB 51 and 2 subs on each floors but I'm not sure how well they would hold up playing 12 hours a day in a high humidity and hot climate.

For around $200-300/pair, what would you recommend? I'm also open for use speakers to save a few pennies.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
I'm researching some options for a business that's 2 stories, about 30ftx30ft each floors and both floors is just a wide open spaces with no walls.

It will have music playing at med-high volume for 12+ hours a day.

We're thinking 6 wall mount speakers on each floors and a sub or two to balance it out.

I'm looking for some pointers on brands/models to look at. I'm an home audio guy but never set up one for a business before.

I had some Polk RTi6 as my fronts in my HT which I think sounded great, but that's in a 10 by 10 room.

I had some Klipsch 1.1 for my stereo speakers which I really like as well, but I had to combine system due to lack of space so I got some RTi10 to replace my RTi6 instead.

I'm trying to spend around $2k just for the speakers this way I can still have a little left for amps and pre amp. mixers etc...

I'd go for 12 Polk RTi6 or Klipsch RB 51 and 2 subs on each floors but I'm not sure how well they would hold up playing 12 hours a day in a high humidity and hot climate.

For around $200-300/pair, what would you recommend? I'm also open for use speakers to save a few pennies.
Frankly, the best option will be several pairs of Behringer B2030P. Use active crossover such as Behringer CX2310 and high pass the B2020Ps at 80Hz. Low pass to the subs at 80Hz, of course. Use about 4 subs distributed evenly around the room. The B2030P is especially suited to this application. It has extremely robust drivers and xover (far exceeding anything else I know of) physically, and it has extremely wide dispersion exceeding anything else, which is very desirable here so that the tonal balance is identical around the entire area. Here is the set of off axis measurements: http://www.linaeum.com/productinfo/other/behringer_2030P/fr_waterfall_detail_offaxis_1M.gif

Note the 3rd graph down. Even at +/- 60 degrees, it has near identical response up to 15Khz.

I recommend highly that instead of buying a retail subwoofers, that you have a car audio shop fabricate custom boxes for you cheaply, using a good quality raw drivers powered by inexpensive pro amps. I can recommend box parameters and drivers suited to the application. You will get far less performance if you buy retail/commercial pre-built subwoofers.

-Chris
 
DD66000

DD66000

Senior Audioholic
Forget the rest, and get some JBL pro speakers, many to choose from.
 
MidnightSensi

MidnightSensi

Audioholic Samurai
I'd look at Danley Sound Labs.

You want a wide coverage speaker like some SH-95s.

Four SH-95s with two TH-Mini's would probably work well, without having seen the room.

Frankly, the best option will be several pairs of Behringer B2030P. Use active crossover such as Behringer CX2310 and high pass the B2020Ps at 80Hz. Low pass to the subs at 80Hz, of course. Use about 4 subs distributed evenly around the room. The B2030P is especially suited to this application. It has extremely robust drivers and xover (far exceeding anything else I know of) physically, and it has extremely wide dispersion exceeding anything else, which is very desirable here so that the tonal balance is identical around the entire area. Here is the set of off axis measurements: http://www.linaeum.com/productinfo/other/behringer_2030P/fr_waterfall_detail_offaxis_1M.gif

Note the 3rd graph down. Even at +/- 60 degrees, it has near identical response up to 15Khz.

I recommend highly that instead of buying a retail subwoofers, that you have a car audio shop fabricate custom boxes for you cheaply, using a good quality raw drivers powered by inexpensive pro amps. I can recommend box parameters and drivers suited to the application. You will get far less performance if you buy retail/commercial pre-built subwoofers.

-Chris
:confused:
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
I'd look at Danley Sound Labs.

You want a wide coverage speaker like some SH-95s.

Four SH-95s with two TH-Mini's would probably work well, without having seen the room.



:confused:
It simply is not going to have the high fidelity, nor the dispersion of the B2030P. The B2030P produces plenty of SPL, using six of them, in the small space he needs to fill. If this were an application that needed the very high sensitivity of the Danley SH-95, then sure, it would be worth using. But it's simply not needed - and using this traditional PA design Danley is going to necessarily result in reduction in fidelity compared to the B2030P's operational characteristics.

-Chris
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Forget the rest, and get some JBL pro speakers, many to choose from.
Yeah.. forget those B2030Ps... with their extraordinary dispersion through the entire audible band and their excellent time decay response and relatively low resonance cabinets (compared to most things).

