Please verify upscaling issue for me!

R

rbelden

Audiophyte
Like everyone else, we just purchased our first HD LCD. It's a Toshiba Regza 46". My 10+ yo Yamaha RX-V992 of course does not offer HDMI connections. I am using an HDMI (video use only) direct connection from our HD DirecTV receiver to the TV for video only which works great. Sound is via optical digital from DTV receiver to the Yamaha. I have a Sony 400 Disc DVD/CD player ES version which I really like (other than the totally stupid filing system but that's another story). From the DVD player I ran component video directly to the TV and analog audio to the receiver since it only has one optical input which I used for the DirecTV. I thought that coax digital wasn't any better than analog plus it was one less expensive cord to buy. My biggest issue is that my regular DVD's used to look great with S-Video directly to my old Sony WEGA TV. Now they look horrible due to their low resolution into the HD LCD. I have considered picking up an RX-V863 (only $600 new) which has upscaling capabilities so that we can continue to use our current DVD player with the wide screen LCD without it looking horrible. Now I am reading that most TV's already upscale to the limits of the original signal. If that is the case then purchasing the 863 will do nothing more than save me the trouble of switching inputs on the TV? What's the point of the upscaling receiver if most TV's already do that or am I off base in center field? Thanks in advance.
 
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
Like everyone else, we just purchased our first HD LCD. It's a Toshiba Regza 46". My 10+ yo Yamaha RX-V992 of course does not offer HDMI connections. I am using an HDMI (video use only) direct connection from our HD DirecTV receiver to the TV for video only which works great. Sound is via optical digital from DTV receiver to the Yamaha. I have a Sony 400 Disc DVD/CD player ES version which I really like (other than the totally stupid filing system but that's another story). From the DVD player I ran component video directly to the TV and analog audio to the receiver since it only has one optical input which I used for the DirecTV. I thought that coax digital wasn't any better than analog plus it was one less expensive cord to buy. My biggest issue is that my regular DVD's used to look great with S-Video directly to my old Sony WEGA TV. Now they look horrible due to their low resolution into the HD LCD. I have considered picking up an RX-V863 (only $600 new) which has upscaling capabilities so that we can continue to use our current DVD player with the wide screen LCD without it looking horrible. Now I am reading that most TV's already upscale to the limits of the original signal. If that is the case then purchasing the 863 will do nothing more than save me the trouble of switching inputs on the TV? What's the point of the upscaling receiver if most TV's already do that or am I off base in center field? Thanks in advance.
There shouldnt be an issue with component to the display. When you looks bad, how? Also coax digital is the same as optical and better for runs over 50'. Your receiver should decode dolby digital and dts which you are currently missing.
 
R

rbelden

Audiophyte
By bad I mean the the overall clarity was much better on the old CRT TV with the DVD's because there wasn't so much stretching to make it fit the larger LCD. The DVD's that are all digital such as Monsters Inc, Cars, etc..look very good but most other movies tend to lose clarity. I thought that by upscaling those 480i & 480p signals to 1080i or p that the LCD tv would be able to use them more efficiently. Maybe I don't have clue how this technology really works but I'm pretty sure that the higher the resolution, the better it should look. Maybe it's just that I'm getting used to the HD channels & movies. Again, I'm just very curious to know if running the old DVD player through a new upscaling receiver will improve the end product. Regarding the coax for audio, the old 992 is setup that you can only use optical or coax for one input only and since I'm already using the optical for the DTV signal I have no other digital inputs available for the DVD player.
 
S

Scarriere

Junior Audioholic
Wow Dude.
I got my 52" Regza last spring. And last summer, replaced my 992 with the 863. I read a couple of reviews on the RCVR's upscaling and most said to leave it off, so I have. It's kinda hard now for me to watch anything that isn't hi-def so upscaling isn't too much of a bigdeal. I let my PS3 do the upscaling on DVD's and it does this very well. There aren't too many DVD's on it anymore because of Blu Ray. The RCVR passes the video to the TV untouched via HDMI. DVD's are good, Blu ray is totally awesome. You could save some $ by going with the 663. And yeah, hi-def audio is the s*%t.
 
R

rbelden

Audiophyte
My logic is this, when I watch a standard DVD I know that the signal coming out of the DVD player is only 480i or 480p because the TV input displays what the signal coming in has to offer. Will the 863 take that and convert it to 1080i or p or is my LCD already doing that and it's as good as I'm gonna get from this legacy equipment. I've tried scouring the manual and reading tech bulletins but it does not mention anything. My goal here is to not buy a new DVD player until Sony comes out with an ES version of a 400 disc Blu Ray player. I can't tell you how convenient it is to turn on that player and have all of your dvd's and music cd's available with a push of a button.
 
