question about video upconversion

A

audiolover

Audioholic Intern
On HD stations my cable co. broadcasts in 1080i. I see so many receivers advertising video upconversion. So in my case does this mean one of these receivers would upconvert 1080i to 1080p? Or does this simply mean standard def. tv would be upconverted to 1080i and nothing changes with HD? Please help me clear up this confusion. Thanks!
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Commonly, upconversion refers to converting one type of video input into a different video output (e.g. s-video to HDMI), while upscaling refers to increasing the video resolution (e.g. 480i to 1080i). I mention that because it might help clear up some confusion when you look at receiver specs.

Some receivers will upscale to 1080p, some won't. If your TV is a 1080p TV, then it will already upscale an incoming image from 1080i to 1080p. Therefore, you'd only potentially see a benefit if the upscaler in the receiver was better than the one in your TV.
 
A

audiolover

Audioholic Intern
My TV is 1080p. However, Comcast in my area apparently only broadcasts in 1080i because that is what is displaying both on the cable box display as well as the TV display. That's what I was wondering is if the receiver that does upscaling would change this to 1080p
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
My TV is 1080p. However, Comcast in my area apparently only broadcasts in 1080i because that is what is displaying both on the cable box display as well as the TV display. That's what I was wondering is if the receiver that does upscaling would change this to 1080p
The cable box, receiver, and TV all display the resolution of the input signal. The TV can only display images at one resolution so if the TV's resolution is 1080p, that is the resolution it will display at - regardless of the input format.
 
A

audiolover

Audioholic Intern
I'm a little confused by that statement. My TV is a 1080p model. I have an HDMI cable going from the TV to the cable box but I only get 1080i from cable. I do have a blu ray player and when I watch a movie on it the display does show 1080p. So apparently the cable co. only broadcasts in 1080i, not 1080p. So I'm assuming the receiver won't change this?
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Which receiver? Some receivers will deinterlace a 1080i signal to 1080p. Once again, though, your TV is already doing that. It has to do that in order to display the image. You will gain nothing if the deinterlacer in the receiver isn't any better than the one in your TV.
 
A

audiolover

Audioholic Intern
Have a HK254 but returning it due to multiple issues. So the ones I am considering are the Denon 1909 & Marantz 5003
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Both of those have settings for a 1080p output over HDMI, so it's likely that they will convert a 1080i HDMI input into a 1080p HDMI output. The only statements that I've found so far for upscaling refer to analog-to-HDMI conversion and scaling, though, so I can't say for sure.
 
A

audiolover

Audioholic Intern
Thanks for your help. I guess it's probably not that big of a deal as the 1080i picture looks great. But I have heard that 1080p makes a difference with reducing blurs during fast movement
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Thanks for your help. I guess it's probably not that big of a deal as the 1080i picture looks great. But I have heard that 1080p makes a difference with reducing blurs during fast movement
There is another matter that has not been covered, and that is the fact that upscaling does not magically create more detail than is being broadcast. A 1080p source, all else being equal, is better than a 1080i source, but upscaling (which your 1080p TV already does) is not going to magically give one more signal information than is already in the 1080i signal.

So, if you had a receiver that would convert between 1080i and 1080p, it would make your TV say "1080p" for the input, but the original signal would still only be 1080i and upscaled by the receiver. Whether that would be better than what you are already doing or not is entirely dependent upon the relative quality of the upscaler in the receiver and the TV. Many people waste money buying a DVD player that upscales, a receiver that upscales, and a TV that upscales. One of them does the work*, while the others do nothing, so one has wasted money on upscalers that are totally irrelevant. What is ideal is to have one great upscaler, and no others, as any others are a waste of your money.

