Do I need more power or a different brand?

[Yammy Fan]

I have a Yamaha RX-V 461 that I am unhappy with its sound quality. I realize that it is an entry level receiver, and I want to upgrade to a better receiver that offers accurate, detailed sound reproduction. I listed to mostly music, but also movies in 5.1 surround. I have Klipsch Reference RB 51/2 speakers in my HT, and (2) NHT Ic4 (8" in ceilings rated to 125 WPC), assigned to my "B" terminals, in a room 35' away from the receiver. The amp in my receiver struggles to compress any of the woofers in my system at any volume. The only way I can hear strong mid-bass from my bookshelves is to use the Music Enhancer feature, even while playing a CD w/ a optical connection!

The SQ is far worse from my NHTs, unlike the demo I heard from the dealer where I bought it. They sounded very full with tight bass and crisp highs then. Not so with my RX-V 461.

How much power do I need? I am seeking a significant improvement in SQ! I know my speakers are capable of much more. Should I switch to Marantz or some other brand instead of moving to a RX-V 1800 for example? Can I find all of this in a receiver without moving to external amps?

 

[TLS Guy]

I have a Yamaha RX-V 461 that I am unhappy with its sound quality. I realize that it is an entry level receiver, and I want to upgrade to a better receiver that offers accurate, detailed sound reproduction. I listed to mostly music, but also movies in 5.1 surround. I have Klipsch Reference RB 51/2 speakers in my HT, and (2) NHT Ic4 (8" in ceilings rated to 125 WPC), assigned to my "B" terminals, in a room 35' away from the receiver. The amp in my receiver struggles to compress any of the woofers in my system at any volume. The only way I can hear strong mid-bass from my bookshelves is to use the Music Enhancer feature, even while playing a CD w/ a optical connection!

The SQ is far worse from my NHTs, unlike the demo I heard from the dealer where I bought it. They sounded very full with tight bass and crisp highs then. Not so with my RX-V 461.

How much power do I need? I am seeking a significant improvement in SQ! I know my speakers are capable of much more. Should I switch to Marantz or some other brand instead of moving to a RX-V 1800 for example? Can I find all of this in a receiver without moving to external amps?

You have plenty of power to drive those speakers. Those speakers are not as good as you think they are. If you give them more power you will fry them.

It is the speakers you need to change first.

 

[Midcow2]

I have a Yamaha RX-V 461 that I am unhappy with its sound quality. I realize that it is an entry level receiver, and I want to upgrade to a better receiver that offers accurate, detailed sound reproduction. I listed to mostly music, but also movies in 5.1 surround. I have Klipsch Reference RB 51/2 speakers in my HT, and (2) NHT Ic4 (8" in ceilings rated to 125 WPC), assigned to my "B" terminals, in a room 35' away from the receiver. The amp in my receiver struggles to compress any of the woofers in my system at any volume. The only way I can hear strong mid-bass from my bookshelves is to use the Music Enhancer feature, even while playing a CD w/ a optical connection!

The SQ is far worse from my NHTs, unlike the demo I heard from the dealer where I bought it. They sounded very full with tight bass and crisp highs then. Not so with my RX-V 461.

How much power do I need? I am seeking a significant improvement in SQ! I know my speakers are capable of much more. Should I switch to Marantz or some other brand instead of moving to a RX-V 1800 for example? Can I find all of this in a receiver without moving to external amps?

You currently have 100 watts per channel into 8 ohm 92 dB sensitivity speakers. 100 wtts is pretty good power and 92 dB is high efficiency ( should procude loud sound with minimal power). You should have pretty loud/full sound now.

Have you equalized you speakers with an SPL? Have you thought about acoustic treatments? That might be a first step.

The only problem with your current AVR is that you don't have pre-outs to add a power amp; that could provide more pucnh to your speakers and Audioholics has the Emotiva amps on sale now.

Marantz and RX-V1800 are very good AVRs but theycare not going to add that much more power and going to them alone probably won't make much of a notable difference (power is logrithmic). But they have pre-outs and you could easliy add a power amp that could provide more punch to your speakers. Audioholics has the Emotiva amps on sale now.

Good Luck!

MidCow2

 

[jamie2112]

I agree with Dr. Mark,its your speakers that need some upgrading.

 

[lsiberian]

I think Mid is right I think you need to eq the speakers and sound treat your room.

If that doesn't work then get better speakers or a better subwoofer.

8-ohm speakers don't really even need a lot of power.

Even if you got a real amp-pre-amp combo it wouldn't make a scientific difference.

 

[bigred7078]

8-ohm speakers don't really even need a lot of power.

.

I dont necessarily agree with this. Some 8ohm speakers can be very inefficient therefore they may need more power to get them to sing.

Other 8ohm speakers may take extremely low impedence dips (just because they are rated nominally at 8ohms does not mean thats where it stays) and would benefit from a powerful amp that is rated for a low impedence.

