DIY Center Channel - < 200 for speaker components

Guiria

Guiria

Senior Audioholic
I am beginning to research options for a DIY center channel that will fit inside my entertainment center.



I'm considering the following and would appreciate your input and or criticism of the drivers chosen. Of course I'm interested in useful suggestions of drivers if the combined driver/crossover cost is in the price range of 185ish.

I've got enough mdf, rockwool, walnut veneer, etc to build a center using existing materials so I'm going to build the box and put the cash towards driver components.

1. A single Seas Loki coaxial driver in a ported DIY built box. This is by far the easiest design to execute with only 2 round cuts on the front baffle and an already assembled x-over. Cost is right at 200 with driver kit, port, and speaker terminals.

Concerns:

I don't know if a single driver will fill the room (2300 cubic feet) enough using only my receiver for amp power.

2. Using TLS_Guy's recommended Audax Aerogel driver on closeout at Parts Express along with the Seas Prestige 27TDC tweeter in an MTM arrangement. Cost is right at 200 with two drivers, tweeter, port, speaker terminals, and xover parts.

Concerns:

This design may be too large ported out the front and I'm not sure this driver will extend low enough in a sealed alignment. I would also consider doing a 2.5 way as a center using a midrange driver placed directly beneath the tweeter and the 6.5" drivers off to each side. This of course may throw me way over budget which I can't absorb for the time being, not to mention my box would fill the whole space below my TV to get everything to fit on the front baffle, which may or may not be a bad thing...

I will always use a sub with the center channel crossed over atleast at 80 Hz. I plan on taking the SPL over extension approach when choosing the design.

Originally I had hoped to round up enough doh to build a center channel speaker referenced in this thread about center channels, however, to properly execute that design I would need significantly more funds and I'm not one for long term saving for items like this :)
 
Last edited:
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I am beginning to research options for a DIY center channel that will fit inside my entertainment center.



I'm considering the following and would appreciate your input and or criticism of the drivers chosen. Of course I'm interested in useful suggestions of drivers if the combined driver/crossover cost is in the price range of 185ish.

I've got enough mdf, rockwool, walnut veneer, etc to build a center using existing materials so I'm going to build the box and put the cash towards driver components.

1. A single Seas Loki coaxial driver in a ported DIY built box. This is by far the easiest design to execute with only 2 round cuts on the front baffle and an already assembled x-over. Cost is right at 200 with driver kit, port, and speaker terminals.

Concerns:

I don't know if a single driver will fill the room (2300 cubic feet) enough using only my receiver for amp power.

2. Using TLS_Guy's recommended Audax Aerogel driver on closeout at Parts Express along with the Seas Prestige 27TDC tweeter in an MTM arrangement. Cost is right at 200 with two drivers, tweeter, port, speaker terminals, and xover parts.

Concerns:

This design may be too large ported out the front and I'm not sure this driver will extend low enough in a sealed alignment. I would also consider doing a 2.5 way as a center using a midrange driver placed directly beneath the tweeter and the 6.5" drivers off to each side. This of course may throw me way over budget which I can't absorb for the time being, not to mention my box would fill the whole space below my TV to get everything to fit on the front baffle, which may or may not be a bad thing...

I will always use a sub with the center channel crossed over atleast at 80 Hz. I plan on taking the SPL over extension approach when choosing the design.

Originally I had hoped to round up enough doh to build a center channel speaker referenced in this thread about center channels, however, to properly execute that design I would need significantly more funds and I'm not one for long term saving for items like this :)
I think the Loki will have enough power. It will produce a clean spl. at least comparable to your bookshelves, with equivalent power. As you are planning to put it in that cabinet, that will probably, go a long way to correcting the step response.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
I am beginning to research options for a DIY center channel that will fit inside my entertainment center.



I'm considering the following and would appreciate your input and or criticism of the drivers chosen. Of course I'm interested in useful suggestions of drivers if the combined driver/crossover cost is in the price range of 185ish.

I've got enough mdf, rockwool, walnut veneer, etc to build a center using existing materials so I'm going to build the box and put the cash towards driver components.

1. A single Seas Loki coaxial driver in a ported DIY built box. This is by far the easiest design to execute with only 2 round cuts on the front baffle and an already assembled x-over. Cost is right at 200 with driver kit, port, and speaker terminals.

Concerns:

I don't know if a single driver will fill the room (2300 cubic feet) enough using only my receiver for amp power.

2. Using TLS_Guy's recommended Audax Aerogel driver on closeout at Parts Express along with the Seas Prestige 27TDC tweeter in an MTM arrangement. Cost is right at 200 with two drivers, tweeter, port, speaker terminals, and xover parts.

