Serenity vs the mighty SVS PB13 Ultra

[Cruise Missile]

I run a pair of PB13 Ultras tuned to 10 hz in a fairly large space. We finally got the movie Serenity and I put it on for a demo for some friends. I set the volume to -6db below reference and pressed play. Within the first 45 seconds I heard one of my mighty SVS subs..... wait for it.... bottoming out! I could not believe it.
I am running the subs with two ports plugged and the HPF set to 10 hz. The room compensation is set to off, and the subs are level matched to the rest of the system.

Now I know tuning the subs higher would probally eliminate this, however the subs blend in to my system best tuned this way. So now my questions is has anyone else had an issue with the opening LFE on Serenity? Could it just be recorded a little too hot? I have never heard this happen on any movie before and i've watched all of the recommended LFE movies.

Oh, and I matched the subs to each other also and only the one on the left did it.

It's kinda like getting your first ding on a new car.

 

[mike c]

put the room compensation to large or medium and try again.

 

[rmk]

We had dual PB13’s and my dual F113’s in my HT for a bass test a couple of years ago. We were able to drive both pairs to distress with most bass heavy movie scenes but especially the Pulse (btw, lousy movie) server room scene. We had the volume at -5 -10 (from RS SPL 75 db calibrated reference) and had to decrease to -12 or so to get the subs to stop clacking on that particular scene. My room had treatments including bass traps and the subs were front wall inside mains positioned (see pic) but distort they did.

All subs have limits and you found yours as the PB’s are currently configured. Room comp, tuning, EQ and or repositioning the subs are all options and I’m sure you can make it better but often the simple answer no new sub owner wants to hear is … turn it down.

 

[haraldo]

.............. but often the simple answer no new sub owner wants to hear is … turn it down.

Or buy two more PB13-Ultra's

 

[Ron Temple]

10hz tune, even in pairs, is seriously underported. I'd either go 15hz or sealed (and take the headroom hit). I've been running mine sealed for the last few months and just watching the MV. I'm usually safe at -10 to -8, but I did hit my first snag the other night. Valkyrie only has a couple of deep bass moments, but they are mixed hot, probably the full boat 30db peak and made the room, sub, tv stand and DLP emit noises I found very disturbing at -10. Turning it down was my only option...of course then the dialog was too low. Anyway, as Rob said, turn it down or change the tune .

 

[Warpdrv]

Serenity is a great movie for Bass, and all in all a fun movie to watch, I always enjoy that one...

Its been a while, but I'll have to fire that up again to see how my 18's do with it... RMK is correct, all subs have limits, and just when you think you have the perfect setup, you start pushing the envelope to see how much more you can do, and realize that you could have more...

This is one of the reasons you see different alignments come into play, I'll bet RMK will tell you switching from multiple sealed to a couple of tapped hornes he truly realized the difference in output was substantial, as well as the cost...

 

[rmk]

Serenity is a great movie for Bass, and all in all a fun movie to watch, I always enjoy that one...

Its been a while, but I'll have to fire that up again to see how my 18's do with it... RMK is correct, all subs have limits, and just when you think you have the perfect setup, you start pushing the envelope to see how much more you can do, and realize that you could have more...

This is one of the reasons you see different alignments come into play, I'll bet RMK will tell you switching from multiple sealed to a couple of tapped hornes he truly realized the difference in output was substantial, as well as the cost...

What are "tapped hornes" I knew a girl once who was know as a well tapped horny....

In any case, your comments re my impression of quad sealed vs the tapped hornes is spot on. The really cool thing is increased output with no loss of SQ.

 

[Warpdrv]

hehehhh typing and getting interrupted at work.... guess I forgot to double check...

 

[Cruise Missile]

Mike c, do you know the freq that the room comp starts to roll off at?

Haraldo, no doubt two more would be great.

Everyone else, thanks for the thoughts and insights. I am going to start this quest off by trying the room comp, per mike c. My theater currently is in a huge room and I know that once I can close it down into a dedicated space it'll help some also. I just don't want to damage anything. I have tried the sealed also before and am willing to try it again if the room comp doesn't help prevent the bottoming out. The 10hz tune just blends so perfectly at the crossover from my mains that I am hesitant to give it up. I'd rather give up a couple of db off the bottom octaves.

