Noob needs help: Calibrating sub with speakers

S

smihalik

Audioholic
Maybe I have this all wrong. Do I need to be paying attention to my speakers frequency response when calibrating my sub? I'm thinking I do. In my case my Millenia 20's: ±2dB from 110 Hz - 20 kHz. Does this mean I need to set my sub to take over below 110 Hz? I've heard 80Hz is ideal for a sub? What if it were set to 80Hz? would I be missing out on frequencies between 80-110Hz? jeez the more I learn about this new "hobby" of mine the more questions I have. :)
 
phlakvest

phlakvest

Audioholic
How do you have your sub connected to your reciever?
Are you talking about setting the crossover on your reciever or the one on your sub?
A recievers crossover set at 80Hz takes the frequencies below that and sends them to the sub. But the frequencies above that get sent to the main speakers.
 
S

smihalik

Audioholic
How do you have your sub connected to your reciever?
Are you talking about setting the crossover on your reciever or the one on your sub?
A recievers crossover set at 80Hz takes the frequencies below that and sends them to the sub. But the frequencies above that get sent to the main speakers.
I don't actually have my sub yet...I'm trying to understand how I should be setting it up once I do receive it. 6-8 weeks arghhh.

See how little I know about this? I meant the crossover on the sub...but only because I didn't know my receiver has one! As you can see I need all the help I can get.
 
phlakvest

phlakvest

Audioholic
If the crossover on your sub has a off switch disable it. If not set it to its highest setting.

What speakers do you have? That will determine what to set the crossover to. Normally you would set it around 80Hz... but if your speakers don't go down to 80 Hz you want to set it higher.
 
S

smihalik

Audioholic
Guess you read over my first post too quickly. Paradigm Millenia 20's. They go down to 110Hz.
 
AVRat

AVRat

Audioholic Ninja
The Millenias actually have a -3db spec of 77/62. The Onkyo can set the speakers' xover independently, meaning they can be set at different levels. See pg 77 of the manual. You could try 80, 90, 100 to see which sounds best. You will then make sure the SVS sub is switched to disable its xover.
 
S

smihalik

Audioholic
The Millenias actually have a -3db spec of 77/62. The Onkyo can set the speakers' xover independently, meaning they can be set at different levels. See pg 77 of the manual. You could try 80, 90, 100 to see which sounds best. You will then make sure the SVS sub is switched to disable its xover.
Thanks for pointing this out. After looking closer at the specs your right. They play down to 77Hz.

Low Frequency Extension 77 Hz (DIN)
Frequency Response:
On-Axis ±2 dB from 110 Hz - 20 kHz
30° Off-Axis ±2 dB from 110 Hz - 18 kHz
Sensitivity - Room / Anechoic 92 dB / 89 dB
Suitable Amplifier Power Range 15 - 150 watts

If they go to 77hz, then what is the on-axis freq response? It shows as 110Hz - 20Hz. What does this mean. I thought a speakers freq response was the full range of frequencies the speaker can play. Why doesnt this read as 77Hz - 20kHz?
 
Midcow2

Midcow2

Banned
Uase AVR for crossover.

Turn you sub crossover off or set at highests setting (as Phlavest recommended). This will let your AVR ( Audio Video Receiver ) do the crossover.

Set your front speakers to "small". The "small" setting has nothing to do with the speaker size or capability. It tells your receiver that you have a subwoofer to handle the lower frequencies. You can try a 110 Hz, which means everything 110 hz and below will be sent to the sub. But as AVRat suggested I would try 80, 80 ,100, 110 to see which sounds best to you. The Millinenias do not stop producing sound below 110 hZ, this is just the lower end they apparently are recommending for optimum sound.

Okay ,you got me curious so I looked up the Paradigm Millinea 20s
http://www.paradigm.com/en/reference/speaker_only-specification-45-1-2-20.paradigm

Nice speaker , but you are correct they show 110 Hz as lower end of frequency range ( which seems a little high). So I would set crossover at 100 Hz, 110 Hz or 120 Hz most likely . Again, it is easy to change and you can experiment and find what sounds best to you.

Good luck!

MidCow2

P.S.- The SVS sub you are getting is awesome, you will like it ;)
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Maybe I have this all wrong. Do I need to be paying attention to my speakers frequency response when calibrating my sub? I'm thinking I do. In my case my Millenia 20's: ±2dB from 110 Hz - 20 kHz. Does this mean I need to set my sub to take over below 110 Hz? I've heard 80Hz is ideal for a sub? What if it were set to 80Hz? would I be missing out on frequencies between 80-110Hz? jeez the more I learn about this new "hobby" of mine the more questions I have. :)
Yes you do!

Your speaker system is an on wall system, and I think that is important, as it will need the wall to boost LF. It is sealed and so it will roll off second order. At 55 Hz it will be 12 db down. Now it says according to the DIN spec there is useful output at 77Hz, and that will be roughly the 6 db point.

