Need Advice for Stereo Setup - Please Help

[tyman71491]

As of right now, I have two B&W DM 602 S3 speakers, and an ASW600 sub. The specs are here:

DM 602 S3

I am looking right now to upgrade to the Klipsch RB-81's (I want louder) which are here:

RB-81's

I would be getting the RB-81's for about half price, and if I sold the B&W's, it would be an equal trade of money.

My main question is about the amplifiers. I am not an expert whatsoever, but I would like to spend somewhere below $400, the lower the better. Right now I am looking at either getting two Amp-100's from AudioSource and bridge them to power each speaker at 150W or getting one Amp-300 to power each speaker at 150W on each channel. Which idea should I do?

If I have a Denon receiver now, would it be better to buy a Preamp and not use the receiver or what? Remember, I do have a sub with this setup.

ANY help is appreciated. I really have no place to go for help because all the places around me have components that are way out of my price range.

 

[markw]

It's always better to run an amp in it's native (NOT bridged) mode. It puts less strain on the amps.

If your Denon has preamp outputs, you can run these to an external power amp.

I just hope you realize that louder isn't necessarially an upgrade. It's just louder.

 

[Highbar]

I'm going to start by asking what you are powering the B&W's with? You are talking about adding an amp to the Klipsch why not add one to the 602's? I'm a much bigger fan of B&W than Klipsch, but that aside the Klipsch are more efficient at 97db verse the 90db of the B&W and will be louder with the same amp. Is volume all you are looking to increase? If so than adding an amp to the current setup could help just as much.

 

[tyman71491]

k

I am using a Denon AVR-883 to power the 602's. It does 80W per channel, and the speakers are rated to go up to 120W.

I guess my main problem was trying to figure out the power ratings. AudioSource makes three models of their amplifier that I could possibly use.

The Amp-300 which does 150W per channel, the Amp-200 which does 80W per channel, and the Amp-100 which does 150W bridged.

Would it be alright for the B&W's to be powered at 150W with the Amp-300 even though they aren't rated to handle that much power? I am pretty much scared that I will blow something up, and that's why I wanted the Klipsch speakers cause they are efficient and I don't really have to worry about that. If I could power the B&W's to be louder, I would love to keep them as I do know they will sound better than the Klipsch's.

 

[Highbar]

You shouldn't hurt the B&W's by driving them with 150w. For most listening they probably wont use more than 20 or 30 watts any way. Heck if you buy the 300 and don't like the sound than you can still buy the Klipsch and you haven't changed your original plan. I would try it with the 602's first though.

 

[tyman71491]

You shouldn't hurt the B&W's by driving them with 150w. For most listening they probably wont use more than 20 or 30 watts any way. Heck if you buy the 300 and don't like the sound than you can still buy the Klipsch and you haven't changed your original plan. I would try it with the 602's first though.

Since you are saying the speakers are usually only driven with 20 or 30 watts, then are the extra watts in the amp going to do anything?

I am a still a teenager, so I love the loud music. I have provided the speakers for one party, the 602's, and with my receiver at 80W they were not loud enough. Will I get a noticeable difference in volume if I get the Amp-300?

 

[skizzerflake]

Since you are saying the speakers are usually only driven with 20 or 30 watts, then are the extra watts in the amp going to do anything?

I am a still a teenager, so I love the loud music. I have provided the speakers for one party, the 602's, and with my receiver at 80W they were not loud enough. Will I get a noticeable difference in volume if I get the Amp-300?

Most of the time speakers, even when fairly loud, hum along on a few watts; peak loudnesses are what causes power to spike. The problem is that linear increases in loudness require exponential increases in amp power. If 10 watts were to run your speakers up to 85 decibels, you would need 20 watts to get about 88 db (only slightly louder), 100 watts to get to 95 db but 1000 watts to get to 105 db. This means that small increases in power (like going from 50 to 100) doesn't make a system much louder. You will need to figure out just how loud you want to be and realize that each 10 db will require 10 times as much power. That's why performing bands have big racks of heavy amps.

 

[Seth=L]

I would advise against the audiosource amplifier and go with a Behringer A500. The Behringer is build much better and benchtests really well.

I would also advise against Klipsch if accuracy is of any concern. If loudness is the only concern I would advise taking a different route (Cerwin Vega). But if you want loud and accurate you could just upgrade to towers, possibly from the same series of B&W you already own. Would it be an even trade?..no, but you would have consistancy at least.

 

[jamie2112]

It sounds like you may need something like this for house parties http://www.shopcerwinvega.com/detail/CER+CLS-215/CLS-215

 

[applez]

B&W > Klipsch

I have always preferred B&W's to Klipsch for sound and I think you should realize that quality shouldn't be sacrificed for more db. Get a more powerful amp and see how that works before you jump on the Klipsch train. Btw, You have a pretty nice setup for a teenager.