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
480i is the resolution of sd dvds and your display will scale the image. The Yamaha isnt going to "clean" the image up and could make it worse. If your display doesnt cut it no "800" avr will. Please post your output settings for your gear. Also when going from crt to large lcd you will think that alot of things look bad.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Like everyone else, we just purchased our first HD LCD. It's a Toshiba Regza 46". My 10+ yo Yamaha RX-V992 of course does not offer HDMI connections. I am using an HDMI (video use only) direct connection from our HD DirecTV receiver to the TV for video only which works great. Sound is via optical digital from DTV receiver to the Yamaha. I have a Sony 400 Disc DVD/CD player ES version which I really like (other than the totally stupid filing system but that's another story). From the DVD player I ran component video directly to the TV and analog audio to the receiver since it only has one optical input which I used for the DirecTV. I thought that coax digital wasn't any better than analog plus it was one less expensive cord to buy. My biggest issue is that my regular DVD's used to look great with S-Video directly to my old Sony WEGA TV. Now they look horrible due to their low resolution into the HD LCD. I have considered picking up an RX-V863 (only $600 new) which has upscaling capabilities so that we can continue to use our current DVD player with the wide screen LCD without it looking horrible. Now I am reading that most TV's already upscale to the limits of the original signal. If that is the case then purchasing the 863 will do nothing more than save me the trouble of switching inputs on the TV? What's the point of the upscaling receiver if most TV's already do that or am I off base in center field? Thanks in advance.
As has already been stated by someone else, a coaxial digital connection is as good as an optical one, and it will be better than a two channel analog connection.

As for the picture, whenever you blow up a picture to a larger size, you will see more of its imperfections if you go beyond the limits of the resolution for the distance that you are sitting; see:

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/features/1137/maxing-out-resolution.html

Every TV that can accept a different format than its native display has a built in scaler. How good it is will vary from TV to TV. The same applies to scalers in receivers, DVD players, and separate scalers. A good scaler can make a significant difference compared with a low quality scaler, but even the best scaler will not make a low resolution source look like an HD source. I personally have an Oppo DV-983H, which might be the best upscaling DVD player ever made:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cd-dvd-player-product-reviews/dvd-players/oppo-digital-dv-983h-dvd-player---a-secrets-dvd-benchmark-review.html

But even with it, I never mistake even a well mastered DVD with true HD.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
By bad I mean the the overall clarity was much better on the old CRT TV with the DVD's because there wasn't so much stretching to make it fit the larger LCD. The DVD's that are all digital such as Monsters Inc, Cars, etc..look very good but most other movies tend to lose clarity. I thought that by upscaling those 480i & 480p signals to 1080i or p that the LCD tv would be able to use them more efficiently. Maybe I don't have clue how this technology really works but I'm pretty sure that the higher the resolution, the better it should look. Maybe it's just that I'm getting used to the HD channels & movies. Again, I'm just very curious to know if running the old DVD player through a new upscaling receiver will improve the end product. Regarding the coax for audio, the old 992 is setup that you can only use optical or coax for one input only and since I'm already using the optical for the DTV signal I have no other digital inputs available for the DVD player.
Some DVDs are anamorphic widescreen, and they have data that is thrown away when played back on a regular (NTSC) TV. That extra data can be used by an HDTV, so that there can be a significant difference between an anamorphic DVD and a non-anamorphic one when displayed on an HDTV. See:

http://www.theprojectorpros.com/learn-s-learn-p-theater_anamorphic_dvd.htm


As for upscaling, upscaling a picture does not magically add detail. A DVD source will never look as good as a true HD source, unless one views them both from far away (see chart at the link in my previous post in this thread).

As for whether the Yamaha will upscale better than your Toshiba, that is hard to say without knowing exactly what processing chips are in both, as well as knowing how well they are implemented. In practice, in the absence of reliable, professional reviews, one must simply try both and compare for oneself. However, if I were to hazard a guess, I would not expect that Yamaha to be better, or enough better to justify the cost, than the Toshiba REGZA that you have. That, of course, is just a guess, and could be wrong.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
My logic is this, when I watch a standard DVD I know that the signal coming out of the DVD player is only 480i or 480p because the TV input displays what the signal coming in has to offer. Will the 863 take that and convert it to 1080i or p or is my LCD already doing that and it's as good as I'm gonna get from this legacy equipment. I've tried scouring the manual and reading tech bulletins but it does not mention anything. My goal here is to not buy a new DVD player until Sony comes out with an ES version of a 400 disc Blu Ray player. I can't tell you how convenient it is to turn on that player and have all of your dvd's and music cd's available with a push of a button.
I have a few players that can upscale to 1080p but this $80 one http://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-XD-E500-Upconverting-Extended-Detail/dp/B001D9IWIY/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1232839478&sr=8-1 seems to be the best for regular DVDs. I bought it out of curiosity not that I need another one but I was nicely surpised. It can actually make some DVD titles look pretty close to hi-def quality.
 
