The Obama Motors Corporation

[jcilforever]

I say the reason why GM and Chrysler are going out of business is because they did not make cars the people wanted to buy, let them go out of business, a company that is better run will take their place, oops already did last year "Toyota". Once the US gets a good kick in the pants then they will get serious and start making higher quality cars.

The thing that saved Ford so far was their trucks, but given the gas prices we don't know for how long. BTW Ford's hybrid technology was sold to them by Toyota it was their first try at it.

Toyota plants only have five car bays to put cars in off the line if their is something wrong, then they shut down the line. US manufacturers have whole parking lots of cars that need rework.

Everyone has been trying to make themselves into Toyota for the last five years, including BMW, the only problem is that they are 14 years too late.

By the way more foreign cars are manufactured in the US than US owned company's cars.

 

[krzywica]

Everyone has been trying to make themselves into Toyota for the last five years, including BMW, the only problem is that they are 14 years too late.

Hahaha....

Sorry dude....no offense but that was funny.

Maybe you should wikipedia Mercedes Benz, they have been the author of every major breakthrough in the automotive industry basically since its inception.

Don't get me wrong, Toyata, and Honda make amazing vehicles, but certainly not cutting edge. Other than maybe the Nissan GTR.

 

[highfigh]

The responses in this thread are absurd. The government is not taking over GM (not yet anyways). GM is requesting more money from the federal government. The White House said that if they want the money they are going to need to make major changes, starting with a new CEO. Wagoner could have stayed on if he wanted and face the imminent bankruptcy that he drove the company to, but he chose that the best option for the company was for him to step down and accept federal aid.

To imply that Obama is going to be running GM is ludicrous.

Not Obama himself, the government. If you don't think the gov't won't have their hand in GM and Chrysler's daily affairs, you're fooling yourself. Look at how well other government programs work. Name one that runs at or below budget and ahead of schedule.

 

[craigsub]

I say the reason why GM and Chrysler are going out of business is because they did not make cars the people wanted to buy, let them go out of business, a company that is better run will take their place, oops already did last year "Toyota". Once the US gets a good kick in the pants then they will get serious and start making higher quality cars.

The thing that saved Ford so far was their trucks, but given the gas prices we don't know for how long. BTW Ford's hybrid technology was sold to them by Toyota it was their first try at it.

Toyota plants only have five car bays to put cars in off the line if their is something wrong, then they shut down the line. US manufacturers have whole parking lots of cars that need rework.

Everyone has been trying to make themselves into Toyota for the last five years, including BMW, the only problem is that they are 14 years too late.

By the way more foreign cars are manufactured in the US than US owned company's cars.

Most of your post is opinion. Let's take a look at something objective.

In the 2009 JD Powers reliability survey, There were 17 vehicle lines which were listed as above average. By country, they break down as:

Japanese: 6 Lines
American: 6 Lines
European: 4 Lines
Korean: 1 Line

And for below average, there were 20 Lines, and they break down as follows:

Japanese: 6 Lines
American: 7 Lines
European: 6 Lines
Korean: 1 Line

 

[Seth=L]

Every system of government is flawed, including that of the United States of America. The flaw in ours is revealed when those in power relinquish that power to their government due to a lack of motivation. A majority of people in this great country of ours are too lazy and/or don't care enough about their country.

Who in this country will defend his freedom?

Our freedom is being taken by force now because we gave too much of it up. We will lose all freedom before the end. A great war is likely to come.

 

[dronezero]

For the big three to ask the government for money and them considering it is ludicrous if you ask me. "Free enterprise" is going to cost our great grandkids. A major overhaul is needed and unfortunately, a bankruptsy or two may be what it takes.

And what do you think the cost would be for the bankruptcies given the current economic situation?

I don't suppose you bothered to read what I posted several hours ago that you have now passed off as absurd ?

Wagoner did the best job a person could, considering the circumstances. Taking over a company that has to support 540,000 retirees or survivors with 180,000 active employees when your competition does not have to do so is an impossible task,

The federal government is the biggest reason the big three have a problem in the first place.

