$1300 on Yamaha 4600 rendered USELESS in 3 years (what should I do)

[jozeph78]

Please, before you read. I'm not complaining. I realize things become obsolete. I just want to know what you guys would do in my situation, and how to best use what's left my Yamaha 4600.

So when I bought this guy three years ago, I opted for the 4600 which had better amps than the 2600. The 2700 was also out at the time, but I think I'd be in the same boat with not as good of an amp at this point (aside of some dollars saved). Now with my new Panasonic g10 (shameless gloat), I'm finally getting a chance to see xv color, 10-bit, blah blah.. but wait. No HDMI 1.3. Not only does it not have HDMI 1.3, but it doesn't even do OSD over HDMI. I thought I would be saved since the Panny does optical out, but it converts to stereo output so that's a total loss of surround. So now I have, at least what I consider to be, a monster amp that can't process video for ****. So what should I do??

I though about getting a nice pre-amp processor and using the 7.1 direct input on the Yamaha, effectively making it a stupid amp (a very nice stupid amp). Should I take advantage of additional processing or keep it as pure as possible from the Pre through the Yamaha? Is 7.1 direct in the best course or would I be better off doing digital out from a Pre to the Yamaha?

The other problem with going Pre-amp is COST. Good lord the ones that do a lot cost more than the 4600 and the pre-amp is the very thing that becomes obsolete. I do have an eye on the Emotiva UMC-1 as it seems almost too good to be true at the price point. Are there any other Pre-Processors you guys would recommend?

Or am I over valuing this as an amp? Would I be better off going for another, cheaper integrated receiver. I really like the look of the new Onkyo 607. I don't really have huge quality needs for the amplifier, I just don't like the idea of downgrading and tossing what I thought would last me for 10 or more years. However, money is a little tight right now and the Onkyo would probably tide me over until I can do a real pre/post solution down the line. Heck I've even been looking at the Yamaha HTR line as I'm just looking for something to get my HDMI on. =)

Apologies if this is scatterbrained, I'm typing at work and shouldn't really be on for this long. I think you guys get the gist. How can I best use my 4600? In conjunction with a Pre-Processor or should I suck it up and cut my losses, and go value until I can get a real pre/pro solution (I'll NEVER spend top dollar on integrated A/V again)? Is there even any after market value in the 4600? I wouldn't post it for use here as I feel the cunning crowd of Audioholics would rip to shreds its uselessness at the very thing it's designed to do, be an A/V receiver.

What would you audio experts do? I really appreciate any feed back you guys have to offer. Thanks in advance.

 

[PENG]

What do you want the RX-V4600 to do that it cannot do?

 

[skers_54]

If I understand what you're saying, you don't think that you can use your receiver with your BD player b/c the receiver doesn't have HDMI 1.3. I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure you don't have to have HDMI 1.3 to get Blu-Ray audio and video. My receiver is only 1.1, doesn't decode any of the new formats and I get 1080p and lossless audio with the player set to do the audio decoding.

 

[lsiberian]

Please, before you read. I'm not complaining. I realize things become obsolete. I just want to know what you guys would do in my situation, and how to best use what's left my Yamaha 4600.

So when I bought this guy three years ago, I opted for the 4600 which had better amps than the 2600. The 2700 was also out at the time, but I think I'd be in the same boat with not as good of an amp at this point (aside of some dollars saved). Now with my new Panasonic g10 (shameless gloat), I'm finally getting a chance to see xv color, 10-bit, blah blah.. but wait. No HDMI 1.3. Not only does it not have HDMI 1.3, but it doesn't even do OSD over HDMI. I thought I would be saved since the Panny does optical out, but it converts to stereo output so that's a total loss of surround. So now I have, at least what I consider to be, a monster amp that can't process video for ****. So what should I do??

I though about getting a nice pre-amp processor and using the 7.1 direct input on the Yamaha, effectively making it a stupid amp (a very nice stupid amp). Should I take advantage of additional processing or keep it as pure as possible from the Pre through the Yamaha? Is 7.1 direct in the best course or would I be better off doing digital out from a Pre to the Yamaha?

The other problem with going Pre-amp is COST. Good lord the ones that do a lot cost more than the 4600 and the pre-amp is the very thing that becomes obsolete. I do have an eye on the Emotiva UMC-1 as it seems almost too good to be true at the price point. Are there any other Pre-Processors you guys would recommend?

