where are you guys buying your subs?

F

fredk

Audioholic General
Whos ethics? The manufacturers for consipiring with its dealers to maintain the highest possible profits, or the customers for sourcing to find the lowest possible price?
 
adwilk

adwilk

Audioholic Ninja
Whos ethics? The manufacturers for consipiring with its dealers to maintain the highest possible profits, or the customers for sourcing to find the lowest possible price?
How about yours? Supporting "bad business' might be considered to be unethical by some... No matter who you are buying JL from online, they have acquired them "illegally". Or they are selling them in direct violation of the manufacturer. If they are willing to screw the manufacturer, what on earth makes you think they wouldnt take advantage of a customer.

The retail price is fine until the perceived value is ruined by the UNETHICAL practices of the online guys... sorry.. is what it is...
 
F

fredk

Audioholic General
My ethics are fine. They suit me perfectly. ;)

If you do not trust online sellers, thats fine. Do not assume that manufacturers automatically have the moral high ground. In my time in technology sales, I witnessed plenty of highly unethical bahavior all in the name of closing the deal.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Whos ethics? The manufacturers for consipiring with its dealers to maintain the highest possible profits, or the customers for sourcing to find the lowest possible price?
If you can prove that the manufacturer is engaged in price fixing or the dealers are engaged in price maintenance, go to the FTC about it. They're both illegal. There are limited ways around it, like Bose does, but generally, if an item is in high demand, the price will remain high.

If dealer removes the serial number, can you be sure it's not hot? If someone buys hot items, then their ethics come into question as well as the seller's. A consumer has every right to find the lowest price but if a manufacturer states clearly that removed serial numbers voids their warranty, it's their right. The fact that the surround has been lifted would make me void a warranty, too. Gray market goods have been a problem for manufacturers for a long time. Sony had a huge problem with Walkmans that were made for other markets coming into the US. They did the same thing- if it's not made for this market or has been altered in any way, the warranty is void. Look at what happened with M&K- Chinese knock-offs had a big impact on them.

If nobody wants to pay what a manufacturer wants to charge, there are only a few things that can happen legally- the manufacturer changes their prices, people stop buying them or the company makes them cheaper so they can make as much profit as they want. Altering product and trying to circumvent the warranty is what I was referring to on the supply side, and people buying what they know is gray, altered or illegal and then trying to get coverage if it goes south is just as bad. A buyer should get the best price but do it legally and don't try to get the company to cover altered goods.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
If you can prove that the manufacturer is engaged in price fixing or the dealers are engaged in price maintenance, go to the FTC about it. They're both illegal. There are limited ways around it, like Bose does, but generally, if an item is in high demand, the price will remain high.

If dealer removes the serial number, can you be sure it's not hot? If someone buys hot items, then their ethics come into question as well as the seller's. A consumer has every right to find the lowest price but if a manufacturer states clearly that removed serial numbers voids their warranty, it's their right. The fact that the surround has been lifted would make me void a warranty, too. Gray market goods have been a problem for manufacturers for a long time. Sony had a huge problem with Walkmans that were made for other markets coming into the US. They did the same thing- if it's not made for this market or has been altered in any way, the warranty is void. Look at what happened with M&K- Chinese knock-offs had a big impact on them.

If nobody wants to pay what a manufacturer wants to charge, there are only a few things that can happen legally- the manufacturer changes their prices, people stop buying them or the company makes them cheaper so they can make as much profit as they want. Altering product and trying to circumvent the warranty is what I was referring to on the supply side, and people buying what they know is gray, altered or illegal and then trying to get coverage if it goes south is just as bad. A buyer should get the best price but do it legally and don't try to get the company to cover altered goods.
There is no evidence that the drivers I have bought are illegally obtained. Very large online retailers like Sonic Electronix and Techronics super discount EVERYTHING. They must have some very massive and sophisticated fencing system to get all of this stolen stuff on the market in such a large and reliable manner.....