-Chris
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
I have a friend that is selling the JBL Control 29 for $250.-- a pair with wallmounts. He has 16, they are in excellent condition, color is white. They run about $369.-- each. If interested PM me.

http://www.avnow.com/JBL_Control_29_p/jblc29av.htm
The Control 29 is a rather nice device for what it is. But it still can not match the fidelity of the B2030P, nor it's wide dispersion. But the Control 29 will get considerably louder - which is not needed in this application since he wants to use 6 speakers per room to distribute sound very evenly.

But to be fair, the OP did not say fidelity was the main factor. So the Control 29 may be what he wants.

-Chris
 
walter duque

walter duque

Audioholic Samurai
The Control 29 is a rather nice device for what it is. But it still can not match the fidelity of the B2030P, nor it's wide dispersion. But the Control 29 will get considerably louder - which is not needed in this application since he wants to use 6 speakers per room to distribute sound very evenly.

But to be fair, the OP did not say fidelity was the main factor. So the Control 29 may be what he wants.

-Chris
The only reason I've mentioned them is because of the price and they are like new. For $250.-- the pair sounds reasonable to me. I don't know what they sound like.
 
D

dannieboiz

Audiophyte
This is going into a coffee shop in Asia (if that matters). The climate is hot and humid for the most part so the Control 29 might be a very good choice because they're indoor/outdoors speakers.

The size of the JBL seems reasonable as well, since these would have to be packed and shipped or boxed up and checked into the flight.

I would also like some recommendation on an amps and pre-amps. Basically decent rig to power any of the speakers you guys are recommending. Possibly three 4 channel amps.

The plan is to have a computer as the source for music and probably a DVD player hooked up to it.

Trying to keep total cost under $4k less a computer and dvd since he have those already. (tell me if this is doable)

He doesn't need any crazy high end stuff. Just something that would put out good sound for the money. Heck he told me he was gonna go all bose bookshelfs until I talk him out of it.

BTW: Do these subs have enough lows in them to avoid adding subwoofers? Doesn't need to hit 30hz or anything, as long as it's balance.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
This is going into a coffee shop in Asia (if that matters). The climate is hot and humid for the most part so the Control 29 might be a very good choice because they're indoor/outdoors speakers.

The size of the JBL seems reasonable as well, since these would have to be packed and shipped or boxed up and checked into the flight.

I would also like some recommendation on an amps and pre-amps. Basically decent rig to power any of the speakers you guys are recommending. Possibly three 4 channel amps.

The plan is to have a computer as the source for music and probably a DVD player hooked up to it.

Trying to keep total cost under $4k less a computer and dvd since he have those already. (tell me if this is doable)

He doesn't need any crazy high end stuff. Just something that would put out good sound for the money. Heck he told me he was gonna go all bose bookshelfs until I talk him out of it.

BTW: Do these subs have enough lows in them to avoid adding subwoofers? Doesn't need to hit 30hz or anything, as long as it's balance.
The B2030P does not have any materials that would be subject to easy damage from a hot or humid climate.

The JBL does not need subwoofers, as it responds down to about 40Hz flat, according to factory specification. The 2030P does need subs. The 2030P will give much more natural/realistic sound quality and even tonal fill of a given area - if that matters. And it's not expensive ($150 USD/pair). The price is deceptive. But I have personally measured/analyzed this product and compared it to many other units, so I speak objectively in terms of it's acoustic performance.

I am not sure of the electrical system that is going to be used. But assuming it is available for the Asian country's power grid, the Yamaha P**00S amplifiers are a superb unit for installed high quality audio systems. They are avaiable in a large array of power output ranges. P2500s/P3500S/P5000S/P7000S. Starting at 250 x 2/310 x 2(8/4 Ohms) to 700x2/950x2(8/4 Ohms). Another great option for value and reliablity is QSC RMX range of amplifiers. However, the RMX has a loud fan. If they are mounted in a closet or in a room away from the main room, the fan noise won't be an issue. The Yamahas don't have a noisy fan issue at all to deal with. If using the B2030P, you will also need an active crossover to split to the mains/subs properly. The Behringer CX2310 is a great unit with high build quality and low price. Use an inexpensive small Yamaha mixer(reasonable cost, high reliability) to switch/mix between your sources. The mixer will feed the CX2310, the CX2310 will feed the amplifier inputs. The sources (DVD, Computer, etc.) will feed to the mixer. I would tend to recommend the RMX amplifiers because you only need two for each room. They are 2 ohm stereo stable, so you can hook 3 pairs of the Behringer in parallel to one RMX amplifier for each room. Then use one more RMX for the subs, for each room, assuming you are using custom built passive subs as I recommended earlier for ideal SQ for the budget.

