Pro Amplifier recommendations

[WmAx]

I would stray away from the Behringer amplifiers, they are okay for messing around with stuff but in the club scene they have been completely abandoned because while they make big numbers for cheap, they don't last, travel bad (this isn't an issue for home use), and the support is horrible. In addition to that, we have had threads here about Monsters business practices, well, Behringer's products are all stolen designs from other companies (the amps are ...poor... QSC knockoffs, the monitors are Genelec knockoffs, and so on).

I would go with QSC, Crown or Crest. American companies (we need the business) and they make great amplifiers and stand behind their product. You'll pay a bit more for the numbers, but still a lot less than in consumer audio.

While some of their products have some problems due to soldering QC or other limited similar problems that can be made to appear with moving the items and subjecting them to shock sometimes, even this is not established by a valid unbiased poll or statistical data that I know of .... just a few people with common complaints. BTW, since Behringer sells SO MUCH MORE volume than most, they MUST have MORE complaints - it's basic math to a point.

Calling the Ep2500 a poor copy is ignorant. It's not even a 'direct' copy - though it uses the same circuit schematic essentially. But keep in mind, the QSC is nothing exactly innovative in itself, nor any other product. Basic, pre-existing circuits. What exactly is 'stolen' beyond using the same pre-existing circuits that QSC used, that QSC did not invent? The EP2500 uses identical quality parts as the QSC 'original', FWIW. It even copies the mil-spec redundant circuit board to prevent solder joint failure in most cases - since each component is soldered twice, once to two boards, for redundancy.

Many of Behringers products use high quality parts that are not expected to be found in the price range - and some of their products are not good at all - and some lie in the middle. I only recommend products from them that are excellent. The Ep2500 is clearly a high quality amplifier and it's performance is top notch - measured/verified by credible 3rd parties.

I believe Behringer themselves admitted a few years ago to having severe QC problems - when they were outsourcing manufacturing. This harmed their perceived image quite a bit, I'm sure. But in the last few recent years, they have their own facility, and supposedly improved QC as a result.

Now, while I don't use the products in a professional manner, I have had a lot of Behringer products, around 14 to 16 in total, I suppose, over a few years. I will note that I have only had products since they opened their own factory - I have never owned a product from the prior era. One product has failed - a microphone. I use many of the products often, and one, I leave on 24/7, and has been on for about 3 or 4 years: a UB1202 mixer I use for audio routing on my computer audio system. Anecdotal? Yes. Just like the claims made that Behringer is junk. Claims that which I just stated can be based on the prior era of outsourcing and the fact that they sell such huge volume, that by basic statisics, they MUST have many more TOTAL failures that can easily skew any polls ever attempted to be held on a forum - further re-enforcing the image that they are 'junk', regardless if it is true or not.

Also, I have seen plenty of anecdotal posts on newsgroups of pro-audio rental houses; some using lots of Behringer gear for rental - reporting having no more problems with Behringer than any other 'name brand' they rent.

Let me make it clear: I'm not saying Behringer has the QC or quality of a high end exotic that is hand assembled and QC checked for hours under actual operation in the factory before it's distributed. But it does, overall, seem to be good medium quality pro-gear(which is much better than most all home gear by a long shot).

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

This is my first post.
My question is?

It is better to take the behringer ep 1500 or yamaha P2500S, both have the same quality? The price is not important.
Ciao from Italy
Massimo

Ep2500 has higher performance/power; it can drive more difficult loads.

Price is actually the same for both, approximately, if you shop around for best deal, at least it is that way in the USA.

-Chris

 

[keres]

Thank you WmAx
I have this preamp Mingda-Meixing MC - 2A3 ,
there may be problems with interfacing with the Behringer ep2500?

I do'nt need great power that I think the behringer ep 1500 matches.

Thank you

 

[Soundman]

Simple actually - consumer gear used RCA plugs and jacks. Pro gear uses XLR plugs and jacks. The CleanBox by Art has RCA inputs and XLR inputs on one side(INPUT SIDE) and RCA outputs and XLR outputs on the other side(OUTPUT SIDE). You would use RCA patch cable to connect your consumer pre-out to the INPUT SIDE of the CleanBox. Then use XLR patch cables on the OUTPUT side of the CleanBox to feed to the amp XLR inputs.