And price fixing may be technically illegal, but it is done regularly in effect. If you sell gear cheaper than the manufacturer's MAP, many large manufacturers will then simply cease to sell you future product, or not consider you an 'authorized' dealer, thus making your products have no factory warranty coverage.

-Chris
 
F

fredk

Audioholic General
there are only a few things that can happen legally
There is a saying that only two things in life are guaranteed, death and taxes. Neither of them are spelled 'legal'.

Years ago my father was foolish enough to think that because he was in the legal right the law would support him. The guy that put him into bankrupcy screwed a number of small contractors over a period of time.

Legal, moral and right are wonderful terms for discussions, but in the real world they need to be examined in context.

Many things that go on in business are colored in grey; not quite illegal, not quite ethical and only right if you are on the winning side of the deal.

Rather than wasting time on the ftc or whatever government agency, I would rather work within the system to purchase the goods I want at the price I find reasonable.
 
adwilk

adwilk

Audioholic Ninja
Ok, I get it, there are some benefits to being a savvy shopper, but I still contest that ordering products online isnt the way to go if you don't at least consider your product knowledge to be at the intermediate level. If you're not sure exactly what you're ordering and who you're ordering it from, you might be the majority that would benefit from buying it from a dealer. Here's my biggest problem and what opens a can of worms in my opinion.

Try to order a playstation 3 at half the retail price from anybody online... cant do it. Nor can you with numerous products out there. Try ordering a Garmin GPS unit or a Bowflex or an IPOD... or one of any other like branded products.. you just cant.


There are large levels of grey or black marketing that exists in certain industries like golf clubs, or speakers. You really do have to be careful of what you get and where you get it in "sounds too good to be true" situations.

Like I said in an earlier post... there are the anomalies and "one-offs" that really do know what they are doing. A lot of folks in this forum fall into that category. For the average "joe", its almost always better to get the product through the necessary means as the manufacturer sees it.

I have in no way implied that the manufacturer to end-user chain is without fault and that perhaps these companies have policies in place that ensure brand value and margins despite the lack of apparent value to the customer. It is ultimately about business.. i get that. But some of these online companies have found a way to get around those policies and are in direct violation of the manufactures agreements. Ignored or not...

I would bet my bank account that fake JL product exists. I would also bet that the means necessary to acquire product to sell at such a low price has potential consequence... at the end of the day, it only MIGHT be the customer. I'm not worried about most of the guys that are intelligent enough to use forums as a means necessary to educate themselves about products they have intentions of purchasing, but I do have some concern about the vast majority of the public that just blindly "hunt" for good deals and get screwed. IT HAPPENS. For those of us that continue to purchase from online resources, we promote these types of dealings (good or bad)to the point that its so saturated that it almost can't be policed. It would cost JL audio so much more money to try and stop the bootlegging than it would to just eat the loss of sales throughout their dealer networks.

To the OP, basically... if you have to ask......
 
Guiria

Guiria

Senior Audioholic
One argument that hasn't been brought up is that the manufacturer's price to a distributor is going to be the same regardless of who the distributor sells to. I wonder what the ratio of sales is from unauthorized JL 12W7's to authorized 12W7's. JL's sales of the specific driver are most likely considerably larger than they would be if there were no unauthorized sales channels.

When it comes down to it, JL Audio could close the doors of unauthorized sales if they really wanted to...but they don't.
 
adwilk

adwilk

Audioholic Ninja
One argument that hasn't been brought up is that the manufacturer's price to a distributor is going to be the same regardless of who the distributor sells to. I wonder what the ratio of sales is from unauthorized JL 12W7's to authorized 12W7's. JL's sales of the specific driver are most likely considerably larger than they would be if there were no unauthorized sales channels.

When it comes down to it, JL Audio could close the doors of unauthorized sales if they really wanted to...but they don't.
Considering that thats whats going on, thats a very good point.. its also a large number of sales that they will never have to guarantee... It is ultimately more money in their pocket...

Why wouldnt they "close the gap" so to speak though... charge more from the wholesale level so that online and dealers had at least a closer price to relieve some of the contention?

