Out-Of-Phase Speakers

mulester7

mulester7

Audioholic Samurai
Could you explain what 1-2-3 and 3-2-1 are? I must have missed something.
.....normal wiring vs. cross-wiring out-of-phase, Highfigh....ie, the path through the crossover and the speaker elements.....

.....Guys, with normal wiring, doesn't the full-range signal come to the crossover where it's split and sent to individual sections of the crossover to condition the signals and then sent on to each speaker element?....then doesn't the signal return to the crossover via negative leads where they're directly joined and sent to the negative input of the amp?....with cross-wiring, doesn't the full-range signal go directly to the speaker elements via negative input to the crossover, and then go back to the crossover to go through the active parts of the crossover rendering squat?....you're not thinking going through the crossover backwards....once the signals go through the speaker elements, what does it matter what's in the path after that?....do we have actual experience with passive crossovers, or are we going off what we've read or what makes sense?.....
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Samurai
.........please play "follow the signal" from the amp's positive output back to the amp's negative input traveling through the crossover leads backwards....any components of the crossover that affects the signal, are being gone through AFTER the signal goes through the speakers' speaker elements....no?.....
Yes, I hear what you're saying, but I'm not sure how this matters in an AC circuit. I don't really know much about this stuff, except that my intuitive and uneducated initial beliefs about how it works are often way off base!

I still suspect you're experiencing the interactions between out of phase rears more than anything, based on my own tinkering experience.

Maybe I have too much time on my hands, but my crappy HT setup was for some time strictly stereo based, and I played around with the old amps I just seem to never get rid of, using them in some sort of ghetto Hafler matrix. It used to sound ok for rudimentary HT, and quite pleasing for music. Varying the gain on the amp driving the rears in that setup would definitely alter aspects of the stereo image, and when used judiciously as ambience retrieval didn't smear or alter the left-to-right stereo image (except to pull it closer, giving convincing depth to the soundstage), and caused some parts of the mix to jump out in unexpected ways. It was pretty cool. I remember wiring the rears in all possible configurations, and out of phase w/ the fronts yielded the most pleasant results.

I could be completely wrong.
 
mulester7

mulester7

Audioholic Samurai
Yes, I hear what you're saying, but I'm not sure how this matters in an AC circuit.
.....Ski, what's happening is, the full-range signal is sent directly to each speaker element without the benefit of having come through the front door of the crossover.....
Maybe I have too much time on my hands, but my crappy HT setup was for some time strictly stereo based, and I played around with the old amps I just seem to never get rid of, using them in some sort of ghetto Hafler matrix. It used to sound ok for rudimentary HT, and quite pleasing for music. Varying the gain on the amp driving the rears in that setup would definitely alter aspects of the stereo image, and when used judiciously as ambiance retrieval didn't smear or alter the left-to-right stereo image (except to pull it closer, giving convincing depth to the soundstage), and caused some parts of the mix to jump out in unexpected ways. It was pretty cool. I remember wiring the rears in all possible configurations, and out of phase w/ the fronts yielded the most pleasant results.

I could be completely wrong.
.....you're not wrong at all, Ski, and I enjoyed this large paragraph a lot....good stuff....good man.....
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
.....normal wiring vs. cross-wiring out-of-phase, Highfigh....ie, the path through the crossover and the speaker elements.....

.....Guys, with normal wiring, doesn't the full-range signal come to the crossover where it's split and sent to individual sections of the crossover to condition the signals and then sent on to each speaker element?....then doesn't the signal return to the crossover via negative leads where they're directly joined and sent to the negative input of the amp?....with cross-wiring, doesn't the full-range signal go directly to the speaker elements via negative input to the crossover, and then go back to the crossover to go through the active parts of the crossover rendering squat?....you're not thinking going through the crossover backwards....once the signals go through the speaker elements, what does it matter what's in the path after that?....do we have actual experience with passive crossovers, or are we going off what we've read or what makes sense?.....
I've been in the audio business for over 30 years and never read or heard anyone refer to 1-2-3/3-2-1 when talking about wiring. Ever. It might help to minimize confusion to just use the standard terminology of 'normal' and 'reverse polarity'.