If you have an Emotiva pre-amp, it may have XLR outputs and not need any such conversion box. Look on the back for XLR-Balanced outputs.

Here is an example image with both input and output XLR jacks:

-Chris

Thanks for the pointers. Unfortunately, it appears that the LMC-1 does not have XLR outputs. However, this is an older model. Not sure if any of the new processors have this or not.

 

[Soundman]

Ep2500 has higher performance/power; it can drive more difficult loads.

Price is actually the same for both, approximately, if you shop around for best deal, at least it is that way in the USA.

-Chris

BTW, Do you know what the 8 ohm power rating is on this amp? I don't see it listed in the tech specs and I've looked around a bit. http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/Behringer-EUROPOWER-EP1500-Power-Amp?sku=480696

 

[Soundman]

BTW, Do you know what the 8 ohm power rating is on this amp? I don't see it listed in the tech specs and I've looked around a bit. http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/Behringer-EUROPOWER-EP1500-Power-Amp?sku=480696

...or any of the Bahringer amps. I don't see an 8 ohm power rating an any of them and I'm trying to compare to other similar products. I have 8 ohm speakers so this is what really matters.

 

[WmAx]

BTW, Do you know what the 8 ohm power rating is on this amp? I don't see it listed in the tech specs and I've looked around a bit. http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/Behringer-EUROPOWER-EP1500-Power-Amp?sku=480696

I do not recommend the EP1500. For the same price you can get the EP2500. The EP2500 outputs 450 watts x 2 into 8 ohms, both channels driven. It has a -108 dB SNR. At maximum power of 450 into 8 ohms, it produces about 0.02% THD on average. The EP2500 and Ep1500 are actually quite similar. The Ep2500 is basically the same amp, with a much larger power supply, more output transistors and a secondary rail voltage that auto engages under high demand; allowing the Ep2500 to produce far higher output power.

-Chris

 

[Soundman]

I do not recommend the EP1500. For the same price you can get the EP2500. The EP2500 outputs 450 watts x 2 into 8 ohms, both channels driven. It has a -108 dB SNR. At maximum power of 450 into 8 ohms, it produces about 0.02% THD on average. The EP2500 and Ep1500 are actually quite similar. The Ep2500 is basically the same amp, with a much larger power supply, more output transistors and a secondary rail voltage that auto engages under high demand; allowing the Ep2500 to produce far higher output power.

-Chris

Thanks Chris for the info. But wouldn't one of these be a better deal, then (2) EP2500's. http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product?sku=480827V It seems like there's some good deals on these Yamaha's right now. What do you think?

 

[jamie2112]

Thanks Chris for the info. But wouldn't one of these be a better deal, then (2) EP2500's. http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product?sku=480827V It seems like there's some good deals on these Yamaha's right now. What do you think?

That is a great deal for sure, I myself would buy the Yamaha.

 

[WmAx]

Thanks Chris for the info. But wouldn't one of these be a better deal, then (2) EP2500's. http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product?sku=480827V It seems like there's some good deals on these Yamaha's right now. What do you think?

Well, for most ported applications, it will be perfect, at nearly 1kw per channel, both channels driven, into 4 Ohms. If you, however, planned to go with in the future sealed JL W7 12" or 13, or Sound Splinter or Audio Pulse premium subs, the Ep2500 amps would be better(one bridged for each channel) due to the power needed to EQ sealed boxes flat.

-Chris

 

[Soundman]

Well, for most ported applications, it will be perfect, at nearly 1kw per channel, both channels driven, into 4 Ohms. If you, however, planned to go with in the future sealed JL W7 12" or 13, or Sound Splinter or Audio Pulse premium subs, the Ep2500 amps would be better(one bridged for each channel) due to the power needed to EQ sealed boxes flat.

-Chris

So, basically if I don't plan on ever using the amp for use with a sub, the Yammy would be fine. Right? I do plan on using whatever I end up getting to power my front speakers, which are a ported design. Even my center channel is ported, so it looks like it would work pretty well.

