Dolby Digital 5.1 & DTS Master HD

[SVT CAMR]

Are these uncompressed versions?
I have Direct TV (HD)and receive dolby digital 5.1 on most channels. The receiver automatically shows this on the receiver front panel. Using HDMI cable from satilite box to the receiver.

I also have a Blu-Ray player and get Dolby True HD which automatically shows on the receiver's front panel when the correct DVD is used.
I have come across 1 DVD so far that gave me DTS HD Master Audio 7.1
Using a HDMI cable from Blu-ray to the receiver.

My A/V receiver is an Onkyo TS-SR605. (I'm very happy with it)
This receiver supports the above formats that I have listed.

My question is... are these the bitstream uncompressed outputs? What does codec mean? What does Lossless mean? What does bitstream mean?
Is this the best it gets for what I have? The DTS HD Master Audio BLEW ME AWAY... Can some one go into detail about these modes? Can someone explain what uncompressed Audio means?

I just want to make sure I'm not leaving any thing on the table.
This is my first post here a thank you. Danny

 

[Adam]

Welcome to the forum, Danny!

Wikipedia actually does a nice job of explaining those terms, so I won't go into all of them here. To answer some questions, though:

1. Dolby Digital is a lossy compression format. This means that some of the audio information is lossed when the audio is compressed to save space
2. Lossless compression is supposed to not have any lost audio information, but it takes more storage space to hold the same duration of audio as compared to a lossy format. This is why lossless formats are on blu-ray (or HD-DVD) because those discs can hold a lot more information.
3. Codec stands most commonly for "coder decoder". The surround sound formats are encoded into a stream of information, and then that stream needs to be decoded in order to extract the audio information for each channel (or speaker)

 

[sptrout]

Adam did a great job explaining the audio formats, but I will add one more that you will see on some Blu-ray disks: LPCM. This format is also lossless and is the same as the "unzipped" results of TrueHD & DTS-HD MA. In other words, LPCM (or just PCM) = DTS-HD MA = TrueHD. All should sound the same (but there are a few folks out there that favor one or the other). (BTW - - I do not know of any AVR that supports the new HD formats that will not also support LPCM.)

 

[SVT CAMR]

Thank you for the responses. I will read more and learn. I realize there are some real heavy hitters here now. I thought I knew a few things and now realize I know just the basics.

I guess my real question is are these setting I'm using the optimum settings that I need to select on my receiver for watching TV and playing BR discs? I have my BR player set to direct in the audio menu.(the other choice was down mix)
There are so many other settings on my receiver but, I thought that those settings were like tricking the signal. (Fake surround)
Are you guys familiar with my receiver Onkyo TS-SR605? I know it's not the best out there but, just want to get the best output that it offers. I have read through the manual at least 20 times and fully understand how to work the unit but all these setting are confusing me and the more I read the more I get confused when talking about compression. I always thought that compression was a bad thing for audio. One other question should I be using a toslink cable instead of HDMI cable for audio? Thanks again audioholics Adam and sptrout.

 

[mperfct]

Thank you for the responses. I will read more and learn. I realize there are some real heavy hitters here now. I thought I knew a few things and now realize I know just the basics.

I guess my real question is are these setting I'm using the optimum settings that I need to select on my receiver for watching TV and playing BR discs? I have my BR player set to direct in the audio menu.(the other choice was down mix)
There are so many other settings on my receiver but, I thought that those settings were like tricking the signal. (Fake surround)
Are you guys familiar with my receiver Onkyo TS-SR605? I know it's not the best out there but, just want to get the best output that it offers. I have read through the manual at least 20 times and fully understand how to work the unit but all these setting are confusing me and the more I read the more I get confused when talking about compression. I always thought that compression was a bad thing for audio. One other question should I be using a toslink cable instead of HDMI cable for audio? Thanks again audioholics Adam and sptrout.

What kind of BRP do you have? Most likely direct will be your best option, and you want to use HDMI for audio..not toslink. You can only push DD/DTS over toslink/d-coax, and you need to use HDMI to push DTS-MA/Dolby True-HD.

And you *do* have a nice receiver, don't worry if you don't have Rotel or whatever. There are no snobs here. If you want to talk to them, I have a few forums you can visit.

And to address compression...it is always bad, at least with video/audio. Compression is only good with word docs.

 

[lsiberian]

The difference between Dolby and Direct is about 5 or 6 db. DTS is around 4 db on my receiver.

So Direct is preferred, but only certain tracks have direct and of those not all are superb IMO.

I find that blu-rays are far more dynamic, but this isn't always a good thing in home listening. Especially if you watch movies at night.