GM makes a profit everywhere but North America, where they have to tolerate a forced on them union.

Wagoner was flawless? From the wsj:

After those two episodes, say former General Motors executives, any discussion of further culling GM's lineup of eight different brands or of demanding major improvements in factory productivity became strictly off-limits with Mr. Wagoner. There was a "can't do" mentality that accepted too many brands, too many dealers and too many workers as immutable facts of life that could only be changed slowly and gingerly, if ever. That might have worked had Americans continued buying big pickups and SUVs at a record-setting pace for another decade or two. But that prospect never was realistic, even before car sales collapsed nine months ago. Mr. Wagoner stuck with overly rosy forecasts until the very end.

Yeah, Wagoner was certainly blameless in GM losing 21% of its US market share under his watch.

GM had the choice to reject the conditions and try to go it alone. They decided their best shot at survival was to accept the federal money with the strings attached.

Not Obama himself, the government. If you don't think the gov't won't have their hand in GM and Chrysler's daily affairs, you're fooling yourself. Look at how well other government programs work. Name one that runs at or below budget and ahead of schedule.

They won't so long as the companies come up with a plan by themselves that is workable. Of course GM and Chrysler's problem is that the management is so incompetent that don't seem to be able to do that, which is what got them into the mess in the first place.

 

[Wafflesomd]

Barack Obama: Chains we can believe in.

 

[markw]

Hahaha....

Sorry dude....no offense but that was funny.

Maybe you should wikipedia Mercedes Benz, they have been the author of every major breakthrough in the automotive industry basically since its inception.

Don't get me wrong, Toyata, and Honda make amazing vehicles, but certainly not cutting edge. Other than maybe the Nissan GTR.

Maybe not cutting edge as far as techology goes but Toyota beats the pants off of their German counterparts in reiability. But, I will say that German cars lok grand sitting alongside the road witb their hoods up.

 

[craigsub]

And what do you think the cost would be for the bankruptcies given the current economic situation?

Wagoner was flawless? From the wsj:
Yeah, Wagoner was certainly blameless in GM losing 21% of its US market share under his watch.

GM had the choice to reject the conditions and try to go it alone. They decided their best shot at survival was to accept the federal money with the strings attached.
They won't so long as the companies come up with a plan by themselves that is workable. Of course GM and Chrysler's problem is that the management is so incompetent that don't seem to be able to do that, which is what got them into the mess in the first place.

Do you know anything of franchise laws ? Let me answer that for you: No, you don't. Let's say GM wants to get rid of Pontiac, Buick and GMC.

They could easily move those lines into Chevrolet and Cadillac. The problem is, GM now has to compensate each of the Pontiac, Buick and GMC dealers. We are talking billions of dollars.

When GM did close Oldsmobile, it did so by putting Buick or Saab into most Oldsmobile dealers, depending on market area.

Do you understand English ? (I ask this because you quoted me, then typed "Wagoner was flawless?". I never said he was flawless. I said he did the best job a person could, considering the cirmcumstances. How anyone with any amount of brains could change that into flawless is a mystery).

Finally, GM Europe and Asia make a profit. GM North America does not.

The only difference is GM has to pay off contracts that the UAW insisted on over the years at the point of shutting GM down.

You can blame this on management all you want, and you will be wrong.

 

[rnatalli]

The way I see it, there are three options:

1. Keep giving the auto industry bailouts with no conditions and trust they do the right thing. This is stupid.

2. Let the business fail and allow the free market to correct itself. Better, but we invite Japan, Korea, and China to take over our auto industry. Quite frankly, I'd rather the U.S. government be in control of the auto industry rather than a foreign government.

3. Find some sort of middle ground which is what this administration is attempting to do.

The question is which one sucks least because they all suck.

 

[craigsub]

The way I see it, there are three options:

1. Keep giving the auto industry bailouts with no conditions and trust they do the right thing. This is stupid.

2. Let the business fail and allow the free market to correct itself. Better, but we invite Japan, Korea, and China to take over our auto industry. Quite frankly, I'd rather the U.S. government be in control of the auto industry rather than a foreign one.