Or am I over valuing this as an amp? Would I be better off going for another, cheaper integrated receiver. I really like the look of the new Onkyo 607. I don't really have huge quality needs for the amplifier, I just don't like the idea of downgrading and tossing what I thought would last me for 10 or more years. However, money is a little tight right now and the Onkyo would probably tide me over until I can do a real pre/post solution down the line. Heck I've even been looking at the Yamaha HTR line as I'm just looking for something to get my HDMI on. =)

Apologies if this is scatterbrained, I'm typing at work and shouldn't really be on for this long. I think you guys get the gist. How can I best use my 4600? In conjunction with a Pre-Processor or should I suck it up and cut my losses, and go value until I can get a real pre/pro solution (I'll NEVER spend top dollar on integrated A/V again)? Is there even any after market value in the 4600? I wouldn't post it for use here as I feel the cunning crowd of Audioholics would rip to shreds its uselessness at the very thing it's designed to do, be an A/V receiver.

What would you audio experts do? I really appreciate any feed back you guys have to offer. Thanks in advance.

From what I can tell your Receiver can receive multi-channel audio via hdmi.
That means you only need to have your player decode it and send it as multi-channel PCM.

There is no need to ditch, replace, upgrade or do anything to your receiver. it's perfectly fine for HD stuff. You need to configure your player to output 7.1 Linear PCM

Don't be silly or crazy. What you have is just fine and probably has a better amp section than any of the cheaper receivers now.

 

[jozeph78]

From what I can tell your Receiver can receive multi-channel audio via hdmi.
That means you only need to have your player decode it and send it as multi-channel PCM.

There is no need to ditch, replace, upgrade or do anything to your receiver. it's perfectly fine for HD stuff. You need to configure your player to output 7.1 Linear PCM

Don't be silly or crazy. What you have is just fine and probably has a better amp section than any of the cheaper receivers now.

Ok so maybe it's harsh to say useless, but it's way outdated on the video end.

The HDMI support just really blows on this thing. For the audio stuff I agree the HDMI is ok, but for video it blows. It cannot pass through the 1.3 dependent features video features which I was very happy about having on my new Panny. It also cannot upscale any of the inputs to HDMI nor can it display the OSD via HDMI. Only having two inputs is not so bad as switchers aren't a problem ( i do have 4 sources), but compromising my video quality ticks me off, and the inconvenience of requiring components and switching inputs on the TV all the time is annoying when there are $500 receivers that do.

Maybe it's crazy. I guess I'm a feature junkie more than audiophile, but I'd rather have a single HDMI into the TV with full 1.3 functionality than a higher quality amp. That said, I'll never buy another integrated A/V receiver, because I like high quality amps, but I don't like throwing them away to get a new feature every 3 years.

So would getting a Pre-amp and doing 7.1 HDMI or RCA from pre to Yammy until I can replace Yammy with descrete amps (after I get good use out of it) be a good way to go?

You guys are free to bash me for being stupid about it. Feel free to say why I'm being crazy and what you would do in my situation.

 

[Highbar]

Well there are a couple of things that I can think of here that I don't see as bad things. The OSD over HDMI, do you really need it? Honestly how often are you changing settings? I'll have to use mine again when I get my new speakers this week but next to that I hardly ever use it. Just run a composite cable when you need it.

Now you say you have 4 sources, what are they? Are they all HDMI? How do you have everything hooked up now?

I say if you want to take advantage of all the features then just run HDMI straight to the TV for video and run 7.1 analog outs to the receiver. That's what I was going to do before I scored a deal on my 2808. Now if your BluRay player doesn't have analog outs that's a problem, but you could probably sell it and buy one that does.

Now lastly... If you are one of those people that needs to have the newest features all the time, and there's nothing wrong with it just most of us don't feel that way. You are going to need to upgrade more than every 3 years. New features come out all the time, it could get really expensive really quick, for example the new dolby PLIIz or whatever it's called that adds front hieght speakers. And I'm sure next year there will be something else.

If I were you I would look into getting a switcher, run my video through that and than one cable to the TV. and my audio to the receiver with analog or digital cables depending on what the source is.

Either way it's your money, if you want to get the new features and wont be happy without them than get something that has them. If you want to use the 4600 as an amp then make sure that you get something with preouts either a pre/pro or a new receiver.

We can only tell you what we would do, not what will make you happy.

 

[ggunnell]

One thing you could do is buy a DVDO Edge video processor. Yeah, they're $799 list, but I've seen them much cheaper -- ask around.
The main thread on them is here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1051246

The neat thing about the EDGE is (aside from updating you to the latest ABT 2010 video processor with lots of adjustable features, and great picture quality) is that it has, in addition to the regular HDMI output jack, a second HDMI output jack that outputs the audio signal only (actually it's audio + blank 720p video). So you can send the audio to your 4600, and the processed video to your display.