 

[MidnightSensi]

While some of their products have some problems due to soldering QC or other limited similar problems that can be made to appear with moving the items and subjecting them to shock sometimes, even this is not established by a valid unbiased poll or statistical data that I know of .... just a few people with common complaints. BTW, since Behringer sells SO MUCH MORE volume than most, they MUST have MORE complaints - it's basic math to a point.

I rarely see the stuff used professionally anymore. There was a bump in their use because of the low cost, but just about anyone who has to make money by having a reliable setup has moved away from them, and they were never popular for install systems for that reason.

Calling the Ep2500 a poor copy is ignorant. It's not even a 'direct' copy - though it uses the same circuit schematic essentially. But keep in mind, the QSC is nothing exactly innovative in itself, nor any other product. Basic, pre-existing circuits. What exactly is 'stolen' beyond using the same pre-existing circuits that QSC used, that QSC did not invent? The EP2500 uses identical quality parts as the QSC 'original', FWIW. It even copies the mil-spec redundant circuit board to prevent solder joint failure in most cases - since each component is soldered twice, once to two boards, for redundancy.

Pft. They don't even have reservations about their products being knock-offs, before they started getting sued they actually were proud of it and talked about it.


Look at the Genelec classic monitors versus their Truth monitors, that's absolutely rediculous.



I'm not saying Behringer can't be used or wouldn't be okay for an inexpensive amp, but if we are going to pick on Monster Cable for their business practices (sueing people to own the word Monster) then lets not go a few threads over and recommend Behringer (who knocks off other peoples designs and even designs the stuff so it looks similar to what they knock off).

The Ep2500 is clearly a high quality amplifier and it's performance is top notch - measured/verified by credible 3rd parties.

It's performance is not top notch in the experiance of most musicians, and if by 3rd party you mean these hobbiests they think they know what they are talking about on the Internet trying to get rep points, that's not credible 3rd parties. And making numbers is one thing, but actually making them over time and getting used as a professional amp is another.

I believe Behringer themselves admitted a few years ago to having severe QC problems - when they were outsourcing manufacturing. This harmed their perceived image quite a bit, I'm sure. But in the last few recent years, they have their own facility, and supposedly improved QC as a result.

I hope so, the only product Behringer I still have is a crossover. Everything else has blown up....

Now, while I don't use the products in a professional manner, I have had a lot of Behringer products, around 14 to 16 in total, I suppose, over a few years. I will note that I have only had products since they opened their own factory - I have never owned a product from the prior era. One product has failed - a microphone. I use many of the products often, and one, I leave on 24/7, and has been on for about 3 or 4 years: a UB1202 mixer I use for audio routing on my computer audio system. Anecdotal? Yes. Just like the claims made that Behringer is junk. Claims that which I just stated can be based on the prior era of outsourcing and the fact that they sell such huge volume, that by basic statisics, they MUST have many more TOTAL failures that can easily skew any polls ever attempted to be held on a forum - further re-enforcing the image that they are 'junk', regardless if it is true or not.

Also, I have seen plenty of anecdotal posts on newsgroups of pro-audio rental houses; some using lots of Behringer gear for rental - reporting having no more problems with Behringer than any other 'name brand' they rent.

Let me make it clear: I'm not saying Behringer has the QC or quality of a high end exotic that is hand assembled and QC checked for hours under actual operation in the factory before it's distributed. But it does, overall, seem to be good medium quality pro-gear(which is much better than most all home gear by a long shot).

-Chris

Maybe thats the difference, home use isn't nearly as abusive as running a PA rig or install sound. I don't do mobil gigs anymore, and don't know what those guys use now. Installed pro-sound generally has nothing Behringer anymore (at least not in the places I've seen). The truth is no matter what he goes with he'll probably be okay in his application.

 

[Soundman]

Hey Chris,
I was over on the AV123 website trying to get some ideas from other RS850 users. Well, I found a pro-gear basher. I was just wondering what your thoughts are on these comments. I do want alot of amplification, but not at the expense of lower sound quality:

Not all equipment sounds the same. Of course sound is subjective, so others will hear/value different things. Personally I have never been thrilled ny pro-equipment unless you are using it to power something like a sub.

Here's an interesting review on a pro-audio piece ( http://www.stereomojo.com/QSC 1804...FIERREVIEW.htm ). I would never say take any one person or publications opinions as gospel, but it is interesting reviewing others thoughts.