3. Find some sort of middle ground which is what this administration is attempting to do.

The question is which one sucks least because they all suck.

There is another alternative. It would not even be that difficult to do, but the current administration owes too much to the UAW Union to let this happen.

Keep in mind that the taaxpayers of this country have already ponied up a lot of money for GM and Chrysler.

For now, let's call that dollar amount $30 Billion. That is $30 Billion spent on 2 companies who control about 33% of the US market Share. As the market this year is going to be about 11 million vehicles at the highest projection, this is 3.3 million vehicles.

That works out to $9000 per vehicle.

Ok ... let's let that simmer, and look at a real stimulus package and rescue plan.

1. Tell GM and Chrysler to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. The Feds will offer to cover warranty costs during this time period. Compared to the cost of the bailout, this is less than a penny on the dollar.

2. Appoint Mitt Romney to negotiate the terms of the re-emergence from bankruptcy. He is a capable businessman, has Michigan roots, and it would also serve to bring bi-partisanship into the equation.

3. Ford would voluntarily agree to abide by the same rules as are placed on the other 2 companies.

4. The blue collar employees would get the same compensation plan that Toyota and Honda employees get. While we are at it, the Union officials would be out of a job. They add nothing of value. I will personally offer Mr. Gettelfinger a job selling cars at our Ford dealership.

5. The white collar work force would be pared to the commensurate size and pay packages as Honda and Toyota have here for their North America work force.

6. Make zero interest loans available to the "big three". Stop with the "Here's a check, get back to us in 60 days with a plan" stuff.

7. Offer a $5000 Tax credit on any "Big three" purchase and a $2500 for a non "Big three" purchase.

Now watch the showrooms fill with customers wanting cars.

 

[aberkowitz]

7. Offer a $5000 Tax credit on any "Big three" purchase and a $2500 for a non "Big three" purchase.

Now watch the showrooms fill with customers wanting cars.

This would only work if there were no income restrictions placed on the tax credit. It's a pretty safe assumption to say that in this economy much of the car buying will not be driven by people in the lower tax brackets. As somebody who is looking to purchase a new car this summer and somebody who falls within the higher tax brackets, I would definitely give much greater consideration to buying a big 3 car if I were eligible for such a tax credit.

 

[JLMEMT]

Obama is no less qualified than the people who have already run these companies into the ground. The current CEOs of the big 3 have literally zero automotive background and come from marketing or financial backgrounds and therein lies the problem. Americans need to get a grip!!

Even if that is true, WHICH I DOUBT, doesn't he have enough to do without running every major corporation in the country???


As to why I doubt it. Try that Obama has never even run a shoe store, much less a major corporation or country.

 

[craigsub]

This would only work if there were no income restrictions placed on the tax credit. It's a pretty safe assumption to say that in this economy much of the car buying will not be driven by people in the lower tax brackets. As somebody who is looking to purchase a new car this summer and somebody who falls within the higher tax brackets, I would definitely give much greater consideration to buying a big 3 car if I were eligible for such a tax credit.

Absolutely, and we all know some politician is going to demagogue the issue that the tax credits are going to help the "rich" under this scenario.

AND ... in case anyone think I have an issue with the blue collar employees at any company, I don't.

I do have a problem with Union Officials who use these employees for their own personal gain, which is what the Union Bosses at the UAW do today.

On what is hopefully a humourous note ... Does anyone think Mr. Gettelfinger would take a job working at a dealership getting straight commission ?

 

[JLMEMT]

Absolutely, and we all know some politician is going to demagogue the issue that the tax credits are going to help the "rich" under this scenario.

AND ... in case anyone think I have an issue with the blue collar employees at any company, I don't.

I do have a problem with Union Officials who use these employees for their own personal gain, which is what the Union Bosses at the UAW do today.

On what is hopefully a humourous note ... Does anyone think Mr. Gettelfinger would take a job working at a dealership getting straight commission ?