 

[jozeph78]

ggunnell: Wow that DVDO is pretty nice there. I might look more into that. Are there any other similar products out there?

This would totally salvage my Yamaha for many years to come. I like it very much. Another great thing about it is it allows me to use my TV speakers and HDMI inputs without having to turn the receiver on. When doing late night watching of comedy central, no need to wake the neighbors. That thing is almost heavenly perfect, I'm already pricing it out.


To Highbar: My 4 HDMI sources are Xbox Elite, PS3, DVR and PC. I'm using component for the xbox and vga for the pc right now. Obviously, I'd love to consolidate that. I don't need the "newest of new" but I'm peaved that in order to get some new features I have to sacrifice this lovely amp. Thanks to ggunnell, I might not have to.

Thanks for you comments guys!

 

[jozeph78]

I just realized I could run the Yamaha back into the DVDO component which will upscale it to HDMI resolve every problem I have in life. Audioholics is too good man I swear I love this place.

 

[jozeph78]

One thing you could do is buy a DVDO Edge video processor. Yeah, they're $799 list, but I've seen them much cheaper -- ask around.
The main thread on them is here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1051246

How much cheaper have you seen them? I saw one place for 515 but it was real shady. Most legit places are 699 new.

Also, could I use the Emotiva UMC-1 and an HDMI splitter to achieve the same effect of dual HDMI output provided by the DVDO EDGE? I assume I'd need and active and not passive HDMI splitter?

Bummer the Emotiva is also not actually out yet and there are no hands on reviews. I'd like to see what the differences between the two units are and what the video scaling quality is on each.

 

[ggunnell]

TheNerds.net has the lowest price I see right now at just over six bills.

Ahem -- I've got several Yamaha receivers in my house (including a 4600) and used as preamps they all sound better than my Emotiva DMC-1. I'ts close enough that I'll put it this way -- you are unlikely to gain anything sonically by going to an Emotiva prepro (or, from the posts I've read, the Outlaw 990). As multichannel prepros, the step up from the Yamaha's sonically is the Onkyo/Integra prepro.

The DVDO is in another category of video processing from what's bundled in receivers and prepros -- I'd LIKE to be able to say "except the Yamaha Z7" but until Yamaha gets the bugs worked out . . .

 

[jozeph78]

Wow that's nice to hear about your 4600 and that you like it. So do you use a DVDO or the DMC with it or do you not have the same video needs that I have.

The one nice thing about the UMC-1 vs the DVDO is that it has 7.1 vs only Optical/HDMI out. That would lend itself nicely in the plan to gradually go pre/pro as well as manage my immediate situation.

But I kinda like the DVDO as a video only processor. Plus, I can actually buy one today vs who knows when for the UMC. It will also allow me to leverage use the awesome audio processing functionality of my 4600 rather than dumbing it down to a "clean" amp.

Quick question though, could I run the HDMI output of the UMC through a splitter to send one to receiver and another to TV without any issues? I'm scared of handshaking and DHCP issues. Are splitters splitters or is there a certain type/brand/model I shoudl shoot for.

 

[ggunnell]

In reverse order, I'd 'Search' here and at AVS on HDMI splitters for recommendations. The one in the Edge is known to work.

Except with certain other recent ABT processors, such as the one in the Z11, which won't work with either the OPPO 183 or the DVDO Edge. Both my 183 and my Edge worked great with my 3800 though, and I've heard no reports of incompatibility with pre-Z11 Yamaha's. I'm sorry I don't have time right now to move the 4600 back into the rack to test it for you, but I would expect no problems.

You already have an excellent preamp section in the 4600.

Another option for you is to sell the 4600 and get a Denon 2309 -- don't go smaller with Denon if you want 4 ohm drive capability. It's video processing, although not up to Edge standards, is reportedly pretty bug free, and you get all the latest Audyssey room correction stuff. Read up on it and see if it would work for you.

 

[jozeph78]

Wow... thanks for offering to test it. I didn't realize how deep the rabbit hole was for HDMI compatibility.


I'm not sure what I could get aftermarket on the 4600. I think I'll just add the EDGE and keep the 4600 to process and amp the EDGE output. It will be a really sexy setup actually since I can route the component back through the EDGE for OSD over HDMI.

I can't thank you enough ggunnell. I'll message you back once I get it to let you know how it works.