So all formats have their tradeoffs. from a pure SQ standpoint 7.1 LPCM is the best followed by 6.1 LPCM, 5.1 LPCM, DTS-Mater Audio HD, and Dolby True HD, DTS Neo 6, Dolby EX(i think that's right), DTS, Dolby Digital, Stereo,Mono(i'm too young to expand on the bottom 2 or 3.)

I think toslink only does up to Neo6 depending on the player receiver. HDMI does everything higher. Of course a PS3 decodes everything so it will pass audio as LPCM. So you only have to have 7.1 LPCM handling with a PS3.

 

[lsiberian]

My A/V receiver is an Onkyo TS-SR605. (I'm very happy with it)
This receiver supports the above formats that I have listed.
The DTS HD Master Audio BLEW ME AWAY(

Get a good 7.1 LPCM movie and you will be even more surprised.

 

[SVT CAMR]

What kind of BRP do you have? Most likely direct will be your best option, and you want to use HDMI for audio..not toslink. You can only push DD/DTS over toslink/d-coax, and you need to use HDMI to push DTS-MA/Dolby True-HD.

And you *do* have a nice receiver, don't worry if you don't have Rotel or whatever. There are no snobs here. If you want to talk to them, I have a few forums you can visit.

And to address compression...it is always bad, at least with video/audio. Compression is only good with word docs.

My BRP is a BDP-BX1
I know what you mean I was googling and I think I found some of those sites. When I found this one to be a perfect fit for me.
Thank you for your response. Danny
BTW. How come I cannot create a signature? like you Audioholics? Is it because I'm still in training?

Get a good 7.1 LPCM movie and you will be even more surprised.

I never knew or heard of 7.1 LPCM I will be looking forward to it.
Most of the movies I find are Dolby True HD.
I was surprised when I saw the 7.1 DTS HD Master Audio.
It was on "The Invincible Iron Man" Blu-Ray of course. The kids loved it and I was happy to here my system in a new format.
I'm not sure if my receiver does 7.1 LPCM? I'll check it out. Do you have any suggestions for movies playing in 7.1 LPCM? Honestly it does not matter what it is. I just want to hear what this format is all about.

 

[mperfct]

My BRP is a BDP-BX1
I know what you mean I was googling and I think I found some of those sites. When I found this one to be a perfect fit for me.
Thank you for your response. Danny
BTW. How come I cannot create a signature? like you Audioholics? Is it because I'm still in training?

Danny,

I think you have to have 5 posts before you can do a lot of things on this site.

Welcome to the forum, stick around, and after you've learned a lot, pass it on down and fill up on chicklets (the green reputation bar).

Regards,

Chris

 

[SVT CAMR]

Danny,

I think you have to have 5 posts before you can do a lot of things on this site.

Welcome to the forum, stick around, and after you've learned a lot, pass it on down and fill up on chicklets (the green reputation bar).

Regards,

Chris

K! I'll be sticking around!
I was on your home page. Jones big truck rental! HA HA!
The funny part is that area code (708) is around my neck of the wood here in the Chicago land area.

 

[Davemcc]

The difference between Dolby and Direct is about 5 or 6 db. DTS is around 4 db on my receiver.

So Direct is preferred, but only certain tracks have direct and of those not all are superb IMO.

I find that blu-rays are far more dynamic, but this isn't always a good thing in home listening. Especially if you watch movies at night.

So all formats have their tradeoffs. from a pure SQ standpoint 7.1 LPCM is the best followed by 6.1 LPCM, 5.1 LPCM, DTS-Mater Audio HD, and Dolby True HD, DTS Neo 6, Dolby EX(i think that's right), DTS, Dolby Digital, Stereo,Mono(i'm too young to expand on the bottom 2 or 3.)

I think toslink only does up to Neo6 depending on the player receiver. HDMI does everything higher. Of course a PS3 decodes everything so it will pass audio as LPCM. So you only have to have 7.1 LPCM handling with a PS3.

Where to start...where to start? This whole post is nonsense...gibberish.

The difference between Dolby and Direct are like apples and eggplants. Dolby and DTS are formats encoded on the disc and selected in the disc menu. Direct/downmix is a user setting in the player setup menu that, accounting for variations in manufacturer's terminology, seems to select the encoding method. Since you see True-HD and DTSHD-MA on you panel display, direct is the setting to choose bitstream encoding. If you were sending PCM, the receiver would not show the format but would instead say something like multichannel, etc. The dB difference between Dolby and DTS is irrelevant to sound quality but is rather a function of the processing that each format uses.

