What features would you give up for a more audio centric A/V receiver?

[AcuDefTechGuy]

What you guys think about the two new Rotel receivers?

Check it out to see what they are omitting and still give you that is totally useless (bunch of composite and S-video inputs).
And they claim to be an audiophile receiver, without a Phono input, no headphone jack, no SACD though HDMI!...
No Ethernet, no Internet, no XM radio, no Sirius radio, no HD radio, no automatic room calibration, no USB ports... No THX of course, forget Audyssey, prehistoric video processor (Faroudja) that degrades picture if you use it; it seems to me that it is obsolete even before they release it!
Should they have waited for Dolby Pro Logic IIz? Mmmm...Just kidding.

But they have a bunch of composite video outputs along with their S-Video counterparts, and lots of 12v triggers...HDCD of course, Zone 2 & 3 of course, preouts for all channels of course, 7.1-multichannel analog input (bass management probably absent), 4 HDMI inputs and one out.
Oh ya, all gold plated connectors, and 5 channels of amplification (75 watts x 5 for the RSX-1550). The RSX-1560 is 100 watts x 7 channels.

The RSX-1550 and the RSX-1560.

You can read a review of the Rotel RSX-1550 here:
http://www.hometheatermag.com/receivers/rotel_rsx-1550_av_receiver/

I love to know your impressions.

Bob

The measured specs stinks.

Onkyo/Integra have much better specs.

 

[Lordoftherings]

Wow! What's happening with people here, nobody is talking anymore!

The measured specs stinks.

Onkyo/Integra have much better specs.

What took you so long to express an opinion? It took you over a month (May 05)!
And they called this a sticky thread!!!

But, you have to admit that they look very nice though.

For me, they are overpriced, not competitive and simply outdated, even before they get released.

That's too bad, because Rotel is a nice company with great products.
But in the world we live, they simply cannot keep up with the newer receivers with all the features. If they want to keep their good sound, perhaps they need to stick with 2-channel stereo integrated amps and multichannel power amps.

An A/V receiver nowadays is: good sound, good Dacs, good DSP, good Automatic Room Correction EQ, good HDMI interface, good video processor, good analog stage, good digital section, good amount of DSP power, good amp section, good pre-amp section, good tuner, low distortion, low noise, high crosstalk, high S/N ratio, good current delivery, enough HDMI inputs and outputs, good set of features, less useless features, good lab tests, good frequency extension, clean OSD, good ergonomics, easy operation, good manual, good remote, good price and good overall performance, build quality and design.
Am I missing something?
Or does these two new receivers from Rotel are missing something?

Anyway, nice to hear from you, AcuDefTechGuy.
And next time, don't be shy to elaborate further on your impressions.

* We need to resurrect the dead people here at Audioholics.

Bob

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

What took you so long to express an opinion? It took you over a month (May 05)!
And they called this a sticky thread!!!

But, you have to admit that they look very nice though.

For me, they are overpriced, not competitive and simply outdated, even before they get released.

That's too bad, because Rotel is a nice company with great products.
But in the world we live, they simply cannot keep up with the newer receivers with all the features. If they want to keep their good sound, perhaps they need to stick with 2-channel stereo integrated amps and multichannel power amps.

An A/V receiver nowadays is: good sound, good Dacs, good DSP, good Automatic Room Correction EQ, good HDMI interface, good video processor, good analog stage, good digital section, good amount of DSP power, good amp section, good pre-amp section, good tuner, low distortion, low noise, high crosstalk, high S/N ratio, good current delivery, enough HDMI inputs and outputs, good set of features, less useless features, good lab tests, good frequency extension, clean OSD, good ergonomics, easy operation, good manual, good remote, good price and good overall performance, build quality and design.
Am I missing something?
Or does these two new receivers from Rotel are missing something?

Anyway, nice to hear from you, AcuDefTechGuy.
And next time, don't be shy to elaborate further on your impressions.

* We need to resurrect the dead people here at Audioholics.

Bob

I've been trying hard to get a rise out of someone today, but it's not working.

I think everyone is either too busy or too depressed.