 

[Highbar]

Quick question though, could I run the HDMI output of the UMC through a splitter to send one to receiver and another to TV without any issues? I'm scared of handshaking and DHCP issues. Are splitters splitters or is there a certain type/brand/model I shoudl shoot for.

I know you already settled on the DVDO witch is an awesome solution but as to your question I don't think so. Since the UMC is a pre/pro I'm guessing that it's HDMI out is going to be video only because it is doing the audio processing and why would you want to process it twice?

 

[ggunnell]

. . . I think I'll just add the EDGE and keep the 4600 to process and amp the EDGE output. It will be a really sexy setup actually since I can route the component back through the EDGE for OSD over HDMI. . . .

Hmm ... You're suggesting placing the DVDO downstream of the 4600, and letting the DVDO transcode Component video from the 4600 to HDMI to your display? Problems: It might not work, because some places in an HDMI chain can accept 'repeaters' and some can't -- a receiver 'monitor out' would have no reason to support anything except an HDMI 'termination'. More importantly, (and I'm not an expert on the technical details), you want all your video processing as close to the source as possible, and then pass through all the way to the display.

Your display does have an unused component, S-video, or composite input, right? So in addition to the HDMI connection, just connect one of your 4600's other monitor outs to your display, and your 4600's GUI is a press or two of your display's Input button away. . .

 

[jozeph78]

I know you already settled on the DVDO witch is an awesome solution but as to your question I don't think so. Since the UMC is a pre/pro I'm guessing that it's HDMI out is going to be video only because it is doing the audio processing and why would you want to process it twice?

Even if I use the 7.1 out from UMC-> 4600 I'd be processing it double (right?). I just wanted the convienence of single cable and higher quality of Digital vs RCA connectors from pre to my 4600.

 

[jozeph78]

Hmm ... You're suggesting placing the DVDO downstream of the 4600, and letting the DVDO transcode Component video from the 4600 to HDMI to your display? Problems: It might not work, because some places in an HDMI chain can accept 'repeaters' and some can't -- a receiver 'monitor out' would have no reason to support anything except an HDMI 'termination'. More importantly, (and I'm not an expert on the technical details), you want all your video processing as close to the source as possible, and then pass through all the way to the display.

Your display does have an unused component, S-video, or composite input, right? So in addition to the HDMI connection, just connect one of your 4600's other monitor outs to your display, and your 4600's GUI is a press or two of your display's Input button away. . .

I wouldn't place the 4600 downstream, I would just feed the component video output though the edge (note not any audio). This is strictly for the 4600's OSD, I don't plan use any A/V functionality through 4600. This is just so I have a single connection from edge to TV and do all input switching though the EDGE instead of EDGE and TV. There will be a woman operating this thing =). If it doesn't work, I can just go straight from 4600 to the TV Component input. It might be better in fact so I can actually listen to the source as I adjust it, so I wouldn't be too out of luck if it didn't work.

Two quick questions:

Does the EDGE push Audio through both HDMI outputs? (Please say yes). I'd like to be able to watch TV without firing up the 4600 for audio. (ANSWER YES) I just found it out.

Would you consider purchasing a refurb of this unit? I found one at nextdaypc ( dot com) for $518 2nd day shipped. I know that's a matter of personal preference but certain electronics are better suited for referb. I assume this 100% solid state box would perform well as a referb but I'd like a 2nd opinion if it's worth saving $100 bux.

 

[Highbar]

Even if I use the 7.1 out from UMC-> 4600 I'd be processing it double (right?). I just wanted the convienence of single cable and higher quality of Digital vs RCA connectors from pre to my 4600.

Yeah, at that point no matter what the output it would be processed unless it had a pure direct mode for sources that come in as 2 channel. Anything coming into the UMC as HDMI would have to be processed to pull it out of the HDMI bit stream. There really wouldn't be a quality difference since at some point the audio gets converted to analog no matter what it would just be easier to run one cable instead of 8.

I agree that running the composite to the Edge would be nice to get the 4600's OSD to the TV over HDMI but like you said you wont be able to listen to any of the sources as you adjust them. I think it would be best to just run the composite to the TV, you would only need to switch the input when making adjustments.

 

[jozeph78]

Yeah, at that point no matter what the output it would be processed unless it had a pure direct mode for sources that come in as 2 channel. Anything coming into the UMC as HDMI would have to be processed to pull it out of the HDMI bit stream. There really wouldn't be a quality difference since at some point the audio gets converted to analog no matter what it would just be easier to run one cable instead of 8.

Thanks for taking the time to chime in. I appreciate all the discussion this has generated.