As mentioned, your players use of the term direct is the method to select bitstream. The comment that only certain tracks have direct is nonsense. All media in all formats played by the player when it is set in direct will be sent to the receiver as a bitstream signal and all media should sound the same even if you downmix that to a PCM signal, although there are some questions and opinions surrounding that.

BluRays may be more dynamic if you are using an HD format. However, if you are playing a standard DVD or non-HD format, it should sound identical to a standard player. It is reading and sending the exact same digital information off the disc to the receiver.

Where the comparison is made to sound quality of formats, just ignore this completely. It's like a discussion of preference between petunias and kumquats for use as a hammer...did I say nonsense... First, choose bitstream or PCM, as you have in your player menu. The difference here is where the decoding will take place. In bitstream, the raw data will be sent to the receiver and the receiver will decode it. In PCM, the player will decode it and send the decoded signal to the receiver. Usually, this choice is to allow receivers that do not decode certain formats to be able to play the signal without actually doing the coding. Really, it should have no effect on sound quality. Then you can choose a format in the disc menu, TrueHD and DTSHD-MA being the best, DTS and Dolby Digital being next and anything else simply inferior. Neo6, EX, stereo, mono and a number of other choices are sound field selections in the receiver and are not formats at all. They are there to allow you to alter any programming to your preferred type of sound.

Toslink will send all formats up to and including Dolby Digital and DTS but it will not transfer HD formats. The suggestion that "toslink only does up to Neo6" is also nonsense, since Neo6 is sound field processing done in the receiver and is not selected at the source and is not sent anywhere, toslink or otherwise. The PS3 will not bitstream. It will only send PCM so everything you get from a PS3 is PCM. Don't bother looking for media with "7.1 LPCM handling". It doesn't exist. LPCM is not a function of the media you select. It is a choice of processing in your setup menu that applies to all media regardless of format.

Did I get everything??????????

 

[SVT CAMR]

Where to start...where to start? This whole post is nonsense...gibberish.

The difference between Dolby and Direct are like apples and eggplants. Dolby and DTS are formats encoded on the disc and selected in the disc menu. Direct/downmix is a user setting in the player setup menu that, accounting for variations in manufacturer's terminology, seems to select the encoding method. Since you see True-HD and DTSHD-MA on you panel display, direct is the setting to choose bitstream encoding. If you were sending PCM, the receiver would not show the format but would instead say something like multichannel, etc. The dB difference between Dolby and DTS is irrelevant to sound quality but is rather a function of the processing that each format uses.

As mentioned, your players use of the term direct is the method to select bitstream. The comment that only certain tracks have direct is nonsense. All media in all formats played by the player when it is set in direct will be sent to the receiver as a bitstream signal and all media should sound the same even if you downmix that to a PCM signal, although there are some questions and opinions surrounding that.

BluRays may be more dynamic if you are using an HD format. However, if you are playing a standard DVD or non-HD format, it should sound identical to a standard player. It is reading and sending the exact same digital information off the disc to the receiver.

Where the comparison is made to sound quality of formats, just ignore this completely. It's like a discussion of preference between petunias and kumquats for use as a hammer...did I say nonsense... First, choose bitstream or PCM, as you have in your player menu. The difference here is where the decoding will take place. In bitstream, the raw data will be sent to the receiver and the receiver will decode it. In PCM, the player will decode it and send the decoded signal to the receiver. Usually, this choice is to allow receivers that do not decode certain formats to be able to play the signal without actually doing the coding. Really, it should have no effect on sound quality. Then you can choose a format in the disc menu, TrueHD and DTSHD-MA being the best, DTS and Dolby Digital being next and anything else simply inferior. Neo6, EX, stereo, mono and a number of other choices are sound field selections in the receiver and are not formats at all. They are there to allow you to alter any programming to your preferred type of sound.

Toslink will send all formats up to and including Dolby Digital and DTS but it will not transfer HD formats. The suggestion that "toslink only does up to Neo6" is also nonsense, since Neo6 is sound field processing done in the receiver and is not selected at the source and is not sent anywhere, toslink or otherwise. The PS3 will not bitstream. It will only send PCM so everything you get from a PS3 is PCM. Don't bother looking for media with "7.1 LPCM handling". It doesn't exist. LPCM is not a function of the media you select. It is a choice of processing in your setup menu that applies to all media regardless of format.

Did I get everything??????????