 

[Lordoftherings]

Just don't quit yet. I'm sure it will come, and the dead will rise again, just like in a horror movie.

 

[no. 5]

Guys;

Based on my article:

Trading Amplifier Quality for Features - A New Trend in A/V Receivers?

I propose that some of our favorite brands come out with a line of Audio centric A/V receivers available only through Specialty Outlets.

I suggest price points from $600 - $1500 that will support all of the latest audio codecs but only offer Video pass thru for component and HDMI.

If you think this is a good idea, you need to be vocal here as I will send this out to the major manufacturers after it has enough responses.

Please share your thoughts by replying and also participating in our poll. Please also invite other forums to come here and participate.

Thanks.

I think it's a good idea, but what I'd really like to see in an audio centric receiver is far greater control over the crossover and room correction EQ.

Although, what would be really cool would be to have a DSP set for each amplifier channel, something that could allow a person to use a seven channel receiver to actively tri-amp a set of stereo speaker. Although the 'esoteric' crowd would probably eschew the idea, it would make a AVR waaaaay more flexible.

 

[Lordoftherings]

You should aim for Anthem.

I think it's a good idea, but what I'd really like to see in an audio centric receiver is far greater control over the crossover and room correction EQ.

Although, what would be really cool would be to have a DSP set for each amplifier channel, something that could allow a person to use a seven channel receiver to actively tri-amp a set of stereo speaker. Although the 'esoteric' crowd would probably eschew the idea, it would make a AVR waaaaay more flexible.

Seems that you are the perfect customer for an Anthem Statement D2v/ARC1.
Did you read on this magnificent piece of state-of-the-art audio/video processor?

 

[no. 5]

Seems that you are the perfect customer for an Anthem Statement D2v/ARC1.
Did you read on this magnificent piece of state-of-the-art audio/video processor?

Nope, I haven't read anything on it... yet.

 

[agarwalro]

Although, what would be really cool would be to have a DSP set for each amplifier channel, something that could allow a person to use a seven channel receiver to actively tri-amp a set of stereo speaker.

You have been eyeing the new Wharfedale's CaptainKirk just got, haven't you

 

[no. 5]

You have been eyeing the new Wharfedale's CaptainKirk just got, haven't you

(a sheepish look appears on no. 5's face)

Maybe...

 

[Lordoftherings]

State-of-the-art Anthem D2av/ARC1 Audio Surround & Video Processor.

Nope, I haven't read anything on it... yet.

Well, do so, because it has exactly the features you are asking for.
Check Anthem own web site, and also visit AVS Forum at the Official Anthem pre/pro various models thread. You'll be amazed at all the Anthem Statement D2av/ARC1 Surround Processor ca do. By the way, that thread at AVS is the biggest thread of them all! Learn about a state-of-the-art pre/pro that the market has to offer right now. You'll be blown away, I can promess you that.
The price might be a little steep for you to afford, but it is still an excellent value nonetheless. You want various x-overs (with different slopes) for all the separate channels, you got it. And ARC (Anthem Room Correction) is an amazing system that allows you to adjust some parameters and tweak it to perfection.
Also, the video processor is the very best, the custom Gennum-based VXP.

But don't just take my word for it, go read about it and learn more.
You'll be glad you did.

Regards,

Bob

 

[manofsteel2397]

i would get rid of the dsp but i have used some of the ones on my sony strDAES receiver it has 3 exclusily made to sound like sony's soundstage when they record it but havnt used them that often dont need the hall or any of that jazz just sounds to artificial. have no need for s-video that went out with vcrs composite still have use for especialy if you buy a video game or camcorder or something like that and dont have any other way of hooking it up at least till you order new cables......i have no need for zone 2 or 3 as live in a townhouse and have a seperate stereo in the basement for future use when i buy a house again.

 

[highfigh]

What features would you give up for better amplifier quality in a A/V receiver?

X- Legacy connections (ie. S-video, composite video)
X- DSP Modes (not including PLIIx / DTS Neo)
X- HDMI Video processing & Upscaling
Network streaming / XM Radio / Net Radio / etc
X- THX Certification
X- Multi Zone features beyond Zone 2

>I nixed the ones with the X in front. Video connections and switching can be done in a 1RU piece, better than what usually comes in a receiver. Up/down conversion can be done there and it would reduce the clutter on the back panel of a receiver.