Concerns:

This design may be too large ported out the front and I'm not sure this driver will extend low enough in a sealed alignment. I would also consider doing a 2.5 way as a center using a midrange driver placed directly beneath the tweeter and the 6.5" drivers off to each side. This of course may throw me way over budget which I can't absorb for the time being, not to mention my box would fill the whole space below my TV to get everything to fit on the front baffle, which may or may not be a bad thing...

I will always use a sub with the center channel crossed over atleast at 80 Hz. I plan on taking the SPL over extension approach when choosing the design.

Originally I had hoped to round up enough doh to build a center channel speaker referenced in this thread about center channels, however, to properly execute that design I would need significantly more funds and I'm not one for long term saving for items like this :)
I've been learning a lot from Wmax and can tell you that from the graphs I've seen so far that a sealed design using a constraining layer, rockwooled, and braced at least every 3" has superior results to many other methods. If you need extension. I think bass can be done with the subwoofers pretty well. But to know if your driver is suitable you will want to model it in a sealed design.
 
Guiria

Guiria

Senior Audioholic
I've been learning a lot from Wmax and can tell you that from the graphs I've seen so far that a sealed design using a constraining layer, rockwooled, and braced at least every 3" has superior results to many other methods. If you need extension. I think bass can be done with the subwoofers pretty well. But to know if your driver is suitable you will want to model it in a sealed design.
I am familiar with Wmax's methods and they were a little much for me back when I did my first build. I would consider something like that if I ended up going sealed. I modeled the loki driver in a sealed cabinet using WinISD and came up with an f3 of 70 Hz at roughly .3 cubic feet which is low enough for me.

Now onto why or why not it should be used in a sealed box.

It has a low qts of .26 which would lead me to believe that the driver is designed for a ported enclosure. It also has an EBP of 84 which would also lead me to thinking it should be used in a ported enclosure.

What other metrics are out there that will tell you if the driver will perform better in a sealed vs. ported box? There are probably some non-metric factors such as build quality and heat dissipation, given the back wave has no where to go in a sealed box, likewise heat. If the only real difference will be extension then I would probably go sealed.
 
Guiria

Guiria

Senior Audioholic
I know this is beyond my stated 200 but what about the zaph audio ZD3C center channel build? It looks to be quiet a center. Has anyone around here ever heard the ZD3C? http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZDT3.5.html scroll down to "Center Channel Option"
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
I know this is beyond my stated 200 but what about the zaph audio ZD3C center channel build? It looks to be quiet a center. Has anyone around here ever heard the ZD3C? http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZDT3.5.html scroll down to "Center Channel Option"
I will give you this advice. You don't know until you try.

Just build something anything. Then you will know.

If you don't like it save up for something else.
 
Guiria

Guiria

Senior Audioholic
You will have to have enough space to place it vertically.
Isn't the whole point of 3 ways and closely placed tweeters and midranges to not have to vertically place center channels. If I placed it vertically then the tweeter would be on the side of the mid which seems like it would create worse lobing issues.

So I guess the question is how does placing a 3-way center channel vertically help performance?
 
sawzalot

sawzalot

Audioholic Samurai
Isn't the whole point of 3 ways and closely placed tweeters and midranges to not have to vertically place center channels. If I placed it vertically then the tweeter would be on the side of the mid which seems like it would create worse lobing issues.

So I guess the question is how does placing a 3-way center channel vertically help performance?
I looked over the center your speaking of and I dont think it should be placed vertically it is definitely a horizontal build.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Isn't the whole point of 3 ways and closely placed tweeters and midranges to not have to vertically place center channels. If I placed it vertically then the tweeter would be on the side of the mid which seems like it would create worse lobing issues.

So I guess the question is how does placing a 3-way center channel vertically help performance?
The problem is that the woofer mid crossover is 800 Hz, and the lobing is less than optimal. The 3500 Hz is correct, so you would have to pick which one you want incorrect. Good three way centers have the woofer mid crossover and octave below this design and then the ear is not upset by the lobing error. For an optimal center three way placed on its side, crossover optimal crossover points are 350 to 400 Hz and 4 KHz, lie B & W and some others.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
I've heard LR4 crossovers help with lobing a lot. the CX2310 uses LR4 crossovers. You never know until you try as they say.
 
Guiria

Guiria

Senior Audioholic
The problem is that the woofer mid crossover is 800 Hz, and the lobing is less than optimal. The 3500 Hz is correct, so you would have to pick which one you want incorrect. Good three way centers have the woofer mid crossover and octave below this design and then the ear is not upset by the lobing error. For an optimal center three way placed on its side, crossover optimal crossover points are 350 to 400 Hz and 4 KHz, lie B & W and some others.
I thought the 800 Hz crossover seeemed high for this type of build. TLS, you don't happen to have any 3-way center channel builds in your drmarksays blog do you?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I thought the 800 Hz crossover seeemed high for this type of build. TLS, you don't happen to have any 3-way center channel builds in your drmarksays blog do you?
No I don't. However it is the old dilemma of three way speakers. This is particularly acute for the center channel. The center channel speaker is crucial, and has demands made on it, that other speakers don't.

