Botulism?! I need your help.

Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Have you been taking Andry lessons? :p
I'm coming in a bit late on this thread and I read it pretty quickly. I'm not clear, did the can explode? If yes, that is a dangerous sign of botulism contamination.

DO NOT EAT THE CONTENTS!!!!

If it is botulism, they may have other contaminated cans. Call the store to tell them what happened as they may have a legal obligation to act on your information. They may have to report this to a state or federal public health agency.

The bacteria that cause botulism cannot grow in the presence of oxygen, but the toxin they produce can survive after the bacteria are dead. Boiling the contents - a vigorous rolling boil for at least 10 minutes - will inactive the toxin.

The best thing to do is put the cans in plastic bag and bring them back to the store.
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
I'm coming in a bit late on this thread and I read it pretty quickly. I'm not clear, did the can explode? If yes, that is a dangerous sign of botulism contamination.

DO NOT EAT THE CONTENTS!!!!

If it is botulism, they may have other contaminated cans. Call the store to tell them what happened as they may have a legal obligation to act on your information. They may have to report this to a state or federal public health agency.

The bacteria that cause botulism cannot grow in the presence of oxygen, but the toxin they produce can survive after the bacteria are dead. Boiling the contents - a vigorous rolling boil for at least 10 minutes - will inactive the toxin.

The best thing to do is put the cans in plastic bag and bring them back to the store.
so, he should not eat the contents ... but if he boils it for 10 minutes, he can? :D

or did you mean he should boil himself? :D
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
so, he should not eat the contents ... but if he boils it for 10 minutes, he can? :D

or did you mean he should boil himself? :D
In theory, if he boils the crap out of it, it should be safe to eat. In practice, I'd send the whole lot back. If one can exploded, that means every can made in that same lot is contaminated.

I know everyone is kidding here, but botulism poisoning really can kill people. It's hard to joke around with something this lethal.
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
don't worry, it looks like Tomorrow has 6 lives left.* :D

*unless majorloser left out a few "secret" things. :)
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
It's hard to joke around with something this lethal.
The chances of Tomorrow eating anything ever again seem pretty slim right now. The 'growth' (hehehe) seems to be on the paper wrapper on the outside of can as opposed to anything coming from within the can. It's simply not what it seems. Kind of like the Babe Ruth in Caddy Shack. :)

 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
In theory, if he boils the crap out of it, it should be safe to eat. In practice, I'd send the whole lot back. If one can exploded, that means every can made in that same lot is contaminated.

I know everyone is kidding here, but botulism poisoning really can kill people. It's hard to joke around with something this lethal.
Thanks for your input, Swerd. Yeah, just because it's me, these guys like to toss the elbows into my ribs with their jokes. It's because they love me. A lot. :rolleyes: I love them, too....and I'LL GET EVEN!

But for those who don't know, botulism poisoning can occur with exposure to only a few nanograms! (It's one of the deadliest toxins known to man and is considered potentially a bioterrorism threat.) Believe me, we got the heebie-jeebies when we pulled the cover back and the missus pulled the can out. Of course we washed our hands thoroughly, but one doesn't know until one gets sick or doesn't. There is no test for the poisoning.

Yes, the can had erupted...which I guess is more correctly descriptive than 'exploded'. There is no reason a can of soup, well under the "best by" date and just purchased should do this...other than some nasty crap in the soup. I'm seriously hoping the stuff had been aerobic for more than a couple of hours when we handled it. But I just don't know. I'd like to think it erupted last week and that really is mould growing on the moisture. We'll eat none of the two cases we purchased with this mfg code....doncha worry about that. In fact, I may never eat C.N. soup again. (For years now, I actually eat...er, had eaten...a can of it almost every day because of swallowing difficulties resulting from cancer treatment. It's one of the few things that goes down easily.)