Thanks again.

Edit: also this is the Blu-ray version of Serenity. Great movie! RIP Firefly, you are dearly missed!

 

[haraldo]

Mike c, do you know the freq that the room comp starts to roll off at?

Haraldo, no doubt two more would be great.

Everyone else, thanks for the thoughts and insights. I am going to start this quest off by trying the room comp, per mike c. My theater currently is in a huge room and I know that once I can close it down into a dedicated space it'll help some also. I just don't want to damage anything. I have tried the sealed also before and am willing to try it again if the room comp doesn't help prevent the bottoming out. The 10hz tune just blends so perfectly at the crossover from my mains that I am hesitant to give it up. I'd rather give up a couple of db off the bottom octaves.

Thanks again.

Edit: also this is the Blu-ray version of Serenity. Great movie! RIP Firefly, you are dearly missed!

Don't give up on the 10Hz tuning easily !!!!! trust your ears

 

[haraldo]

Don't give up on the 10Hz tuning easily !!!!! trust your ears

People around here will probably yell and scream whenever I bring this up, there are speakers that's linear to above 200KHz, that include a total system with bandwidth to > 200KHz.... and subwoofers with in room extension to below 7 Hz

Although this represents things that we're not supposed to hear I can swear that those speakers with this extreme high frequency extensions and sub's with extension to 7Hz is better...... so what am i trying to say.....

Our ears can hear things that's impossible and probably things we don't even know what is, so.... just trust what you're hearing, so if the 10Hz tuning sounds better to Cruise Missile, it is better !

The master handbook of acoustics claim that if the eardrum moves a distance representing half a diameter of a hydrogen atom we may hear it.... so what we have in our ears is the best precision instrument ever... we should trust these more than #¤%%¤# instrumentation

The manager of the most respected high-end shop in this country tunes his rig not by using instrumentation, but... well he use it until a point but from there on he only uses his ears because the measurement instruments are "lying" and he gets better results by using his ears..... we should trust our ears more....

 

[Cruise Missile]

It's the upper part of the subs performance that I think is better with the 10hz tune. The lower part is fun, however the upper part is where things like walking bass lines really need the transition to be as smooth as possible. With the 10hz tune I can't hear the crossover point. With all ports open and the HPF set to 20hz there is an audible jump in spl just below the x-over (80hz per THX). The wife actually prefers the extra presence with the 20hz tune, however she mostly listens to pop so the x-over point rarely shows itself.

I did engage the room comp to large instead of off. We'll see if this helps when I try it again tonight.

 

[haraldo]

It's the upper part of the subs performance that I think is better with the 10hz tune. The lower part is fun, however the upper part is where things like walking bass lines really need the transition to be as smooth as possible. With the 10hz tune I can't hear the crossover point. With all ports open and the HPF set to 20hz there is an audible jump in spl just below the x-over (80hz per THX). The wife actually prefers the extra presence with the 20hz tune, however she mostly listens to pop so the x-over point rarely shows itself.

I did engage the room comp to large instead of off. We'll see if this helps when I try it again tonight.

I heard this guy seriously claiming he got better treble in his system by adding a subwoofer........ he he he, can you believe this.... and the thing that upper bass gets better by changing tuning frequency.... yes !!!

Changing the tuning frequency affect the phase relationships in the sub which also affect the upper bass, so everything's related, I reckon.....

I guess it's not a long time till WmAx and Mike_c come in and tell me how wrong I am, but this is my opinion..... :-D

Well I listened to a Burmester subwoofer that's supposed to be "flat" down to 7 Hz, and I can swear that this sub affect much more than the bass.....

 

[mike c]

Mike c, do you know the freq that the room comp starts to roll off at?

Haraldo, no doubt two more would be great.