It all depends on the speaker in question. And in this case your right, these speakers really wont benefit THAT much with an amp. If your looking to "up" your experience check out a new receiver, or like others suggested check out some newer speakers. Also when you heard the demo at your dealer, was he using the same speakers that your using now? If not the demo was useless for you and would explain why you aren't hearing the same things. If it was the same equipment, then the room will play a HUGE roll in this. In most cases room treatments could easily fix this, but at this stage with the equipment you own i really think you would do yourself more justice by purchasing either a different receiver or new speakers that will give you what your looking for.

One last thing. Did you make sure and properly setup your receiver? like are you positively sure you have it setup correctly?

-Steve

 

[Yammy Fan]

I doubt that my AVR has a full 100 watts since they are rated at 1kHz rather than 20Hz-20 KHz, and because it is a lesser model than the popular 661/3 models. I had a Sony AVR before this one, rated at the same 100W, and it produced even less treble and mid-bass than this one!

My NHT Ic4 speakers have only an 87 Db sensitivity rating. I thought this is considered low for AVR this small...?

 

[markw]

I agree with the others.

Speakers determine 99% of the sound quality of the system.

5 1/2" is not really what I would call a woofer. What are you expecting?

With speakers, placement is everything.

Ceiling speakers are the worst thing one could do if music listenng is a major concern. By design their bass is limited due to lack of a proper enclosure. Think rear ambiance (surround) speakers or background music, like in a dentists office.

If you have to use a "music enhancer", which I read as some sort of equalizer, you most likely are boosting the bass to compensate for the lack thereof in your speakers. This WILL put a strain on your amp because you are sucking it dry. And, from what you describe, even that doesn't solve the probem. If you had speakers that better suited you wouldn't need to go through these contortions.

Good speakers sound good on pretty much any system, maybe a bit better on some than others, but still good. Mediocre speakers still sound mediocre, even on a great system.

Betcha if you had "real" speakers your opinion on that yammie would change. It ain't no powerhouse, but given half a chance it should more than satisfy.

IIWY, I'd be shopping for speakers, not a receiver.

 

[3db]

I doubt that my AVR has a full 100 watts since they are rated at 1kHz rather than 20Hz-20 KHz, and because it is a lesser model than the popular 661/3 models. I had a Sony AVR before this one, rated at the same 100W, and it produced even less treble and mid-bass than this one!

My NHT Ic4 speakers have only an 87 Db sensitivity rating. I thought this is considered low for AVR this small...?

You need to sloooooooooooooooooooow down just a bit and look at few factors first. Recievers/amps do not impact an acoustic signature nearly as much as speakers and or room acoustics. I'd say less than 5% impact.

1.) Look at room your room acoustics... I'm suspecting from your brief description that you are dealing with an overly dead room. Is there alot of over stufed firniture in the room, heavy drapes, anything porous that absorbs sound?
2.) Your listening position with resepect to the speakers may be poor. How far apart are your speakers? How far away is the chair/couch from the main sepakers? How far is the couch from the back wall? Have you tried movong your speakers to see if its improved the sound? How close to the walls are your speakers?

Your best bet is to go and read through some of the sites liliek Dolby, Audiohlolics University and other such sites to get a basic understanding of what HT and sound is all about.

 

[Midcow2]

Better speakers are better sound; but how to improve with existing speakers

I agree with Dr. Mark,its your speakers that need some upgrading.

Jamie,

I agree with you and Mark.

However I was going on what OP said that :

I have a Yamaha RX-V 461 that I am unhappy with its sound quality. ...
The SQ is far worse from my NHTs, unlike the demo I heard from the dealer where I bought it. They sounded very full with tight bass and crisp highs then. Not so with my RX-V 461. ...

.. so I was looking at what could possibly be the difference between his speakers and the same he heard in the dealer demo.


Better speakers = better sound.


Later,

MidCow2

 

[Cruise Missile]

Are you running a sub with your speakers? If so, what settings are you using (x-over, speakers set large or small) Etc. I also agree that speakers make the difference, but there are ways to make the most out of you set-up. Post up the details of your set-up. Give room dimensions, speaker placement, listner placement, and reciever settings and anything else you may think is relevant. The great thing about this forum is the level of help available especially if the members have good info about your set-up.

 

[Yammy Fan]

Thanks for all the feedback, guys!

My 2nd room, where my in-ceiling speakers are located, is really the place where I would like to improve my sound. They are positioned 13' apart from one another in a rectangular room that is 38' * 14'. The speakers are in the center of the ceiling and the room, and with large circles already cut in my sheetrock, they are not easily placeable as suggested earlier.

I was not clear in my first post about my in-store demo, when I was trying to describe the NHT Ic4 in-ceiling demo, not that of the Yamaha AVR demo. I do not remember which AVR they used at the time. I also, at the time, expected them to sound similar in my house as they did in the store's ceiling. They do not even sound like the same speaker, no less similar!! These are certainly not "background listening" speakers you would find at the dentist's office, they are made to ROCK.

