Little help on a new subwoofer

[Matt34]

If the Velodyne sub falls through keep your eye peeled for a used SVS PB-10. I've seen a few go for $200. If I see that again, I just may pick it up for that price.

 

[Shintsu]

lol, I spoke with the local high end and ultra high end audio dealer. What a hoot. First off, he does know what he's talking about - companies send him exclusive speakers and stuff and he tells them how to change it and they really do listen to him. He does however talk down about a lot of the cheaper brands (And I believe he'd define those as Polk, Technics, Pioneer, etc etc).

So I ask him if he has any musically accurate subs for $300. FLAME ON. He tells me no friggin' way basically. At least $700+. Then tells me the wire I'm using (happens to be Monster, not my choice but it was thick wire and a fair amount of it and I paid $5 for all of it). He tells me I need to be spending at least $5 to $10 a foot on wire. $150 on wires or so. Need expensive wires for my interconnects, and all sorts of stuff like that. I believe he's the type who'd buy the $20,000 speaker wires (He probably has some for that matter).

So funny, my friend described him and he's just like he said. Very knowledgable, however a bit snobbish about equipment (But I guess years and years of exclusive high end extremely limited production equipment makes you that way). He did say my system was headed in the right direction but seemed to implicate I should have all one brand (All NAD, all Adcom) which I'm not a fan of especially - I buy what I get a deal on and what's good.

But when I told him Velodyne, he basically laughed. Said he told them no years ago that he wouldn't carry their products. I told him the price I could get one and he said it won't be musically accurate at all. Not even slightly. But taken with a grain of salt, since he thinks I need to spend gobs and gobs of money on speaker wire which many of the people I know in the audio world locally say are pointless. One had a standing offer of anyone picking out the cheap crap wire speaker compared to the expensive wire and no one could do it 5 for 5 (He said he'd buy them a new piece for their setup). I imagine he'd scoff at the thought of any SVS subwoofers as anything more than cheap garbage.

Just an interesting viewpoint I decided to consult. This guy is very much into imaging and setting a sound stage and has the nicest stuff and the best setup that will allow you to picture someone singing exactly where he says they will exactly how he says they will.

I'm trying to go for the Velodyne though!

 

[TLS Guy]

lol, I spoke with the local high end and ultra high end audio dealer. What a hoot. First off, he does know what he's talking about - companies send him exclusive speakers and stuff and he tells them how to change it and they really do listen to him. He does however talk down about a lot of the cheaper brands (And I believe he'd define those as Polk, Technics, Pioneer, etc etc).

So I ask him if he has any musically accurate subs for $300. FLAME ON. He tells me no friggin' way basically. At least $700+. Then tells me the wire I'm using (happens to be Monster, not my choice but it was thick wire and a fair amount of it and I paid $5 for all of it). He tells me I need to be spending at least $5 to $10 a foot on wire. $150 on wires or so. Need expensive wires for my interconnects, and all sorts of stuff like that. I believe he's the type who'd buy the $20,000 speaker wires (He probably has some for that matter).

So funny, my friend described him and he's just like he said. Very knowledgable, however a bit snobbish about equipment (But I guess years and years of exclusive high end extremely limited production equipment makes you that way). He did say my system was headed in the right direction but seemed to implicate I should have all one brand (All NAD, all Adcom) which I'm not a fan of especially - I buy what I get a deal on and what's good.

But when I told him Velodyne, he basically laughed. Said he told them no years ago that he wouldn't carry their products. I told him the price I could get one and he said it won't be musically accurate at all. Not even slightly. But taken with a grain of salt, since he thinks I need to spend gobs and gobs of money on speaker wire which many of the people I know in the audio world locally say are pointless. One had a standing offer of anyone picking out the cheap crap wire speaker compared to the expensive wire and no one could do it 5 for 5 (He said he'd buy them a new piece for their setup). I imagine he'd scoff at the thought of any SVS subwoofers as anything more than cheap garbage.