Now I note that the Paradigm subwoofer designed to go with this woofer has a 60 Hz boost. This is probably to try and mask the frequency gap. They seem to be taking a leaf out of the Bose book here! What these speakers really need is a couple of forward firing subs set under each speaker with a second order crossover at around 100 Hz, with the speakers set to full, then the crossover splice should be nigh on perfect. The alternative would be a second order crossover to the Millenia at around 100Hz and fourth order crossover low pass on the sub. That would produce a nice splice to.

I think this system will require some experience and set up know how to get good results, and very likely require a Behringer crossover/equalizer to get decent results.

The reason for the two units under each speaker and using forward firing subs, is that the subs will have to operate in a zone where there will be localization to the sub.

Home theater seemed to like it, but there were no measurements, they used the sub designed to go with it.

So yes, if you use a standard sub set up, I don't think it will sound very good.
 
S

smihalik

Audioholic
Yes you do!

Your speaker system is an on wall system, and I think that is important, as it will need the wall to boost LF. It is sealed and so it will roll off second order. At 55 Hz it will be 12 db down. Now it says according to the DIN spec there is useful output at 77Hz, and that will be roughly the 6 db point.

Now I note that the Paradigm subwoofer designed to go with this woofer has a 60 Hz boost. This is probably to try and mask the frequency gap. They seem to be taking a leaf out of the Bose book here! What these speakers really need is a couple of forward firing subs set under each speaker with a second order crossover at around 100 Hz, with the speakers set to full, then the crossover splice should be nigh on perfect. The alternative would be a second order crossover to the Millenia at around 100Hz and fourth order crossover low pass on the sub. That would produce a nice splice to.

I think this system will require some experience and set up know how to get good results, and very likely require a Behringer crossover/equalizer to get decent results.

The reason for the two units under each speaker and using forward firing subs, is that the subs will have to operate in a zone where there will be localization to the sub.

Home theater seemed to like it, but there were no measurements, they used the sub designed to go with it.

So yes, if you use a standard sub set up, I don't think it will sound very good.
LOL, I just looked at your setup. No wonder you don't think it will sound good with a standard sub setup. You have a frigging movie theater/recording studio in your basement! I'm thinking your standards are quite a bit higher than mine. Thanks for the input. I cannot really do dual subs. I will be placing the one sub just left of the fronts though, almost underneath one of them. It is forward firing. I think setup like that, even if there is some slight localization of sound, it will not be noticeable. Can you explain to me about 2nd, 3rd and 4th order crosovers? I have no clue what you are talking about.:confused:
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
LOL, I just looked at your setup. No wonder you don't think it will sound good with a standard sub setup. You have a frigging movie theater/recording studio in your basement! I'm thinking your standards are quite a bit higher than mine. Thanks for the input. I cannot really do dual subs. I will be placing the one sub just left of the fronts though, almost underneath one of them. It is forward firing. I think setup like that, even if there is some slight localization of sound, it will not be noticeable. Can you explain to me about 2nd, 3rd and 4th order crosovers? I have no clue what you are talking about.:confused:
Actually, I graduated out of the basement with this system and have windows with great views!

I will try and welcome you with explanations as simple as I can make them.

People new to this hobby, often think that crossovers are like a brick wall. They are not, and at a crossover point there is a slope. A filter that lets through bass and not the higher frequencies is called a low pass filter. A filter that lets through higher frequencies and cuts out lower ones is called a high pass filter. A filter that cuts both high and lows at spaced points is called a band pass filter.

Now the rate of slope at the cut points, or turnover frequencies, have slopes that have orders. Loudspeakers and their drivers also have slopes. These are the acoustic slopes. The slopes introduced by the electronic components in the crossover are the electrical slopes. The acoustic slopes of the drivers and the crossover slopes sum to a composite slope.

Now these slopes have orders. A first order slope is one that rolls off by 6db per octave. So a first order slope at 100 Hz will be 6 db down at 50 Hz.

A second order slope rolls off at 12 db per octave and so would be 12 db down at 50 Hz.

A third order filter rolls off at 18 db per octave and would be 18 db down at 50 Hz.

A fourth order slope rolls off at 24 db per octave and would be 24 db down at 50 Hz.

Now the high and low pass sides of a crossover have to sum to produce a flat response over the overlap region. For second and fourth order slopes a flat amplitude response is produced if the slopes intersect at the point where both filters are 6 db down.

Take a look at the first graph in this crossover design, and you will get the idea. The slopes of the drivers and electrical slopes sum to make composite fourth order filters 6 db down were the slopes intersect.

Now with most sub set ups, the crossover is taking place where the ear is not unduly sensitive.

However in your case your main speakers are starting to roll off at 120 Hz. This is an area where the ear is very sensitive. This region between 90 and 150 Hz is were the brain perceives most of the bass. A system with a hole between 90 and 120 Hz will always sound bass deficient, and will not be entirely masked by driving a sub "hot".

Since your speakers are sealed, the acoustic slope will be 12 db per octave. I have worked out that the 6 db point of the your speakers to be 90 Hz.

So if you set your speakers to full range the 6 db point will be 90 Hz with a second order slope.

Now most crossovers in receivers and processors have second order slopes.