>DSP modes don't sound real. They remind me of Quadrophonic systems. It wasn't recorded that way and I don't want to hear it that way. I want the audio to sound real, although there's no such thing when each instrument and part is on its own track and may have been recorded at various times. The mix determines how the instruments are placed in the sound stage and their relative levels, which is anything but "real".

What I'm saying is that I want the instruments to sound real as much as possible, unless they're specifically trying to use the unreal sound as an effect.

>THX certification is nice but I would rather use an industry standard instead of one that belongs to a company.

>Multi-zone is great but for the best reliability in control and since we all know they don't use the best innards for Zone 2 and 3, I actually prefer using a good 2 channel receiver with the sources feeding audio to it using the analog outputs (when the source device has them). That way, when I want to control it, there's no interaction or command code issues because it's a different device from the main receiver or pre-pro and if an RF-enabled controller is used, each piece receives their own commands from one port on the RF extender (Harmony) or module (URC/RTI). With RS-232, it's not an issue, either.

Zone 2 on some receivers can't be controlled as easily as others, so the separate receiver can be a way to get around that.

I'm an audio guy. If I want great video, I would use a Geffen, DVDO or some other switcher/processor. Separates have always been the standard for audio equipment when the best sound is wanted and this method allows the most flexibility. The one thing that conflicts with this is the fact that equipment manufacturers aren't here to make friends, they're here to make money. Offering separates would ensure that much of their product line would go unsold.

 

[JerryLove]

For Audio-centric? There's only two real options: either drop all the video entirely or drop all the video processing (making the unit a video switch). Either seems viable, and the former actually can be bought.

So why respond to this thread? Because I'd like to see more focused A/V units.

X- Legacy connections (ie. S-video, composite video): Dump them. Not on every unit everywhere, but on a condensed unit.

It's not mentioned, but lower the number of audio patch-cable inputs as well. Most of my audio gear is hooked up via digital connections. Make the ones you keep assignable.

X- Multi Zone features beyond Zone 2: Never had much use, and it clutters the back. If it's easy to have as a feature on the circuit board: reduce this feature to an HDMI (or network) out allowing to stream data to another receiver to actually power another room.

X- DSP Modes (not including PLIIx / DTS Neo): As this is an audio feature, I"m surprised it's on the list. I'm not sure that removing these really helps.

X- HDMI Video processing & Upscaling I don't see why you'd have video processing and then cripple it. Do it right or don't do it.

Network streaming / XM Radio / Net Radio / etc Another audio feature, so I'm surprised on the list. I suppose we could go back to external tuners. This would make a better mix-and-match option with things like HD-Radio. Network streaming too can be done externally.

Personally, I'd like to see both options come out. The "stripped down to allow flexability" unit which did not include any of these, but has more inputs to compensate, and the "good things in small packages" which includes these as having 2-3 more external units would be counter productive (Marants's new slim unit)

X- THX Certification Either the unit conforms to THX specs or it does not: I'm not sure how to answer this, but I see no down-side to THX.

 

[Toroid]

Cambridge Audio already makes great audio centric recievers with the 540R v.3 and the 640R
(although they don't have the HD audio codecs, the new 640R v.2 will have them and is coming out shortly.)

 

[Erika111]

Hi,
Network streaming / XM Radio / Net Radio / etc Another audio feature, so I'm surprised on the list. I suppose we could go back to external tuners. This would make a better mix-and-match option with things like HD-Radio. Network streaming too can be done externally.

 

[strube]

The biggest two for me would be to axe scaling/deinterlacing, and legacy video inputs.

I would be very happy with a unit that didn't have any S-Video, Composite, etc, and maybe one component for that Wii I bought my wife that she never plays.

It is nice to have HDMI inputs, and two outputs are nice and upconversion (not upscaling) to HDMI from that one Component connection would be fine too - but I don't want the signal messed with by a cheap VP subsystem. If I need VP I will let my display or my disc player or everything else I have with VP systems in it do that job, and if that isn't good enough I will probably buy a stand alone VP.