Just an interesting viewpoint I decided to consult. This guy is very much into imaging and setting a sound stage and has the nicest stuff and the best setup that will allow you to picture someone singing exactly where he says they will exactly how he says they will.

I'm trying to go for the Velodyne though!

Those so called high end dealers, just never get it! No wonder they are on the endangered species list! Good luck with the Velodyne. They produce the goods, but in a controlled way, they fit the description of what you say you are looking for.

 

[Shintsu]

Hehe, definitely not many left like him for sure. His business is out of his home. He has really good stuff, but he's definitely snobby. I'm surprised he actually said my system was decent (Headed in the right direction).

As you did say, the C3 didn't help the problem with the subwoofer - but it's a nice unit no matter and can't hurt anything. I'm hoping it will clean up my cable image a little and keep any future ground loop hum from occurring. It does have two plugs specifically filtered and labeled amplifier and subwoofer so hopefully that will keep any AC noise out. I have no idea if it did it before but I notice when switching to the CD input on my preamp I hear no noise at any volume level (no hiss).

Anyway, hopefully will be purchasing the Velodyne soon. Thanks for all the help so far everyone!

 

[scooterp7]

If I plan on doing a DIY sub (purchase a driver and enclosure) do I have to buy an amp to go into the enclosure or can I drive it with a pro amp that I already own.

Edit: Nevermind, I just found this:

"Most people do not use an on-board amp for the Kappa DIY subs, so you will just need to mount a terminal plate on the sub. The recommended amp for that build is the Behringer EP2500.

http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHEP2500

I was on a budget and went with a less powerful amp, but I'm sure mine would be insufficient for a large room."

 

[Shintsu]

I tried to bid on it. I watched it up until 3 seconds. I bid on it, denied. Sold for $205 + $82 shipping. Gone.

I'm done looking for a subwoofer. Hell with it, I'll live without. Mother****ing eBay is the worst organization in the world, and I never want to do any business with those pieces of ****...thanks anyways everyone.

 

[Shintsu]

Okay, a typical angry overreaction of mine. I'm still borderline on giving up after finding nothing else truly worthy. You all have thoroughly persuaded me away from the Dayon SUB-120 as it is far too cheap build quality for me. The Velodyne is gone. I had located a Klipsch KSW-10 for $80 which I was ready to jump all over for that price - gone before I even had a chance to look at it and I tried so damn hard.

My current considerations (A farcry from what I was looking at - I'm seriously pissed) are a Velodyne CHT-10 for $225 ($200, but I have to pay the guy $25 to deliver it since he's so damn far from me but he is local) and this Definitive Technology sub (The guy says Powerfield but I haven't heard of a 10" powerfield they make) for $275 shipped. I'm trying to find some info on the Definitive, namely the RMS wattage since I know 700 watts is the peak. At least this is a BIN and not just a random fate bid.

I'm so borderline on just saying WTF and ordering the Polk PSW10 even though I know it won't be the best for low bass because it's not an 8" and it's only $100 and new. I'm looking to pay these people $200-$275 for a used 10". Admittedly much more wattage but eh, I'm not thoroughly impressed with too many 10" drivers so why pay a whole lot more for one unless it's substantially better. I tried to find a used SVS PB10-NSD hoping to find one for maybe $300 given the $430 new pricetag but no such luck.

I'm especially PO'd given that all this stuff is ported. Nothing sealed. Good bye accuracy...I even tried to knock the guy with the Velodyne off his little high price of $200 and told him the story of that FSX-12 for the same money and it had no effect. While total cost is less, I am essentially paying the same $200 for a lower end 10" non-servo sub that I could've had a 12" servo for. I've given my fate up to pure luck of used equipment - there's nothing new I can get that's any good or that's affordable to me. This stuff is designed for big kids on a limitless budget - and when it's designed for people on a budget you get Dayton...

Any further advice or should I just concede and buy the PSW10 that I've been leaning towards the whole time?