Now i'm more concerned what the margin is for the dealer...? any guesses? Could it be much more than say 35-40 percent?

An online dealer could easily drop the margin just for the fact of not having a storefront or presentable staff... curb appeal is expensive..

They certainly have the dealers a bit "strong-armed".. they have to carry the product...
 
R

randyb

Full Audioholic
I really have a hard time seeing that for the most part "protected" brands are not fixing price. From a practical standpoint, how is it that a manufacturer (or a US distributor) is not fixing prices if they yank your ability to sell because you don't abide by their price guidelines. It isn't like the manufacturer or US distributor is not getting their same price from the dealer. Why do they dictate the dealer's profit margin? I will guarantee you that if suddenly car dealers could only sell at MSRP, that there would be complaints and some FTC investigations. It is only because of the nature and smallness of the niche electronics market that no one takes an interest.

Now true international grey market goods do sometimes not go through the US distributor, and in that case the buyer must beware because you may have to go back to the actual manufacturer in another country to get any service (or none at all).
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
There is a saying that only two things in life are guaranteed, death and taxes. Neither of them are spelled 'legal'.

Years ago my father was foolish enough to think that because he was in the legal right the law would support him. The guy that put him into bankrupcy screwed a number of small contractors over a period of time.

Legal, moral and right are wonderful terms for discussions, but in the real world they need to be examined in context.

Many things that go on in business are colored in grey; not quite illegal, not quite ethical and only right if you are on the winning side of the deal.

Rather than wasting time on the ftc or whatever government agency, I would rather work within the system to purchase the goods I want at the price I find reasonable.
Sorry to read about the dirtbag that bankrupted your father. I worked for a boat dealership that was started by one person and when the market changed, he got a partner. After a third partner was added (a friend of the first partner but not the founder), I told the founder that he better watch his azz, or they'd squeeze him out and he was naiive enough to think they wouldn't. They did, but they also didn't know how to run a boat dealership or retail, for that matter. Joe sued and at the trial, we thought it was going in the direction of either having him returned to the company or at least being seen as the takeover having been illegal. It didn't. Personally, I think the judge was doing the defense attorney.

The guys who took over are weapons grade a-holes.

You're right- in business, many things are done until the person doing them is caught and then, they deal with the problem. However, if a direct duplicate is made by a third party and sells for less than the original, who is hurt? The manufacturer of the original- because they lost business and the customer- who may have a problem with it at some point and won't get coverage from the manufacturer. Enough Chinese knock-off amplifiers that showed M&K went bad that M&K's reputation was ruined. HiVi looks just like Dynaudio and I know you're aware of them.

Unauthorized manufacturing of someone else's design may make consumers happy when they "get a great deal" but it's still wrong. Unauthorized internet sales is a way to move a lot of goods, but it can still screw the consumer by stating that a warranty exists, even though the manufacturer explicitly states that if it's sold this way, the warranty is void.

One of the reasons a manufacturer will prohibit internet sales is to make it possible for their real dealers to make money by selling their products. When a wholesaler enters into an agreement to buy product for resale to retail dealers but also has a retail operation and sells for less than normal dealer cost, it undercuts all of the dealers who would normally be selling them. Since there's no reason to sell for less than cost, it eliminates competition, which is definitely illegal.

I'm pretty sure that if you were in the position of being a manufacturer who spent a good amount of money to develop a product that people want, you wouldn't be too hap, hap, happy when someone comes along and sold something with your label for much less, yet said it was really made by you. If this is actually happening, the people making and selling the knockoffs should be stopped, IMO. YMMV
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
And price fixing may be technically illegal, but it is done regularly in effect. If you sell gear cheaper than the manufacturer's MAP, many large manufacturers will then simply cease to sell you future product, or not consider you an 'authorized' dealer, thus making your products have no factory warranty coverage.

-Chris
Chris, that is slightly incorrect. A reseller cannot advertise for less than MAP. They can sell for what they wish, however, if enough resellers complain, they may get cut off from the manufacturer. If said retailer is moving a LOT of product sometimes the problem is ignored.