 

[tcarcio]

I run my whole 7.2 system with pro amps. My mains,center and surrounds are powered by Crown amps and my subs with a behringer and I don't think I will ever go back to useing just an avr. I love the sound and the headroom is unlimited as I cannot even stay in the room if I crank it up too loud. I use my Pioneer Elite for a pre-amp. Most of the people who dis on pro gear for home use are the same people who think you need speaker cables that are 1000 bucks a meter......

 

[WmAx]

Hey Chris,
I was over on the AV123 website trying to get some ideas from other RS850 users. Well, I found a pro-gear basher. I was just wondering what your thoughts are on these comments. I do want alot of amplification, but not at the expense of lower sound quality:

I have the highest standards in audio quality. I am fanatical. I have dedicated thousands of hours to the study and experimentation of loudspeaker design as it related to human perception. I use pro amps in both my main 2 channel system and my computer sound monitor system. Keep in mind, I used to use McIntosh amplifiers in my main system along with various other audiophile hardware. Today, Yamaha pro amps adorn my main stereo, and a couple of Crowns and a Behringer are on my computer monitor sound system. The only thing these amps do is amplify the signal. No distortion. No noise, etc.. Keep in mind you do have to change out the fan in some of them to a quiet model. Now, 10 years ago or more, it was not all that uncommon for pro amps to have a rather mediocre noise floor. Today's good examples are superb in every aspect, including the noise floor.

People claiming some kind of coloration from modern high quality pro amps are imagining things; it's common for people to listen to something without any bias controls, thus resulting in a skewed perspective dominated by psychological reasons, not ones due to actual audible phenomena. I have no reason to waste me time concerning things that are just all in the head; others have no choice - as they are too lazy, mentally, to realize that they approached the subject with a highly flawed method/perspective in the first place. You can thank sites like Audio Asylum, Head-Fi.org and magazines like Stereophile for helping to continue this tradition of this audio foolery.

BTW, I would be surprised if even 2% of the audiophiles that have 20K dollars or more invested in their fancy 2 channel system have a system that can even come close to matching(much less actually match or exceed) my meager computer monitor speaker system in fidelity/sound quality...... This is my secondary system. I make this statement from an objective basis of measured performance vs. the common products chosen/used by audiophiles above this price range. Yet, I chose to use 'crappy' pro amps. Because they are transparent, at least the ones I chose fit this description. They have lots of power. They are priced at a point that I like. I would much rather have lots of dynamic headroom which is actually useful sometimes as compared to a pointless pretty looking faceplate and far lower actual power/capability. My computer monitor system was designed as an extreme neutral playback monitor system and it features extraordinary linearity and an incredibly low level of colorations/resonances matched by very few at any price. Of course, the environment is fully acoustically treated.

-Chris

 

[jamie2112]

Chris you are a fanatic for sure buddy. I say that with the highest respect as I am amazed at the stuff I learn from your posts. I have been doing pro audio since 85 and I learn something new everyday here.

 

[Soundman]

I have the highest standards in audio quality. I am fanatical. I have dedicated thousands of hours to the study and experimentation of loudspeaker design as it related to human perception. I use pro amps in both my main 2 channel system and my computer sound monitor system. Keep in mind, I used to use McIntosh amplifiers in my main system along with various other audiophile hardware. Today, Yamaha pro amps adorn my main stereo, and a couple of Crowns and a Behringer are on my computer monitor sound system. The only thing these amps do is amplify the signal. No distortion. No noise, etc.. Keep in mind you do have to change out the fan in some of them to a quiet model. Now, 10 years ago or more, it was not all that uncommon for pro amps to have a rather mediocre noise floor. Today's good examples are superb in every aspect, including the noise floor.

People claiming some kind of coloration from modern high quality pro amps are imagining things; it's common for people to listen to something without any bias controls, thus resulting in a skewed perspective dominated by psychological reasons, not ones due to actual audible phenomena. I have no reason to waste me time concerning things that are just all in the head; others have no choice - as they are too lazy, mentally, to realize that they approached the subject with a highly flawed method/perspective in the first place. You can thank sites like Audio Asylum, Head-Fi.org and magazines like Stereophile for helping to continue this tradition of this audio foolery.