 

[markw]

Party you say?

As far as "loud" and amp power goes, doubling the power of an amp will have a negilgible effect on the overall loudness. It'll only show up as a bit more headroom on peaks.

For a speaker to produce a level that's perceived as twice as loud, you need ten times the power.

If ultimate loudness is rour goal, then more efficient speakers is the way to go here. But, don't expect the same sound quality you get from the B & W's. They are designed for music, not loud.

Go with the Klipsch, Cerwin Vega! or some other frat rock speakers (those with high sensitivity ratings).

 

[Alex2507]

For a speaker to produce a level that's perceived as twice as loud, you need ten times the power.

What increase in dB would that perceived doubling in loudness be represented by?

 

[Rickster71]

What increase in dB would that perceived doubling in loudness be represented by?

Hey Alex I'm still looking for the formula, though I do remember that an increase of 6dB of a sound means "twice as loud."

+ 1 dB means about a 12% increase in SPL
+ 3 dB means about a 40% increase in SPL
+ 6dB means about twice as loud (200% of the original SPL)
+ 12 dB means about four times as loud (400% of the original SPL)
- 1 dB means about 90% of the original SPL
- 3 dB means about 70% of the original SPL
- 6 dB means about half of the original SPL
- 12 dB means about one-quarter of the original SPL

 

[markw]

What increase in dB would that perceived doubling in loudness be represented by?

That would be about ten db. SPL, which is measured in decibels, doesn't translate into perceived loudness nicely either.

Remember, we don't hear in a linear fashion. To keep it simple, as sound intensity (SPL) get louder, our ears hear less. The chart towards the botttom of this article sorta simplifies all this gobbledygook.

to wit : http://www.audioholics.com/education/frequently-asked-questions/relationship-between-watts-and-dbs

 

[Rickster71]

Thanks Mark good find.
I've had this link in my favorites for years: http://www.prorec.com/Articles/tabid/109/EntryId/51/Whats-your-dB-IQ.aspx
I wonder why there is such a big difference between the two?

 

[Alex2507]

The odd part is that you need to double the watts to raise the SPL 3dB and I was trying to correlate that but I just noticed that I can't think straight right now.

Thanks for the links. I'll become well informed later.

 

[markw]

I don't think they are really that different.

Thanks Mark good find.
I've had this link in my favorites for years: http://www.prorec.com/Articles/tabid/109/EntryId/51/Whats-your-dB-IQ.aspx
I wonder why there is such a big difference between the two?

Note that the article refers to "SPL"' something that is measured with a meter. That's a linear measurement.

What we're talking about here is "perceived loudness", something that takes place in our ears. There, SPL becomes somewhat irelevent because how we hear with our ears is not linear.

As the SPL increases, our ability to hear is "desensitized" so that the effect is that you don't "hear" high SPL with the same efficiency with which you hear with a lower SPL.

It's an inverse relationship. The higher the SPL (what's measured with a meter), the less efficient our physical hearing (what determines "perceived loudness") is.

It's sort of like the point of diminishing returns. The more you spend, the less improvement you get. Rick's article hints atthis in the section "Let's take it to the real world" or something like that.

"Unfortunately, that's not the only fly in the ointment we have to deal with, because it's also true that the way in which the ear responds to various frequencies is dependent on the loudness of the sound itself. In other words, the ear's frequency response is flatter for loud sounds, and less flat when the sound is relatively soft."

...whatever "flatter" is supposed to mean.

 

[deedubb]

Personally, I would never switch from B&W to Klipsch. There is no problem having an amp or receiver with higher watt output than what your speakers are rated. In fact, if you like your music loud, you are more likely to blow your speakers with an underpowered amp. I'd stick with your current speakers and upgrade your amp and go from there.

 

[no. 5]

For a speaker to produce a level that's perceived as twice as loud, you need ten times the power.

And add to that the fact that a loudspeaker cannot produce infinite loudness, as there are mechanical and thermal limits to the amount of power a speaker can handle, as well as power compression to be dealt with.

There is no problem having an amp or receiver with higher watt output than what your speakers are rated.

Absolutely, after all, the 'recommended wattage' provided by manufacturers is something of a guess.

In fact, if you like your music loud, you are more likely to blow your speakers with an underpowered amp.

To a point, a twenty watt amplifier driven to unimaginable levels of distortion probably won't hurt anything, but a kilowatt going through the same speakers will likely spell their death.

But I'm being somewhat pedantic.

 

[bandphan]

Seths sugestion of the a500 would be a great low cost solution that should drive your speakers to levels that you seem to want. Whats the sub crossed at?