I like the idea that it could come to that! But I don't believe it will ever happen!

I have not met a union offical I can respect yet!

 

[Nemo128]

GM was doing so well before, why get rid of their CEO?

No, wait... asking for taxpayer dollars to sustain operations... free market at its best.

And to whoever it was talking about how great their dealership did, do you see Ford asking for federal funds? Yeah, neither do I.

Brand redundancy, inferior engineering and quality control, gross overexpenditures, and poor management killed GM years before Obama was even a politician. Chrysler has been a concept company for decades, putting out crapbox after crapbox while resting on their achievements from yesteryear and their Leno-only one-offs.

 

[jcilforever]

Hahaha....

Sorry dude....no offense but that was funny.

Maybe you should wikipedia Mercedes Benz, they have been the author of every major breakthrough in the automotive industry basically since its inception.

Don't get me wrong, Toyata, and Honda make amazing vehicles, but certainly not cutting edge. Other than maybe the Nissan GTR.

Was not talking about innovation in automotive was talking about the way they run their manufacturing.

 

[jcilforever]

Most of your post is opinion. Let's take a look at something objective.

In the 2009 JD Powers reliability survey, There were 17 vehicle lines which were listed as above average. By country, they break down as:

Japanese: 6 Lines
American: 6 Lines
European: 4 Lines
Korean: 1 Line

And for below average, there were 20 Lines, and they break down as follows:

Japanese: 6 Lines
American: 7 Lines
European: 6 Lines
Korean: 1 Line

This is a third party who sends out surveys to people who have bought the cars soon after their purchase. How is this objective about overall quality over the last 14 years

My comments were from first hand experience in the manufacturers plants

 

[Nemo128]

Maybe you should wikipedia Mercedes Benz, they have been the author of every major breakthrough in the automotive industry basically since its inception.

Airbags were invented by an American and first used by Ford and GM.

ABS was first used on airplanes in the 1930s (1929 to be exact) and first used successfully in a car by Chrysler.

First seatbelts were used by Ford.

Variable valve timing was first used in automotive engines by Fiat in the 1960s.

The list goes on and on. First hybrid drivetrain? Nope. First fuel cell vehicle? Nope. First forced induction ICE? Nope.

Most of Merc's innovations were improvements to systems that were already developed. Notable exceptions are the use of crumple zones as a crash safety chamber and traction control. Those they were responsible for first and only.

They took the idea of front brakes and applied it to all 4 wheels in the 1920s, for example, but they did not invent brakes. They were the first European company to feature air bags, but they didn't invent them.

And the most important invention in car manufacturing? The moving assembly line, courtesy of Ford, which has revolutionized ALL manufacturing everywhere in every industry.

Merc was responsible for every major automotive breakthrough? Ha.

And these are the things I remember without Wiki. Back to OP topic now?

 

[craigsub]

This is a third party who sends out surveys to people who have bought the cars soon after their purchase. How is this objective about overall quality over the last 14 years

My comments were from first hand experience in the manufacturers plants

1. Is there a problem with a third party doing this ? Perhaps you would feel better if Toyota ran the survey ? Besides owning the dealerships, I also work in the long term warranty industry, and have access to the average claims per vehicle sold over the past 20 years. If you want any specifics, just ask.

2. Here is a paragraph directly from JD Powers:

The study, which measures problems experienced by original owners of three-year-old (2006 model year) vehicles, has been redesigned to include 202 different problem symptoms across all areas of the vehicle. Overall dependability is determined by the level of problems experienced per 100 vehicles (PP100), with a lower score reflecting higher quality. The study is used extensively by vehicle manufacturers worldwide to help design and build better vehicles—which typically retain higher resale values—and by consumers to help them make more-informed choices for both new and used vehicles.

Do you see the part about this being about three year old vehicles ? Each manufacturer is rated by the dependability of vehicles purchased three years ago until today.

3. As a Ford dealer, I have visited several of our factories. There is no "parking lot" of vehicles that need repair.