But just in case I suddenly stop posting here....somebody smack Alex up side the head. :p

:D
 
speakerman39

speakerman39

Audioholic Overlord
RJ, this is really scary. I just bought (5) cans of the same soup this morning myself. Not sure if I ever will eat any more soup period. :eek::eek: Anyways, sure hope you and the wife are okay. I will be sure to keep you both in my prayers. ;);)

Cheers,

Phil
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
But just in case I suddenly stop posting here....somebody smack Alex up side the head. :p

:D
Oh $h!t !!! :D I am so sorry. :( LMAO !!! :) I guess it's not like moldy cheese where you just scrape the green fuzz off. :eek:

I had no idea the can erupted. :eek:

So when was the last time you ate? Last Tuesday? :D Alright, I'll stop. I know not everything is a joke and I wish you and the Mrs. nothing but the best. Really, that's it. No more jokes. ;)
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
Oh $h!t !!! :D I am so sorry. :( LMAO !!! :) I guess it's not like moldy cheese where you just scrape the green fuzz off. :eek:

I had no idea the can erupted. :eek:

So when was the last time you ate? Last Tuesday? :D Alright, I'll stop. I know not everything is a joke and I wish you and the Mrs. nothing but the best. Really, that's it. No more jokes. ;)
Why I oughta.....

Alex, if and when I stop chuckling at your posts, I'M GONNA BE THE ONE to smack you upside the head. (And I'm so old, you wouldn't dare hit back. :eek: Would you?!)

EDIT: Note new sig.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Man, you have got such a bad case of 'The Cooties' at this point that if you even look like you're gonna make any move off the Pacific Coast, I'm swimming back to the Chernobyl site. At least their green glows in a pretty neon hue.

You stay on your coast and I'll stay on mine.
R 'biochemical hazard' J, it's got a nice ring to it. :)

How are you gonna handle that plague contaminant anyway?
And don't send the wife back in. :rolleyes:

I love the sig. :)
 
majorloser

majorloser

Moderator
Too late Mike :p

This thread has such an important subject it got spammed the first day.
You should feel honored RJ :)
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
forgot about the totaled pickup.

5 lives left

major, anymore secret missions RJ went on?
 
majorloser

majorloser

Moderator
Well there was that whore house down in Tijuana. :rolleyes: (jk)


Hey, Tomorrow, Did I ever tell you I worked in sewage treatment plants for years? You want to talk about strange things growing and getting all over you. And let's not talk about the times I had to go swimming. :eek:
(Corn and condoms can be tough to get out of your hair)
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
forgot about the totaled pickup.

5 lives left

major, anymore secret missions RJ went on?
Okay...just for you, Mikey-the-Secret-Assassin. (***-***-in. :))

1. Campbell's Soup Bioterrorism Attack. :)
2. Cancer :(
3. Heart Attack :mad:
4. Jet Crash :eek:
5. Bambi Attack :cool:
6. Rare Milkweed Caterpillar Attack ;)
7. Dislocated Shoulder While Bodysurfing in Storm Surf :eek:
8. Allergic Anaphylaxis (see #6) :confused:
9. .....Spot Saved For "Friends" :D

Then there was the time I tried to bribe the Tia Juana cop......
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
Too late Mike :p

This thread has such an important subject it got spammed the first day.
You should feel honored RJ :)
Nothing says love and mom like a steaming bowl of Campbell's chicken noodle soup made in New Jersey. Ahhhhh.......
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
In theory, if he boils the crap out of it, it should be safe to eat. In practice, I'd send the whole lot back. If one can exploded, that means every can made in that same lot is contaminated.

I know everyone is kidding here, but botulism poisoning really can kill people. It's hard to joke around with something this lethal.
This thread is lethal!

Tomorrow said the can exploded, so I assume he means the contents were under pressure.

If that is so, the contents of the can have been contaminated with a gas forming organism. Usually in canning when this occurs, the organisms involved, are usually of the genus clostridia. The most dangerous is Clostridrium Botulinum.

Now these organisms have a spore state, as well as a bacillus state. In their spore forming state they can not be killed by boiling. So in commercial canning, or home canning, the contents must be boiled above atmospheric pressure to achieve a spore killing temperature, 121 degrees C for 18 minutes, or 135 degrees C for two minutes.

If this is not achieved in canning, then these organisms which can only reproduce in the absence of Oxygen (obligatory anaerobes), start to reproduce in the can. Gas is formed which pushes the can out, and will explode it over time. At the same time toxins are often formed by these organisms. If the organism is clostridium botulinum, then the botulism toxin is formed. On a weight for weight basis this is the most poisonous substance on earth. It is a powerful paralytic neuro toxin.