In your particular situation, with a Blu-ray disc that is 1080p, if everything is adjusted properly and working properly, that should look better than any 1080i input. However, if you are far away from the screen, any difference may be too small to notice. In fact, if you are far enough away from the screen, you won't see a difference between 480i and 1080p. For more on that, see:

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hitech/1137


The difference between a 1080i and 1080p signal at, say, 60 Hz, is that the 1080i sends half a picture frame (every other line) 60 times a second, while the 1080p sends a full picture frame 60 times a second. This means that you get only 30 full frames per second with 1080i @ 60 Hz, but you get 60 full frames per second with 1080p @ 60 Hz. So there is going to be better motion with a 1080p signal (at the same frequency) than with a 1080i signal, because more information is sent per second. Indeed, if blurring motion is a concern, a 720p signal @ 60 Hz will be better than a 1080i signal @ 60 Hz, but it will have less overall picture detail (with 720 lines instead of 1080 lines). So, some TV stations broadcast in 720p because they are more concerned with avoiding blurred motion, while other stations broadcast in 1080i because they would rather have more picture detail. (You would probably notice 1080i and 720p if you used an antenna to watch TV; your cable company may convert everything to one format.) The more picture information that is broadcast, the more bandwidth it take up, so there is a limit to what is allowed to be broadcast. So this is why you don't see everyone broadcasting 1080p. And, of course, HDTV is several years old, so it is based upon technology that is several years old.



____________________
*There is a way to have more than one do the work, and that is by having each one do part of the upscaling, so that, for example, the DVD player may output 480p which might be upscaled by the receiver to 720p and then upscaled by the TV to 1080p. This, usually, is a very bad way to go, as each conversion only looks at what is there, not whatever was lost in an earlier conversion, so that it is a good idea to use one great upscaler to go from the original source format to the screen/TV format. On rare occasions, it is better to use more than one, as in a case where the DVD player has a better line doubler than the other upscaler, but usually one is better off using one upscaler to do all the work.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
There is another matter that has not been covered, and that is the fact that upscaling does not magically create more detail than is being broadcast. A 1080p source, all else being equal, is better than a 1080i source, but upscaling (which your 1080p TV already does) is not going to magically give one more signal information than is already in the 1080i signal.

So, if you had a receiver that would convert between 1080i and 1080p, it would make your TV say "1080p" for the input, but the original signal would still only be 1080i and upscaled by the receiver. Whether that would be better than what you are already doing or not is entirely dependent upon the relative quality of the upscaler in the receiver and the TV. Many people waste money buying a DVD player that upscales, a receiver that upscales, and a TV that upscales. One of them does the work*, while the others do nothing, so one has wasted money on upscalers that are totally irrelevant. What is ideal is to have one great upscaler, and no others, as any others are a waste of your money.

In your particular situation, with a Blu-ray disc that is 1080p, if everything is adjusted properly and working properly, that should look better than any 1080i input. However, if you are far away from the screen, any difference may be too small to notice. In fact, if you are far enough away from the screen, you won't see a difference between 480i and 1080p. For more on that, see:

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hitech/1137


The difference between a 1080i and 1080p signal at, say, 60 Hz, is that the 1080i sends half a picture frame (every other line) 60 times a second, while the 1080p sends a full picture frame 60 times a second. This means that you get only 30 full frames per second with 1080i @ 60 Hz, but you get 60 full frames per second with 1080p @ 60 Hz. So there is going to be better motion with a 1080p signal (at the same frequency) than with a 1080i signal, because more information is sent per second. Indeed, if blurring motion is a concern, a 720p signal @ 60 Hz will be better than a 1080i signal @ 60 Hz, but it will have less overall picture detail (with 720 lines instead of 1080 lines). So, some TV stations broadcast in 720p because they are more concerned with avoiding blurred motion, while other stations broadcast in 1080i because they would rather have more picture detail. (You would probably notice 1080i and 720p if you used an antenna to watch TV; your cable company may convert everything to one format.) The more picture information that is broadcast, the more bandwidth it take up, so there is a limit to what is allowed to be broadcast. So this is why you don't see everyone broadcasting 1080p. And, of course, HDTV is several years old, so it is based upon technology that is several years old.



____________________
*There is a way to have more than one do the work, and that is by having each one do part of the upscaling, so that, for example, the DVD player may output 480p which might be upscaled by the receiver to 720p and then upscaled by the TV to 1080p. This, usually, is a very bad way to go, as each conversion only looks at what is there, not whatever was lost in an earlier conversion, so that it is a good idea to use one great upscaler to go from the original source format to the screen/TV format. On rare occasions, it is better to use more than one, as in a case where the DVD player has a better line doubler than the other upscaler, but usually one is better off using one upscaler to do all the work.
Sports tend to look better than movies In my experience. Simply because of the lighting. Very bright images are easier for displays to make look good.

Though I can't wait until I have a 1080p projector to watch my blu-rays on.:D
 
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