R

rbelden

Audiophyte
I think you have confirmed what I feared all along...that my old trusty dvd player & yamaha receiver have gone the way of the dodo. However, I think I'll wait until someone comes out with an organized player such as the Sony 777ES before I leap to Blu-Ray. In the mean time I need to find a way to channel the digital sound from the DVD player into the receiver. The receiver only has one digitally switched input and DTV has that claimed since we watch more TV than DVD's.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
By bad I mean the the overall clarity was much better on the old CRT TV with the DVD's because there wasn't so much stretching to make it fit the larger LCD. The DVD's that are all digital such as Monsters Inc, Cars, etc..look very good but most other movies tend to lose clarity. I thought that by upscaling those 480i & 480p signals to 1080i or p that the LCD tv would be able to use them more efficiently. Maybe I don't have clue how this technology really works but I'm pretty sure that the higher the resolution, the better it should look. Maybe it's just that I'm getting used to the HD channels & movies. Again, I'm just very curious to know if running the old DVD player through a new upscaling receiver will improve the end product. Regarding the coax for audio, the old 992 is setup that you can only use optical or coax for one input only and since I'm already using the optical for the DTV signal I have no other digital inputs available for the DVD player.
You need to look at the manual for your receiver. According to it, you have three digital inputs (2 coaxial and 1 optical; one of the coaxial and the optical are labeled DVD/LD, the other coaxial is labeled TV/DBS). There is no way they intend only one digital input. Read your manual. If you lost your copy, download a new one at:

http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/productdetail.html?CNTID=200260&CTID=5000300&RLTID=1505&DETYP=RELATION

You will need to log in. If you are not registered, registration is free.
 
R

rbelden

Audiophyte
Indeed sir you are correct! I checked my manual and there are 2 Coax inputs. I think a trip to the store today for a coax cable is in order. Well this will at least keep all my sound digital until the DVD hardware I am looking for comes to market. I can't see spending $900+ dollars on an upscaler when someone will no doubt come out with a 400 disc blu-ray. I just hope that it will be from a reliable manuafacturer. Then comes the daunting task of deciding upon which new receiver will sit in the cabinet for another 10+ years until it too becomes obsolete, but that's another thread for another day. Thanks again for the advice from all. The $600 I was ready to spend for the yam 863 can now be put towards better use. One last question if you don't mind , the Sony 777ES has an internal setting that allows output at 4:3 or 16:9 for larger screens. Originally I used the 4:3 but then after purchasing the LCD I switched it. Could that be a source of the distortions?
 
Last edited:
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
Your dvd should be set to match your display. If you are watching 4:3 dvds dont stretch the image. There are only a couple of displays and FPs that can stretch images (or resize) and i wouldnt even then.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Indeed sir you are correct! I checked my manual and there are 2 Coax inputs. I think a trip to the store today for a coax cable is in order. Well this will at least keep all my sound digital until the DVD hardware I am looking for comes to market. I can't see spending $900+ dollars on an upscaler when someone will no doubt come out with a 400 disc blu-ray. I just hope that it will be from a reliable manuafacturer. Then comes the daunting task of deciding upon which new receiver will sit in the cabinet for another 10+ years until it too becomes obsolete, but that's another thread for another day. Thanks again for the advice from all. The $600 I was ready to spend for the yam 863 can now be put towards better use. One last question if you don't mind , the Sony 777ES has an internal setting that allows output at 4:3 or 16:9 for larger screens. Originally I used the 4:3 but then after purchasing the LCD I switched it. Could that be a source of the distortions?
What kind of distortions are you talking about? If it is stretched, then yes, that could be the cause, depending on how the Sony processes things. I have not read its manual, so I cannot say definitively. But if you mean "graininess" or lack of detail, then probably not.

When you get a Blu-Ray player, you might want to consider buying that Yamaha RX-V863 anyway. Your current equipment cannot decode all of the audio formats that are on Blu-Ray, but the Yamaha RX-V863 receiver can. Since I believe your current receiver lacks multichannel analog inputs, you cannot simply buy a Blu-Ray player that decodes everything and sends it out via multichannel analog. So you might want to hang onto that money you had reserved for a new receiver, rather than spending it on something else, as you are likely to want to buy a new receiver when you get a Blu-Ray player.

But, I recommend that you wait to buy a new receiver until you buy a Blu-Ray player, because they are always adding new things and making improvements, and if it is a while before you get a Blu-Ray player, Yamaha may have come out with something better by then for the same price.

For good value in receivers these days, I like Yamaha and Pioneer. Of course, it may be different next year, and it also depends upon the particular deals one encounters. But I have liked Yamaha in this for a long time, and have purchased Yamaha surround receivers for my last two units. (Before that, for my very first surround receiver, I had a Carver receiver, which was "DD ready", to which I later added a Sony DD processor, because I got a very good deal on it.)

One other thing: I have not looked at the manual for your receiver carefully enough to know, but with most of them these days, you can "reassign" a digital input for use with something else, so that you might be able to use all three of your digital inputs for different things. Certainly, though, you can use at least two of them for different things, and you could probably plug into all three even if you cannot "reassign" the inputs, and just have one of the input devices on at a time for the "DVD/LD" input. After all, you only will be listening to one thing at a time anyway.
 
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