You did! Thank You for confirming that the Direct setting on the Blu-Ray is bitstream and is the best I'm going to get going into this receiver when using blu-ray movies.(true hd & 7.1 master hd) So that means I set it up right! When watching standard movies I will get pcm. Got it! My preference when the receiver is in pcm mode is all channel stereo. Thanks for stepping in. I was second guessing all I have learned in the last year.
Also thank you for clearing up the toslink hook up. I'm glad I did not waste my $ on toslink cables.
I do have one more question for you. You say"in bitstream the raw data will be sent to the receiver and the receiver will decode it."
Does this mean it is uncompressed audio when the blu-ray movie is being decoded from the receiver in true hd & dts hd master?

 

[Davemcc]

When watching standard movies, you will still be bitstreaming the DD or DTS signal for the the receiver to decode. It is not limited to the HD formats. Any time there is an encoded signal, it will be sent in it's raw form to the reciever. Cd's are PCM source (so I guess in a sense it is a function of the media you select, just not in a discussion of surround formats) and are transferred as is since there is no decoding to do.

Yes, from my understanding, the bitstream signal of HD formats from BluRay via HDMI are uncompressed signals being decoded in the receiver.

 

[SVT CAMR]

I want to thank everybody who replied to this thread. It was my first thread and a bunch of things have been cleared up for me. This is a great site. I'm glad I found you people. It's nice to know that I'm not the only one who really cares about attention to detail. Nobody I know cares about the things that are discussed on this site or even wants to learn. Everything I learned up to this point was just getting things to work. I knew nothing about theory or why these formats do what they do. I have learned some new stuff here on this site. Thanks Audioholics.

 

[mperfct]

I want to thank everybody who replied to this thread. It was my first thread and a bunch of things have been cleared up for me. This is a great site. I'm glad I found you people. It's nice to know that I'm not the only one who really cares about attention to detail. Nobody I know cares about the things that are discussed on this site or even wants to learn. Everything I learned up to this point was just getting things to work. I knew nothing about theory or why these formats do what they do. I have learned some new stuff here on this site. Thanks Audioholics.

No thanks needed, this is what we do. Now only if the pay was better.

 

[Davemcc]

How is it just complete nonsense. it was based on my own observations which I guess are nonsense.

See post 11. Relating your experience and observations is fine if you if you do it in a manner that relates to how things actually work. Your post was a mass of confusion over disc settings, player settings and DSP modes.

To be clear, DD, DTS. DTS-HD MA, DD+, TrueHD, etc. are the audio formats selected in the disc menu. Bitstream and PCM are choices in the player's setup menu irrespective of what choice you made in the disc menu. DSP modes, like Neo6, Cinema, Hall, PLIIx, etc. are chosen in the receiver to process the audio signal after it is received from the player.

 

[lsiberian]

See post 11. Relating your experience and observations is fine if you if you do it in a manner that relates to how things actually work. Your post was a mass of confusion over disc settings, player settings and DSP modes.

To be clear, DD, DTS. DTS-HD MA, DD+, TrueHD, etc. are the audio formats selected in the disc menu. Bitstream and PCM are choices in the player's setup menu irrespective of what choice you made in the disc menu. DSP modes, like Neo6, Cinema, Hall, PLIIx, etc. are chosen in the receiver to process the audio signal after it is received from the player.

I'm sorry the post was made under high stress. It's been a crazy week at work. Thanks for clearing up the confusion Dave. This is why I like a forum. When you spit up a confusing muddling post. Someone cleans up the mess. My head hasn't been clear most of the week.

To add to the discussion. And this may have been stated. SQ is more of a product of the studio and movie than the format. I just watched Transformers on Blu-ray this week and it has a better dolby track than many of the Blu-rays with LPCM tracks.

The most important thing in our system is still the speakers.

Dave there are Blu-rays with LPCM tracks on them. Though I'm sure you already knew that. So Linear PCM can be a track format and not just a player streaming method.

 

[Davemcc]

This is why I like a forum. When you spit up a confusing muddling post. Someone cleans up the mess.

This is so true. I meant no offense and should have posted more discretely, so I apologize for that. I always stand ready to be corrected on anything I post. Personally, I consider being corrected by someone more knowledgeable than me as a great way to learn and there is a vast number of members here who have a great deal more knowledge than I.

Dave there are Blu-rays with LPCM tracks on them. Though I'm sure you already knew that. So Linear PCM can be a track format and not just a player streaming method.

Are these BD's recorded in multi-channel without surround encoding in dolby or dts? I haven't looked for that particular format. Since PCM is simply the basic mode of digital audio signal transmission, much like your basic CD player, I don't really see any particular advantage to this one it's face value. If you give me a couple titles in that format, I'll check it out. I learned something here today myself.