Now these toxins once formed are heat stable, so you can boil it all you want but the toxin is NOT destroyed, and if the food is ingested, it will kill you, unless your institution can get botulinum antitoxin in time. It still will be a severe illness requiring a significant period of time on life support at the best.

Gas forming organisms can also cause tissue infections. In recent years anerobic streptococci, have been a particular problem. Once the infection takes hold, gas forms in the tissues with rapid necrosis (death) of tissue. Once gas has formed in the tissue, the infection can no longer be cured with antibiotics alone. All devitalized tissue has to be promptly and extensively surgically removed, even if amputations are necessary.

This types of cases were among the most difficult we used to confront in our ICUs.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
Nothing says love and mom like a steaming bowl of Campbell's chicken noodle soup made in New Jersey. Ahhhhh.......
That explains everything. (Made in NJ:rolleyes:)
On the bright side you didn't get charged extra for the mold; like you would if you lived here.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
… Now these toxins once formed are heat stable, so you can boil it all you want but the toxin is NOT destroyed, and if the food is ingested, it will kill you, unless your institution can get botulinum antitoxin in time. It still will be a severe illness requiring a significant period of time on life support at the best.
I agree with everything you said, except that botulinum toxin is heat stable. Dormant c. botulinum spores do require 121° C for 20 minutes to be killed, but the toxin they produce is much more sensitive to heat.

Botulinum toxin is a two subunit protein with a total molecular weight of about 150,000. It is a potent neruotoxin that blocks acetylcholine release at the neuromuscular junction with a median lethal dose about 1 nanogram. Heating it to boiling temperature will denature the protein and render it non-toxic. Studies have shown that brief exposure to temperatures as low as 60° C (140° F) inactivates it.


Licciardello, J.J., J.T. Nickerson, C.A. Ribich, and S.A. Goldblith. (1967). Thermal inactivation of type E botulinum toxin. Appl Microbiol. 15:249-256.

The theoretical required cooking times for inactivation of type E Clostridium botulinum toxin (5,000 ld(50) mouse units per 0.5 ml) in haddock fillets of various sizes were calculated by graphical integration of the toxin inactivation rate and heat penetration data. The results indicated that normal cooking procedures should suffice to inactivate this amount of toxin. This conclusion was substantiated by the following additional experimental observations which revealed that the original experiments had been conducted under conservative conditions. First, maximal heat stability of the toxin was found to occur at about pH 5.5, with decreasing resistance upon increasing pH. The theoretical cooking times were based on destruction of the toxin at pH 6.7. The pH of radio-pasteurized inoculated haddock, when toxin production had occurred, was on the alkaline side, at which condition the toxin is heat-labile. Second, when spoilage was discernible in radio-pasteurized inoculated haddock, the toxin titer was low, about 50 LD(50) mouse units per 0.5 ml. Third, the toxin was adequately inactivated in toxic fillets after deep-fat frying for 3 min at 375° F (190.6° C) or after pan frying for 5 min per side at 400° F (204.4° C). Fourth, in this study, residual toxin activity was assayed by intraperitoneal injection of mice. It was shown that the oral toxic dose was 50 to 100 times greater than the intraperitoneal toxic dose.


Licciardello, J.J., C.A. Ribich, J.T. Nickerson, and S.A. Goldblith. (1967). Kinetics of the thermal inactivation of type E Clostridium botulinum toxin. Appl Microbiol. 15:344-349.

Rate of inactivation curves for the "free" toxin, prototoxin, or activated toxin in crude filtrates of Clostridium botulinum type E were nonlinear, consisting of a fast inactivating rate followed by a slow inactivating rate. Thermodynamic parameters were calculated over a temperature range of 125° to 145° F (51.7° to 62.8° C) for the two different inactivation rates. Energy of activation was low at the lower temperature and high at the higher temperature. The thermal requirement for inactivating similar concentrations of the "free" toxin, prototoxin, or activated toxin was considered to be the same.
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
This thread is lethal!

Tomorrow said the can exploded, so I assume he means the contents were under pressure.