The only things I have plugged into my AVR are a power cord, several HDMI cables, and an ethernet cable. I have all of the VP shut off, I never use any DSP stuff, and really the only things I have used or do use is the network audio streaming and Audyssey (and I do like the GUI but I could live without it). Also at some point I will probably use the Preamp outputs.

I guess basically an AVR or Pre-Pro that was essentially audio-only with the added benefit of HDMI switching and an OSD would be absolutely wonderful. If this were available, I imagine you could get substantially nicer electronics for a much better price (or at least for the same price) if they could/would cut out all of this useless stuff.

WARNING: Rant ahead!

Unfortunately, I don't think we are who the Yamaha, D&M, Onkyo, etc. marketing departments are targeting with all of this extra crap. Instead, it is the unknowing shopper at BB who has to ask for advice from untrained employees what the best receiver and speakers are to go with their new TV. "This one is the best because you can connect a CRT TV from 1988 to it in addition to your brand new plasma. Also if you want to hook up your new blu-ray player to it but don't want to buy the $150 Monster HDMI cable, you can buy this really nice $65 Monster Component cable and this $45 Monster Digital Audio cable so you can still have surround sound!"

Okay, that was a fun. I'm done now.

 

[Chopper Greg]

I think strube hit the nail on the head.

I may be a Noob to HT, but I found the thread to be interesting - not so much as to what should or should not be included on a unit, but, more as to the approximate skill level of those that were answering the survey.


Those with an apparent amount of skill, appear to be in favor of dumping a fair amount of stuff, but of the folks on this forum, how many are going to be buying their equipment at Walmart?

That then begs the question what does someone with a lack of skill favor?


Please permit me put my view on things if I might.

My skill level?

Let me put it this way - I know enough to know that Best Buy is not the place to go for solid data, unless you happen to run across the occasionally rare employee that has spent several years doing professional sound work of one sort or another. I also know enough to know that there is allot that I don't know, but not quite enough to know which questions are most important.

S video - what can it do that something else can't? Near as I can tell, it is not doing anything that can not be done by some other method.

Composite video - It may not be the best, but there are times when it still comes in handy. The question then becomes " Is there any harm in keeping it? and " Would there be any real savings in getting rid of it? "

My answer to the first would be " Not that I can tell. " and the answer to the second would be " I really doubt it ", so I'm inclined to say keep the Composite video.

DPS modes - I have older media ( even some reel to reel ) so some of it would be of use, but the special effects such as 'stadium' or 'concert hall' is a waste of time. OTOH, what is the actual cost of them being there - if it comes down to just a matter of just a few cents, what is the harm in leaving it? If it's just a matter of reprogramming the same processor that handles the Pro Logic II and the DST Neo, then it's really just a software issue, and once done, for units that go to the likes of Best Buy and Walmart, it really is not much of an issue to include it in upscale units. That being said, I have been forced to use a room with so many variables ( walls that range from painted drywall to wood paneling to even brick of the fireplace - it's only close to being square in shape ) and as such I am actually looking forward to using the processing to help deal with deal with the oddness of this room.

HDMI video processing - if this is going to be a strictly audio unit, then there is probably no need to have it. OTOH, the ability to control everything from a single unit, and not worry about another remote to loose has a certain appeal, that I like.

Network streaming / XFM / Net Radio - I don't normally listen to radio anyway, unless I'm in the car and even then most of the time I'll pop something in of my choosing, not someone else's idea of good music - if I want it, I'll buy a computer and hook it up to the HT, the same goes for satellite radio, and standard AM / FM.

THX - I understand that there is good equipment that is not THX certified, but, without allot of experience to know what that equipment is ( or failing that, the ability to listen to hundreds or even thousands of equipment combinations ), and the lack of an industry standard set forth by an totally independent organization, I'll opt to trust the standard as set forth for THX certification, to show me what equipment meets a certain standard of having the potential to accurately reproduce a soundtrack as intended to be heard, by those that made it in the first place. As I see it, it's not a matter of saying " Hey I have an expensive piece of equipment ", it's a matter of knowing that I don't have the time ( or the ability ) to do it my self.