Creating a box to mount over the magnet side of the speaker makes sense, but I remember listening to several sales people explain to me that in-ceiling speakers are designed to work in an large, open space (open baffle or some other term?).

 

[Midcow2]

Buy the Radio Shack SPL meter for $50.

Thanks for all the feedback, guys!

My 2nd room, where my in-ceiling speakers are located, is really the place where I would like to improve my sound. They are positioned 13' apart from one another in a rectangular room that is 38' * 14'. The speakers are in the center of the ceiling and the room, and with large circles already cut in my sheetrock, they are not easily placeable as suggested earlier.

I was not clear in my first post about my in-store demo, when I was trying to describe the NHT Ic4 in-ceiling demo, not that of the Yamaha AVR demo. I do not remember which AVR they used at the time. I also, at the time, expected them to sound similar in my house as they did in the store's ceiling. They do not even sound like the same speaker, no less similar!! These are certainly not "background listening" speakers you would find at the dentist's office, they are made to ROCK.

Creating a box to mount over the magnet side of the speaker makes sense, but I remember listening to several sales people explain to me that in-ceiling speakers are designed to work in an large, open space (open baffle or some other term?).

Here is what I think will make you happy Buy the Radio Shack SPL meter for $50. Then go to you normal listening position and set all of the speakers to the same dB level. It will do wonders for you sound perspective IMHO.

Here is the SPL link: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103667


Good luck!

MidCow2

 

[lsiberian]

I dont necessarily agree with this. Some 8ohm speakers can be very inefficient therefore they may need more power to get them to sing.

Other 8ohm speakers may take extremely low impedence dips (just because they are rated nominally at 8ohms does not mean thats where it stays) and would benefit from a powerful amp that is rated for a low impedence.

It all depends on the speaker in question. And in this case your right, these speakers really wont benefit THAT much with an amp. If your looking to "up" your experience check out a new receiver, or like others suggested check out some newer speakers. Also when you heard the demo at your dealer, was he using the same speakers that your using now? If not the demo was useless for you and would explain why you aren't hearing the same things. If it was the same equipment, then the room will play a HUGE roll in this. In most cases room treatments could easily fix this, but at this stage with the equipment you own i really think you would do yourself more justice by purchasing either a different receiver or new speakers that will give you what your looking for.

One last thing. Did you make sure and properly setup your receiver? like are you positively sure you have it setup correctly?

-Steve

You make a good point and it's why I wish they would post ohm ranges instead of just one number.

The other thing is that a higher quality AVR can have better processors which results in a better SQ. I know when I upgraded my receiver recently it made a noticeable difference in SQ.

 

[markw]

Just a thought...

You're running the NHTs off of a multi-channel AV receiver, aren't you?

Please tell me you're running them off of the "B" speaker terminals pair and not from one of the 5.1 speaker terminals.

I think many here can see where I'm going with this.

 

[Yammy Fan]

Yes, I have the NHTs hooked up correctly to the 2-channel speaker outputs on the back of my AVR. Oddly enough, the 5.1 zone is the "B" zone and the 2-channel outputs are designated the "A" zone on my display. This seemed to be the reverse of other AVRs I have seen in the past.

I will try the SPL meter idea soon.

What do you think about building enclosures for my in-ceilings?

 

[mtrycrafts]

..... so I was looking at what could possibly be the difference between his speakers and the same he heard in the dealer demo.
MidCow2

Well, the dealer certainly had a different room to hear the speakers in than he has at home. Room is right up there with the speakers affecting what you hear, not the amp in most cases.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...My 2nd room, where my in-ceiling speakers are located, is really the place where I would like to improve my sound. They are positioned 13' apart from one another in a rectangular room that is 38' * 14'. The speakers are in the center of the ceiling and the room, and with large circles already cut in my sheetrock, they are not easily placeable as suggested earlier.

Well, there is your problem. No wonder you don't like the reproduction in that room.

 

[markw]

I still think you're expecting too much from them.

My 2nd room, where my in-ceiling speakers are located, is really the place where I would like to improve my sound. They are positioned 13' apart from one another in a rectangular room that is 38' * 14'. The speakers are in the center of the ceiling and the room, and with large circles already cut in my sheetrock, they are not easily placeable as suggested earlier.
.
.
.
These are certainly not "background listening" speakers you would find at the dentist's office, they are made to ROCK.

That's a heckuva big room for those little speakers to fill and their placement DOES remind me of background music applications.

They may play loud, but sounding good in that room will be another manner entirely.

 

[Rickster71]

I'd have to agree with the two posts above.
A room that size would need at least four of those speakers to approach anything 'near' decent sounding.
If you expect more than decent sound in a room that size, you'd need six.