EDIT: Hah, scratch the PSW10 out - did a little looking around and uh, yeah it's $100 for good reason. So allow me to rephrase my question:
Any further advice or should I just give up and live without a subwoofer?

 

[alexwakelin]

Don't give up, be patient. I built my Kappa 12.1 sub for under $300. It took me a few weeks of bargain hunting for deals on the driver and amp, but something will turn up for you.

 

[WmAx]

Shintsu, a properly designed ported subwoofer gives up nothing in sound quality, and in fact, is superior to sealed for sound quality, as it will have lower distortion and more dynamic headroom available if comparing the same capability of driver in both circumstances.

Now, to get off that specific topic: I think you need to NOT buy anything right now and continue to save your money so that you can purchase a subwoofer of sufficient quality for your purposes. If you want a sealed unit, I can specify parts for a superb quality sealed unit using a pre-finished/pre-painted 3 cubic foot sealed cabinet and a very specific 12" driver and very specific plate amplifier suited to this application. While this would be a premium quality subwoofer, it would cost about 650-700 dollars USD total. There is no sealed commercial equivalent that will match my recommendation for even twice that dollar amount. If interested, I will specify the parts needed and the reason why the driver is extraordinary for the application.

-Chris

 

[lsiberian]

So I ask him if he has any musically accurate subs for $300. FLAME ON. He tells me no friggin' way basically. At least $700+. Then tells me the wire I'm using (happens to be Monster, not my choice but it was thick wire and a fair amount of it and I paid $5 for all of it). He tells me I need to be spending at least $5 to $10 a foot on wire. $150 on wires or so. Need expensive wires for my interconnects, and all sorts of stuff like that. I believe he's the type who'd buy the $20,000 speaker wires (He probably has some for that matter).

This is the point at which I start to think about other things. Like how to leave. Why would someone spend that much on wire?

Go with Chris's help and you will blow yourself away with quality.

 

[Matt34]

Another option I would consider would be two TSC ASW-10" subs. I have the 8" versions and find them to do very well for the $85/ea I paid for them.

 

[Shintsu]

Well, the only problem with that - I really don't have room for two subs. My final vision for this room is to get a new entertainment center and an A/V tower and given that setup, there's room for only a single sub. Does the ASW-10 have better build quality than the Dayton? I can't tell so much, it still looks a little iffy (and I certainly can't tell much going from pictures alone). Does it have an LFE input?

Also, how is the T250 for $100 more? I do like their free shipping 30 day trial free return shipping. Kinda seems like you can't lose there. One thing I'm noticing though, the ASW-10 looks pretty skimpy in the weight department at around 30 lbs. The Velodyne CHT-10 I was considering weighs around 50 lbs and is also a 10" driver which makes it seem like there's more there.

 

[Matt34]

Well, the only problem with that - I really don't have room for two subs. My final vision for this room is to get a new entertainment center and an A/V tower and given that setup, there's room for only a single sub. Does the ASW-10 have better build quality than the Dayton? I can't tell so much, it still looks a little iffy (and I certainly can't tell much going from pictures alone). Does it have an LFE input?

Also, how is the T250 for $100 more? I do like their free shipping 30 day trial free return shipping. Kinda seems like you can't lose there. One thing I'm noticing though, the ASW-10 looks pretty skimpy in the weight department at around 30 lbs. The Velodyne CHT-10 I was considering weighs around 50 lbs and is also a 10" driver which makes it seem like there's more there.

I can't comment on the Dayton but for the money the build quaility is fine on the ASW subs, if your trying to do some research on the TSC subs also look up the Energy ESW subs as they are just rebadges of them.

Just don't go in thinking your going to get platium on a copper budget.

 

[Captainmorgan89]

What about a BIC-H100? Or Premier Acoustics 120?

Its a damn shame you missed the Outlaw LFM-1 Compact

 

[Shintsu]

The BIC would be nice, but I haven't really seen any anywhere. I saw this on eBay however, and this is more than one. Given these specs, $230 seems very reasonable. Are there any reviews of this subwoofer available? I'm not as familiar with BIC - don't they normally make all those in-wall speakers and whatnot? In any case, I'm liking the looks and those controls on the front look very handy.