BTW, I would be surprised if even 2% of the audiophiles that have 20K dollars or more invested in their fancy 2 channel system have a system that can even come close to matching(much less actually match or exceed) my meager computer monitor speaker system in fidelity/sound quality...... This is my secondary system. I make this statement from an objective basis of measured performance vs. the common products chosen/used by audiophiles above this price range. Yet, I chose to use 'crappy' pro amps. Because they are transparent, at least the ones I chose fit this description. They have lots of power. They are priced at a point that I like. I would much rather have lots of dynamic headroom which is actually useful sometimes as compared to a pointless pretty looking faceplate and far lower actual power/capability. My computer monitor system was designed as an extreme neutral playback monitor system and it features extraordinary linearity and an incredibly low level of colorations/resonances matched by very few at any price. Of course, the environment is fully acoustically treated.

-Chris

Good answer, Chris. Well, like everyone seems to be saying, it sounds like you really know your stuff. Well, then this Rocket setup is my main listening area, and once I have the dedicated theater room setup, I will definitely want to add some amplification. So, would you recommend going with some Yamaha's or Crown's...something like that? Looking at price and performance, what woul'd you recommend? I'm looking for 500wpc or more.

 

[WmAx]

Good answer, Chris. Well, like everyone seems to be saying, it sounds like you really know your stuff. Well, then this Rocket setup is my main listening area, and once I have the dedicated theater room setup, I will definitely want to add some amplification. So, would you recommend going with some Yamaha's or Crown's...something like that? Looking at price and performance, what woul'd you recommend? I'm looking for 500wpc or more.

If you don't mind swapping the fan, the Behringer Ep2500 is perfect for you. If you don't want to open it up and bother with the $8 plus shipping fan exchange then Yamaha P5000S will output 500 x 2 into 8 Ohm, both channels driven and has no fan noise. As a benefit, it's rack mount ears come off if you don't like those to be present. The Yamaha will also have a longer/better warranty. Do keep in mind the Yamaha is not 4 Ohm stable bridged, and not 2 ohm stable stereo. It is 4 Ohm stable stereo. Output into 4 Ohms, both channels driven, is about 700 watts, 20Hz-20,000Hz. On the downside.... the Yamaha is nearly 2x the cost of the Behringer EP2500....

As for Crown, since you mention them, I don't recommend them for value. You do not get anywhere near the build quality that you get from the Behringer gear dollar for dollar. Not even close. I do use some Crowns .... but I found out this information the hard way... by buying them. LOL. They work fine - never had a problem. Just, they do not have the beefy well designed and executed robust build of the Behringers. The nice Crowns are not a good value. I only recommend some specific Crows, for example, if they happen to fit the budget and precise power range the user is looking for. Say for example the user wants an inexpensive high quality 200 watt x 2 into 8 ohm, 300 watt into 4 Ohm, stereo amplifier? The Crown XLS202D can be found for good prices and it is a great amp for this specific set of requirements. If the user will pay 300-350 though, I recommend the Yamaha P2500S instead of the Crown, for this approx. 200 watt range. I have had people want only 200-250 watts and thought that the extra power an EP2500 produces is too much and they specifically DO NOT want that much power, and have a tight budget. You can get the XLS202D for about 200-230 shipped range from a reputable online retailer if you do a price match request against a super discount retailer. I recommend zzounds.com as the actual retailer to buy from and get to price match. They offer superb customer service - above and beyond IME.

-Chris

 

[jliedeka]

Does anyone have any experience with the QSC amps? I was looking at the GX-3 and GX-5 on Parts Express. The 3 is class B and the 5 is class H. One thing that appeals to me is they have RCA inputs along with balanced XLRs.

Jim

 

[MidnightSensi]

Does anyone have any experience with the QSC amps? I was looking at the GX-3 and GX-5 on Parts Express. The 3 is class B and the 5 is class H. One thing that appeals to me is they have RCA inputs along with balanced XLRs.

Jim

Those are musician amps, which is fine, but I believe those are 1/4" TRS connectors not RCAs on the back. Double check, but, I'm pretty sure.