If that is so, the contents of the can have been contaminated with a gas forming organism. Usually in canning when this occurs, the organisms involved, are usually of the genus clostridia. The most dangerous is Clostridrium Botulinum.

Now these organisms have a spore state, as well as a bacillus state. In their spore forming state they can not be killed by boiling. So in commercial canning, or home canning, the contents must be boiled above atmospheric pressure to achieve a spore killing temperature, 121 degrees C for 18 minutes, or 135 degrees C for two minutes.

If this is not achieved in canning, then these organisms which can only reproduce in the absence of Oxygen (obligatory anaerobes), start to reproduce in the can. Gas is formed which pushes the can out, and will explode it over time. At the same time toxins are often formed by these organisms. If the organism is clostridium botulinum, then the botulism toxin is formed. On a weight for weight basis this is the most poisonous substance on earth. It is a powerful paralytic neuro toxin.

Now these toxins once formed are heat stable, so you can boil it all you want but the toxin is NOT destroyed, and if the food is ingested, it will kill you, unless your institution can get botulinum antitoxin in time. It still will be a severe illness requiring a significant period of time on life support at the best.

Gas forming organisms can also cause tissue infections. In recent years anerobic streptococci, have been a particular problem. Once the infection takes hold, gas forms in the tissues with rapid necrosis (death) of tissue. Once gas has formed in the tissue, the infection can no longer be cured with antibiotics alone. All devitalized tissue has to be promptly and extensively surgically removed, even if amputations are necessary.

This types of cases were among the most difficult we used to confront in our ICUs.

Thank you for this, Mark. Can you say whether there are other contaminants that could cause the can's eruption? What might actually be the risk considering our handling of the can and surrounding stuff?

I have worked my way through the agencies, and now it seems the FDA is going to investigate this. Oh my..."Hi. We're the government. We're here to help you." But I didn't know where else to go. Costco considers it a serious matter and is currently investigating whether or not to pull all of their C.N. soup.

I really appreciate any further information you might have to provide, Mark.

I must say that more than a few of the comments on this thread have surprised me, though. I've tried to play the nice guy about it because I like people and humor, too. But some of the comments have bordered on offensive and inappropriate. Before people try to lighten up a serious thread, a few here should have a little more consideration for the situation. I posed the thread because of my concern, especially for my wife and her handling of what I thought (and wanted confirmation of it) to be a deadly substance that required near immediate response. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in my post. I've learned a lot about this and other forums over the years, but response to this thread has surprised me. But I guess us old guys are slow to grasp certain realities. I think I've now learned to be much more reserved with my sharing of personal stuff in the future. My bad.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Thank you for this, Mark. Can you say whether there are other contaminants that could cause the can's eruption? What might actually be the risk considering our handling of the can and surrounding stuff?

I have worked my way through the agencies, and now it seems the FDA is going to investigate this. Oh my..."Hi. We're the government. We're here to help you." But I didn't know where else to go. Costco considers it a serious matter and is currently investigating whether or not to pull all of their C.N. soup.

I really appreciate any further information you might have to provide, Mark.

I must say that more than a few of the comments on this thread have surprised me, though. I've tried to play the nice guy about it because I like people and humor, too. But some of the comments have bordered on offensive and inappropriate. Before people try to lighten up a serious thread, a few here should have a little more consideration for the situation. I posed the thread because of my concern, especially for my wife and her handling of what I thought (and wanted confirmation of it) to be a deadly substance that required near immediate response. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in my post. I've learned a lot about this and other forums over the years, but response to this thread has surprised me. But I guess us old guys are slow to grasp certain realities. I think I've now learned to be much more reserved with my sharing of personal stuff in the future. My bad.
Hi Tomorrow

I'm not Mark, but when it comes to this subject I do know what I'm talking about.

All we know is the soup cans erupted and that should never happen. There are a variety of microorganisms that could cause that to happen. As Mark described, the worst case is a number of different spore forming bacteria species that produce toxins that can make you very sick (at best) or can kill you. We don't know which one caused your soup can to burst. But if the FDA is interested, they will find out and trace it to the food processors who made and canned the soup. If it turns out to be botulism, expect public announcements of recalls of Campbell's chicken noodle soup in the news. This is seriously dangerous stuff.
 
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