Problem list.

Needs to be relatively small.

Has to produce high spl. effortlessly.

Has to have excellent speech clarity, at the same time produce natural speech, especially avoiding sibilance.

Needs limited vertical dispersion for optimal localization of voices and avoidance of muddling ceiling and floor reflections.

Needs to cover listening area, but no more, to minimize interference with mains, especially comb filtering.

Because of location and all manner of different adjacent boundaries, TV screens etc, optimizing step response for all installations is impossible with a completely passive crossover solution.

Therefore adjustment of the step response correction is highly desirable.

This is a very tall order.

To meet these criteria with a three way with no coaxial driver, avoidance of a crossover point in the speech discrimination band is highly desirable.

Therefore crossovers in at 350/400 Hz and 3.5 Khz/4KHz targets are desirable.

The number of units for use in the above frequency range is small. For most applications two mid range drivers will be required to meet THX specs. This will end up making a larger and tall enclosure.

The number of units available is very small. There is a Vifa unit that would likely have just about a high frequency enough reach.

The only satisfactory dome units that I now of that would be in any way adequate, are the Dynaudio D 76 and the ATC 3" dome. dome units are desirable, as no sub enclosure is required, which keeps the size of the speaker down.

The D76 is unfortunately no longer available OEM to the home constructor. Units show up on eBay but command high prices. I use this unit in the three way speakers in the first level, of my home.



This is a two channel, plus two sub system. Voice clarity is excellent, and you don't miss the center channel. Crossover points 400 Hz and 4KHz.

Because of the frequency characteristics of the ATC unit, a powered speaker with active crossover is pretty much mandatory. They also cost around $420 a piece. However they have VERY low distortion, high spl, and superb off axis response.

It is a real pity the B & W mid range driver used in their 800 series is not available to the home constructor. I think manufacturers denying their drivers to the home constructor is a short sighted business model and wrong headed on their part.

The above problems were the reason for the decisions I made.

I used a coaxial driver in a TL and used active step compensation so it can be precisely tailored to its location.

For a center channel a TL has huge advantages. Properly done there is no hint of chestiness in the tenor range of male speech. The coaxial driver has optimal dispersion characteristics.

I have had a lot of people hear this system now. And there is always very favorable comments on how natural spoken and sung voices are. At the same time there is good voice clarity in the rough and tumble of movies.

I have found a driver that comes close enough for diffraction compensation for use in a TL, but not a ported enclosure. TLs are much more tolerant of misalignments than ported enclosures.

If you really want a center that is better than any thing you can go out and buy, by far, and want to use it horizontal, then I suggest you build my TL center, and use two of these either side of the coaxial unit.

I would recommend an active crossover and separate amp for the fill drivers. It is a very straightforward proposition and requires a first order low pass active filter at 250 Hz. This is a very simple circuit, with low part count, that can be built for less than the cost of a passive inductor and zobel.
The advantage of active step response correction, is the ability to tailor it to your circumstances. This is a huge advantage.

I' certain, that any one who builds this center will be delighted.

If you want me to work up a design round the Vifa driver I can, but I very much doubt it will be superior to the one I describe above.
 
Guiria

Guiria

Senior Audioholic
TLS all I have to say is you never cease to amaze me :)

I found a connection that was willing to hook me up on anything I bought from parts express so I started looking at builds that I could utilize the connection with and I ended up pulling the trigger on this build:

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=22393

The center channel uses all Dayton Audio Reference Series drivers. It is comprised of 2 8" drivers, 1 6" driver and a 1 1/8 tweeter.

The crossover points are 400 Hz and 2100 Hz. The crossover didn't seem to out of control but sheesh, 3 way crossovers really add up. I found it impossible to find an already designed 3-way within my budget that had crossover points out of the range of 400 Hz - 4 KHz. Compromise had to made somewhere.

Hopefully the center will curb the urge until funds permit to do something like the coaxial TL enclosure, I still think that would be the creme de la creme.

My only concern starting off with this build is that the speaker is 4 ohms. Hopefully my yammie can handle a single 4 ohm load ok:confused:

I'll post some pics down the road, if you've ever followed my build threads I am horrible about keeping them updated with pics on a regular basis :)

Like Isiberian said,
build something anything if you don't like it save up and build something else.
You can spend hours nit-picking between different designs. I finally just took a deep breath, put all the criticism aside and went for something, it felt good :)
 

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