So if you set the receiver crossover to 90 Hz with your Milleniums playing full range you should get a very good amplitude response.

Now if you set your speakers to small, the acoustic and electrical slopes will sum to fourth order. The 6 db point will now be around 105 Hz. To make a flat amplitude response you would need to roll your sub off fourth order at 105 Hz to get a flat amplitude response across the crossover region.

Now without using an external electronic crossover between your LFE channel and sub you will not be able to avoid a peak at crossover, although it may sound reasonable if you set your speakers to small and your crossover to 100 Hz.

Although your speakers have 4.5" drivers, the power is distributed between four voice coils, so I think they could be set to large. I assume you are playing the speakers full range now. Do you notice any distress in them, and how bass shy do they seem? Answering those two questions would help me advise you further.

So I would first try setting you speakers to large (full range), and setting your receiver crossover to 90 Hz.

You could try setting your speakers to small and setting the receiver crossover to 100 Hz and see which sounds best.

When you get your sub, please post back here.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
I caution choosing the placement of the sub before actually doing a craw test. Even if you are limited to one wall. It still can make a big difference moving the sub just a few inches. Because you appear to be using a higher crossover than 80. It is likely your sub may tend towards boominess.

But lucky for you that sub comes with Auto eq and that system should take care of your sub. remember if your sub is at -5db or +5db in the setup you will need to adjust the gain on your subwoofer. You can run the eq again or if you have neighbors and find the eq to be annoying(be warned it is) Then you can always just adjust the sub little by little until the bass seems to be right.

Get it placed first though before you run the eq.

On a side note. I'm wondering if putting sound treatments on the wall behind a sub would improve the sound quality and reduce boominess. I am trying to prevent my sub's bass from bothering my neighbors. And my apartment has terrible walls. I still have plenty of gain left to go up.
 
S

smihalik

Audioholic
I caution choosing the placement of the sub before actually doing a craw test. Even if you are limited to one wall. It still can make a big difference moving the sub just a few inches. Because you appear to be using a higher crossover than 80. It is likely your sub may tend towards boominess.

But lucky for you that sub comes with Auto eq and that system should take care of your sub. remember if your sub is at -5db or +5db in the setup you will need to adjust the gain on your subwoofer. You can run the eq again or if you have neighbors and find the eq to be annoying(be warned it is) Then you can always just adjust the sub little by little until the bass seems to be right.

Get it placed first though before you run the eq.

On a side note. I'm wondering if putting sound treatments on the wall behind a sub would improve the sound quality and reduce boominess. I am trying to prevent my sub's bass from bothering my neighbors. And my apartment has terrible walls. I still have plenty of gain left to go up.
I'm not limited to this position. I will definitely be moving the sub around the room to find the best spot. I'm not sure about the sound treatments on the wall. I would think you would need to sound treat all the walls to get some, if any effect. I think if this could improve sound quality everyone would be doing it.
 
S

smihalik

Audioholic
After looking at the limitations of my speakers, do you guys think it would be a better idea for me to go with a different sub? Maybe the Seismic 10 or 12 which Paradigm recommends for use with my speakers? It is not too late for me to change my mind on my sub. I only have the SVS sub on "hold" and haven't put any money down.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
After looking at the limitations of my speakers, do you guys think it would be a better idea for me to go with a different sub? Maybe the Seismic 10 or 12 which Paradigm recommends for use with my speakers? It is not too late for me to change my mind on my sub. I only have the SVS sub on "hold" and haven't put any money down.
I think the big issue, is whether it will reproduce to 120 Hz at least and preferably a bit higher. You might ask SVS that. Normally we are not concerned about a subs ability to play that high, but in this case we are, due to the higher than normal roll off on your speakers.

If you end up with a dip in the 90 to 120 Hz region, it will sound bass deficient, sub or not.
 
S

smihalik

Audioholic
I think the big issue, is whether it will reproduce to 120 Hz at least and preferably a bit higher. You might ask SVS that. Normally we are not concerned about a subs ability to play that high, but in this case we are, due to the higher than normal roll off on your speakers.

If you end up with a dip in the 90 to 120 Hz region, it will sound bass deficient, sub or not.
I e-mailed SVS regarding the frequency response of the PB12, here is what they sent me. Let me know what you think.

"The Plus 12.4 is superbly linear well into the upper bass due to its low self-inductance and will have no problem at all with a high crossover. This same characteristic gives is fantastic slam and punch. Below is a ground-plane frequency response graph of the three tuning points:"

http://www.svsound.com/products/subs/newpb12plus/fr_pb12plus_1175.jpg
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I e-mailed SVS regarding the frequency response of the PB12, here is what they sent me. Let me know what you think.

"The Plus 12.4 is superbly linear well into the upper bass due to its low self-inductance and will have no problem at all with a high crossover. This same characteristic gives is fantastic slam and punch. Below is a ground-plane frequency response graph of the three tuning points:"

http://www.svsound.com/products/subs/newpb12plus/fr_pb12plus_1175.jpg
You will be just fine with that sub.
 

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