If using the JBL Control 29, you can use standard audio distribution amplifier (the 29 has standard taps for this purpose) and you won't need a crossover or subs.

If natural/realistic sound is the priority, the B2030P set up is ideal - but this leads to more complex set up. If simplicity is the priority at the expense of sound quality, then the JBL is the best option.

-Chris
 
D

dannieboiz

Audiophyte
are you telling me these things are 4 ohms stable? I never knew that they are, this is very good to know. we can reduce the amount of amplifier to 3x 2 channels amps.

They use 220v over there in asia, which may raise a problem. If they don't support 220, we'd end up having to buy a step up transformer which would kind of suck too.

Thanks for all the information so far everyone. I've gathered more than expected in the last 24hrs than my researches for the past few days.
 
D

dannieboiz

Audiophyte
Walter,
Can you please shoot me an email, I don't have enough post to send you PM.
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Walter,
Can you please shoot me an email, I don't have enough post to send you PM.
Hi, Dannie. One more post and you can PM. I'd suggest that maybe you remove your e-mail address from that post, to prevent spam or whatever - just a suggestion.
 
D

dannieboiz

Audiophyte
LOL good idea, I didn't realized that I've already made the mark. Thanks!
 
D

dannieboiz

Audiophyte
question about the QSC RMX, looks like the RMX850 would do the trick. But they don't have composite input, they only have barrier strip (i guess this is high level input) XLR and 1/4 phono. I think he has a Denon receiver that he can use as pre amp. I'll have to find which model it is.

How would connecting everything together?

For 12 8ohms speakers, a single amp can push 4 speakers, so I guess I need 3 RMX850? Would I use Y Adapters to split the signals?
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
question about the QSC RMX, looks like the RMX850 would do the trick. But they don't have composite input, they only have barrier strip (i guess this is high level input) XLR and 1/4 phono. I think he has a Denon receiver that he can use as pre amp. I'll have to find which model it is.

How would connecting everything together?

For 12 8ohms speakers, a single amp can push 4 speakers, so I guess I need 3 RMX850? Would I use Y Adapters to split the signals?
RMX is 2 Ohms stable in stereo mode. You can connect up to 4 pairs(8 speakers) of 8 Ohm speakers in parallel off of one RMX. They have 220V versions of RMX amplifers available according to the manufacturer's product page.

If you are using a small mixer as the initial switching/driving device, then you can feed it easily with any unbalanced (RCA) or balanced source. But if you want to use the Denon receiver as a pre-amp to drive the QSC or other pro amps, then you should use a device like the Samson S-Convert or Art Clean Box to convert the Denon's low voltage RCA unbalanced pre-out to the higher voltage balanced pro-audio voltage. These boxes are about $50-$70.

If you are using the B2030P speakers, which require subs and an active crossover, then the CX2310(you can get a 220V version) crossover does not need a voltage gain converter. You can use a simple adapter to feed RCA out from Denon receiver to the CX2310 XLR input. It's internal pre-amp on the CX2310 will allow clean gain to be added internally of itself and it then outputs the necessary XLR balanced lines to feed the pro amps.

-Chris

.
 
CraigV

CraigV

Audioholic General
I’m going to suggest a different direction here. Instead of speakers that will direct the sound at the patrons, how about some of the Mirage Omni speakers? These will fill the room with nice, spacious ambient music, and not be so “in your face”.
 
MidnightSensi

MidnightSensi

Audioholic Samurai
I’m going to suggest a different direction here. Instead of speakers that will direct the sound at the patrons, how about some of the Mirage Omni speakers? These will fill the room with nice, spacious ambient music, and not be so “in your face”.
That's why I was saying the SH95s. High sensitivity, and a 95° x 55° dispersion.

SH-Mini would be good too, depending on the floors (100 x 100 dispersion is great, but, a lot of asian designs use a lot of hard surfaces that might make the coverage a little too wide.

JBL Controls are great speakers too. I would have recommended those had their not been the "mid to high output" statement.
 
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