Did you look at the circuit diagrams in the links I provided? You need to look at a speaker as a series/parallel circuit unless each speaker is actively crossed over or each speaker is driven by its own amp and a first order filter is used. The series circuit (1st order filter ahead connected from the + terminal to the speaker + and the speaker - connected to the terminal -), has all of the signal going to the filter and then whatever is filtered out goes to the voice coil and on to the negative terminal, so it can complete the circuit. The voice coil won't reproduce all frequencies because the characteristics of the cap or coil limits what frequencies the circuit will pass. If a 2nd order filter is used, the second pole (cap or coil) will shunt the frequencies it passes to ground. This makes the filter act more aggressively and the slope of the filter in increased from 6db/octave (1st order) to 12dB/octave (2nd order). Add 6dB/octave for every additional order. Now, one side effect of these filters is that the signal is slightly delayed as it passes through and this is relatively constant. It's called phase shift and if you were to look at the waveforms of a speaker with no crossover and one with a 1st order filter, you would see that the filter causes the waveform to lag by 90° (what is a crest on the unfiltered speaker is at a null point on the filtered one, etc) and this increases by 90° with each order of filtering. That's why you can see that a mid-range is often wired "out of phase" with the woofer and tweeter in a speaker system with a 12dB/octave crossover for everything.

In addition, everything that's put before the speaker will affect the ability to reproduce transients well. That's important to note and it's also why a lot of speaker companies prefer to use simple crossovers. It can beat a speaker up pretty badly if it's not done right, though.

Read this link, too. It has a lot of good information.
http://sound.westhost.com/parallel-series.htm
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
you're not thinking going through the crossover backwards....once the signals go through the speaker elements, what does it matter what's in the path after that?....do we have actual experience with passive crossovers, or are we going off what we've read or what makes sense?.....
A capacitor's response to AC current dictates that as the frequency drops, the cap's impedance increases at a specific rate. A coil's response is for the impedance to rise as the frequency increases. Because of these characteristics, if the component is in series with the speaker, it doesn't really matter which terminal it's connected to- the positive is used for convention and to minimize confusion. In a series circuit, there's nowhere else for the signal to go, so it must pass through the filter and the voice coil. If you put another filter after the original and the voice coil, it completely changes the filter's effect because the added component will filter out what it can. If you add a cap, the values add and if you add a coil, you have made a bandpass filter. However, if the cap is filtering frequencies that are much higher than what the coil can pass, you won't hear what you want because the frequencies between them will have been removed. OTOH, this is exactly the kind of filter is used for a mid-range or mid-bass driver- it removes the bass frequencies that it won't reproduce well and could damage it, as well as the higher frequencies that it doesn't reproduce and will inevitably cause "beaming" or "lobing" issues. How steep the filter will be depends on the drivers, the designer's intent, budget and any other special considerations.

I don't know if "we" have experience with crossovers and while I don't have as much experience as some, I've been doing this kind of thing for over 30 years, much of that time doing car audio systems with all kinds of weird configurations which often required changing and designing crossovers, building all kinds of enclosures and then listening and using an RTA to verify the results. I designed and built the speakers I listen to in about '96 and they still make me very happy. However, in listening critically for so long, I can remain objective about how they sound because if I hear a problem, I make note of it and when I have the time/inclination, I fix it. They're mine and not something that I made for someone else, so it's not so much a matter of pride as an on-going experiment. If people hear them and rave, it's gravy on the icing and adds some validation that they actually sound good.

I don't know how much experimentation you have done with this stuff but for less than 50 bucks, you can buy some caps, coils, resistors, a woofer and a tweeter to try different configurations and listen for the results. This is best done with an amp that you don't really care about, in case the load goes too low or it can't handle what you throw at it. One thing I would also suggest is to connect a hand-held woofer to am amp with music playing, turn the volume to a moderate level and turn it so you're looking across the front edge of the speaker. It doesn't matter which side is front, but you want to notice the sensation of the positive pressure on one side and the negative on the other. Once you experience it, you may become sensitive to it and for that, I'll apologize in advance. The problem with being very sensitive to it is that you'll hear the same thing when you listen to speakers that have phase problems, either from the crossovers being badly designed, mis-wired or from reflected sound. From personal experience, if you decide to re-wire the crossovers in a pair of speakers that you use on a regular basis, do both at the same time- using one of each will not be pleasant because of the cancellations.
 
mulester7

mulester7

Audioholic Samurai
.....thanks, HighFigh, but honest, my head's wore-out on this one....this has been consuming me for a month before I brought it here....I'm ready to breathe deeply for awhile and just enjoy my system now that it's figured out....I don't think it's a matter of impedances anymore....I appreciate you Guys listening and commenting....that honestly helped me to relax and think....considering I'm about as sharp as a bowling ball, this hasn't been easy....I raise a grape soda from Wal-Mart to the screen, in honor of you who posted.....
 

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