Now please help me here - what is the difference between that subwoofer and this one? They're the same model according to the listings but the cheaper one is higher RMS wattage.

The Outlaw looks nice, albeit a bit on the light side compared to the 60 lb BIC at only 34 lb. Given I'll pay $225 for a Velodyne CHT-10 150 watt RMS used subwoofer and that BIC for $230 at 200 watt RMS new it looks much much nicer. I'll give that serious consideration, thanks for that!

 

[Shintsu]

Okay, so the Velodyne CHT-10 is at it's lowest price I can get the guy to take - $200. My question: Is the Velodyne good at $200 or is it worth $30 more to get the Premier Acoustic PA-120 12" sub which is brand new with free shipping? Does anyone own or know of any reviews about the PA-120 to speak for it?

 

[TLS Guy]

Okay, so the Velodyne CHT-10 is at it's lowest price I can get the guy to take - $200. My question: Is the Velodyne good at $200 or is it worth $30 more to get the Premier Acoustic PA-120 12" sub which is brand new with free shipping? Does anyone own or know of any reviews about the PA-120 to speak for it?

I would go for the Velodyne.

Premier Acoustic do not quote the F3 of that sub, they just say response to 24 Hz which means nothing. To me the ports looks far too small for a 12' woofer. I would bet the rent there is severe port compression and very likely chuffing.

The Velodyne has a slot vent, which is likely to yield far better results. I see nothing to tempt me to recommend the PA-120.

 

[Shintsu]

Okay, given the price the Velodyne is for what it is - am I better off to wait for something to come along that may be better or to get that?

 

[TLS Guy]

Okay, given the price the Velodyne is for what it is - am I better off to wait for something to come along that may be better or to get that?

You seem to have put a very decent system together on a shoe string. I would be patient and wait for something better to turn up.

I'm very concerned that you are very adverse to boom, and like a well controlled bass. Also you do a lot of music listening not just HT. Now that does not preclude a ported sub, but it likely precludes a cheap ported sub.

All things being equal, you will not save money by looking for smaller drivers. You can make a very good sub with an 8" driver. However the motor system for an 8" driver will have to be more complex and costly, that the one for a 12 or 15" driver.

Also a good sealed driver and sub will cost more, as the bass has to be boosted. This means a bigger amp and a more robust and costly driver.

Unfortunately reproducing the last octave does not come cheap.

Subs are an area where going the DIY root really saves a lot of cash. You can easily build a really good sub and not spend a fortune, and best a sub that is a king's ransom. I know that you have not wanted to go the DIY route though.

 

[Shintsu]

Thanks, I think I'll wait - I was leaning this way as well since I'm hoping I can get lucky and spot another decent sub like the KSW-10 for something like $80. Subs don't ever seem to turn up at Goodwill sadly...

My original intention was to purchase the sub for movies and games and still is a large portion of the use it will serve. However, I would like it to compliment my bookshelf speakers for music as well without sounding awful and terribly inaccurate.

I know I've asked several times but I want to make sure you're not referencing something new - are we still talking about that Dayton "You finish the rest" DIY kit or something even more basic? I would imagine tracking down a decent cabinet then finding a good amp and speaker would be a rather pain and could sound very different than other subs so I have none to compare mine to. I have the help of someone experienced in electronics and soldering so that's truly not a problem - I'm just making sure the woodworking is not necessary. I didn't have a shop class at my school or any such and never really built anything so handing me some wood and a powersaw may not end well.

I'm not completely opposed to DIY, I just like the ease and simplicity of a pre-manufactured subwoofer which has all these factory specs that can be cited and what not. My DIY sub may be off because of how I put it in or the cabinet I chose over someone elses. I have no audio test equipment like an SPL meter or any such to test any of this. A DIY just seems like a daunting and lengthy process to me.