I'm not saying that my views are the same as those that are going to Best Buy, but up untill a few months ago, I was very much like them, and it's only in trying to get away from the " all in one " products than the chain stores push on most people that I ended up here. I may still go the Best Buy route, but that's only because I can't afford what I really want.

 

[latequa]

I accept it must be a bit rough on the brands at this moment. Trying to put in all the newest, shiniest along with keeping old connections.

 

[Lordoftherings]

Just wait another few more years, and you'll see another totally different type of Receivers.

* But then, are we gonna be still around?

 

[Yes]

I would give up ALL the features ! please just give me a 5ch amp with a volume control. Home theater is an experience but music is truly a hobby.

Now if someone prefers watching movies to listening to music I say more power to them. But what I've learned is no matter how great a manufacturer or anyone says a receiver is,the most important thing overall is the sound (although ease of use comes in a close second,and sometimes first). And unfortunately a 2ch audiophile amp that costs $400 ALMOST always sounds much better than an equally priced 5-7ch home theater receiver. there are exceptions and frankly I wish manufacturers would simply produce more 2ch RECEIVERS which is what I think most people actually want. I'm using an nad 2ch amp right now but I also like onkyo's 2ch receivers and especially yamaha's 2 ch receivers. SO-my point is if you like music more than movies i would suggest going with a 2ch receiver which WILL sound better than the same priced 5ch receiver.

And if the manufacturers will ever realize that most people prefer music to movies they would IMO make more money and have more customers.Also needed are products to bridge the gap between complicated,hard to operate components and simple to operate and better sounding components. manufacturers are starting to focus more on 2ch and also make things easier to use (i.e yamaha's scene buttons on their receivers) but it's still not enough for the average person and the audio lovers.

I'm sure the manufacturers would counter my arguments and say that people want home theater receivers but the problem with that argument is multifold. if you sell audio equipment like a commodity based on features as though they were pancakes or something (more is better) then you are really not selling the receiver you are selling the features. Call me crazy but I think in the long run it might be better to sell audio equipment based on SOUND-that might actually create loyal and more importantly happy customers (although I suppose some people don't know what they're missing). I still hold though that it is a poor long term strategy to focus people away from the SOUND of your audio components and toward features which change frequently and can easily be copied by your competitors. And no offense but even taking the "bargain shopping" public into account why are manufacturers charging $200-$300 or more for a 2ch receiver that is only 10-30% better or more powerful than their same name brand 5-7ch receivers that cost the same $200-$300 or more (I still think it can be worth an extra $100-$200 for a 10-30% difference in sound because it's the sound I'm after,but sometimes I want a "bargain" too). It seems to be the same strategy as the music industry-get as much money from the customer as possible. The only problem with that is that it's not the best business strategy-if you want more people buying your products and happy,loyal customers you have to 1) get them interested in your products by exposing them to it 2) give them what they want AND what they need-if a product fits into their life easier than another product they are more likely to BUY IT. 3) sell the person the product you are selling-if you are selling an audio receiver sell the sound,if you are selling a tv sell the picture etc. it seems electronic manufacturers have moved away from this and in their eyes they have benefitted by confusing the consumer and selling based on specs as opposed to performance but I think in the end this is currently and will backfire--because you can fool some of the people some of the time but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.

It's much easier to get someone to buy your car if you build a good one and give them a ride in it as opposed to building an average one and selling it to them based what kind of leather seats it has and how many dials it has. Just my opinion. But what do I know right-I'm just a music lover,audio lover,audioholic,audio fanatic,and lover of all things audio. Maybe in the future the manufacturers will go back to being audio lovers that produce a well made product and charge a reasonable price instead of first consulting their marketing departments and lawyers when designing a new piece of audio equipment.

I say all this not because I am mad or because I do not understand the market as it is today.I say this because I like sound and music and I find it sad to see all the wasted time and effort, and all the acheivements of the past that are lost or discarded in favor of other things.