Everyone else, thanks for the thoughts and insights. I am going to start this quest off by trying the room comp, per mike c. My theater currently is in a huge room and I know that once I can close it down into a dedicated space it'll help some also. I just don't want to damage anything. I have tried the sealed also before and am willing to try it again if the room comp doesn't help prevent the bottoming out. The 10hz tune just blends so perfectly at the crossover from my mains that I am hesitant to give it up. I'd rather give up a couple of db off the bottom octaves.

Thanks again.

Edit: also this is the Blu-ray version of Serenity. Great movie! RIP Firefly, you are dearly missed!

the room compensation starts to affect the FR from 30hz down. large has a 1st order (slight effect) slope and medium has a 2nd order slope.

i'm still trying to understand how the low end tuning affects the upper bass though ... are you choosing the mode by ear?

i honestly could not distinguish between 15hz and 10hz tuning (using 4 ultras) playing WOTW and BHD.

you might also want to try measuring your FR and see if you need some EQ'ing ... (there's a free software called Room EQ Wizard that can do this for you) who knows, if you EQ your bass ... you might not even need the 10hz tune.

 

[Cruise Missile]

I am on the as-eq1 pre-order list, but I'm in the second batch. I will try the 20hz tune again and see If I can smooth the transition some. Any excuse to play.... I mean tweak, is a good one!

Thanks for the replies.

 

[Cruise Missile]

I de-bunged the subs, reset them to 20hz, and level matched them again. I haven't tried Serenity yet, but the bass on Diana Krall live in Paris sounds great. I think sometimes when tweaking by ear and spl meter, it's your ears that end up tweaked. I must of had them set a bit hot the first time I tried the 20hz tune.

On a related note, I do plan on doing some room treatment this fall. So it can only improve from here!!! I'll post up what happens when trying Serenity again soon.

 

[haraldo]

ha ha, be careful now so you don't tune your ears......
It's the sub that needs tuning, not your ears


For equalization......
Options are also Behringer pro gear
- Behringer Ultracurve pro DEQ2496
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/DEQ2496.aspx
Digital parametric equalizer

- Behringer Ultradrive Pro DCX 2496
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/DCX2496.aspx
Digital parametric equalizer with crossovers

Many people around here swear to using the Behringer Ultradrive Pro DCX 2496, very high quality product !
The Behringer gear requires more ground work by you than an automatic room correction system, but I think the manual tuning will essentially provide better results in the end

 

[lsiberian]

ha ha, be careful now so you don't tune your ears......
It's the sub that needs tuning, not your ears


For equalization......
Options are also Behringer pro gear
- Behringer Ultracurve pro DEQ2496
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/DEQ2496.aspx
Digital parametric equalizer

- Behringer Ultradrive Pro DCX 2496
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/DCX2496.aspx
Digital parametric equalizer with crossovers

Many people around here swear to using the Behringer Ultradrive Pro DCX 2496, very high quality product !
The Behringer gear requires more ground work by you than an automatic room correction system, but I think the manual tuning will essentially provide better results in the end

For only dual subs you can get many of the same features using the BFD which is much cheaper. Just a possibility.

From what I saw in their FR charts the sub 20hz wasn't really all that impressive, but considering the size it takes to generate stuff that low I'm not surprised.

Either way Serenity is one of my favorite films I've seen recently. And I am far to enamored by the story line to even notice my sub.

 

[haraldo]

For only dual subs you can get many of the same features using the BFD which is much cheaper. Just a possibility.

From what I saw in their FR charts the sub 20hz wasn't really all that impressive, but considering the size it takes to generate stuff that low I'm not surprised.

Either way Serenity is one of my favorite films I've seen recently. And I am far to enamored by the story line to even notice my sub.

What's the BFD?
I think you should explain what you are talking about and not only throw out all these abbreviations.........
So that people may understand

At least I don't have a clue what you are talking about......

 

[Cruise Missile]

Behringer feedback destroyer.

I've considered it, but the auto route eliminates a large amount of potential doubt and subsequent "tweaking" on my part. That alone would be an improvement in my system. I hated my tv for a long time because I couldn't get the green perfect. Once I stopped trying I started liking it a lot more.