That is not the case with JL Audio though. They have cut off multi-million dollar accounts because of transhipping.
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
Considering that thats whats going on, thats a very good point.. its also a large number of sales that they will never have to guarantee... It is ultimately more money in their pocket...

What is at stake is a company/brand's integrity, ethics & loyalty to those that got them there.

JL realizes that the people who made them great are the specialty retailers. They will not turn their back on them like so many others have. JL also wants professional representation of their product from an installation & sales angle. Like it or not, they will continue to protect the retailer as they respect them as much as the retailers respect JL for their efforts.

JL is very much different from the rest of the industry. Different ideas, different practices, great products. They will continue to be a solid company because they have built value & loyalty in their brand. They make great performing reliable products that get recognized as being industry leaders. Consumers like that & will always be drawn to it.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
JL, if they really refuse to even service a sub for pay, that was bought from a non-authorized dealer; that would really make them a true a-hole if you ask me..... it's already bad enough that they refuse to stand behind their own products because you did not pay the conspired wallet-rape prices that an 'authorized' dealer is FORCED to charge by JL.

But, as you said, the chances seem pretty minimal that you will have a failure.

-Chris
JL most likely wants to avoid their name being tarnished by a disreputable shop. They may view themselves as a company that make an uncompromising product and feel that they should price and distribute it accordingly.

They are most likely of the mind: If you don't like the price, you can buy another vendors product. I don't know if that makes good business sense or not, but it is their business to run however they see fit. If the market decides that JL is a dinosaur then JL will suffer the consequence.

Reminds me of the champagne maker Cristal and the hip hop/rapper community.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Whos ethics? The manufacturers for consipiring with its dealers to maintain the highest possible profits, or the customers for sourcing to find the lowest possible price?
You don't have to buy the JL sub. There is more than enough quality manufacturers out there. If JL happens to make THE sub of subs, well then you have simply a problem of supply and demand. You have the demand($$) they have the supply(the 'gotta have it' sub). It's not like they are a telco or power company.
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
You don't have to buy the JL sub. There is more than enough quality manufacturers out there. If JL happens to make THE sub of subs, well then you have simply a problem of supply and demand. You have the demand($$) they have the supply(the 'gotta have it' sub). It's not like they are a telco or power company.
The W7, released in 2000 or 2001, is still considered one of the best subs on the market in many categories. One of their slogans states "ahead of the curve". It does not seem to simply be a slogan but how the company runs.

There are woofers on the market now that meet or exceed it's performance envelope, some by a good margin (TC sounds LMS/LMT woofers). However these products did not hit the market until a couple of years ago. To me it is impressive for a company to set a standard(s) that others take years to figure out how to beat.

The replacement for the W7 will surely set the bar higher (when it is ever released).
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
The W7, released in 2000 or 2001, is still considered one of the best subs on the market in many categories. One of their slogans states "ahead of the curve". It does not seem to simply be a slogan but how the company runs.

There are woofers on the market now that meet or exceed it's performance envelope, some by a good margin (TC sounds LMS/LMT woofers). However these products did not hit the market until a couple of years ago. To me it is impressive for a company to set a standard(s) that others take years to figure out how to beat.

The replacement for the W7 will surely set the bar higher (when it is ever released).
And there is something wrong with a high value premium because of what?
 
F

fredk

Audioholic General
You don't have to buy the JL sub
And I probably won't. Just pointing out that neither side has the moral high or low ground. A free market is just that. Free.

I also have no objection to JL charging whatever premium they do for their drivers. See above comment on free markets.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
You don't have to buy the JL sub. There is more than enough quality manufacturers out there. If JL happens to make THE sub of subs, well then you have simply a problem of supply and demand. You have the demand($$) they have the supply(the 'gotta have it' sub). It's not like they are a telco or power company.
And yet... there is not even the high price to stop one from buying JL.. as you can buy them cheaply very easily..... :D

-Chris
 

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