Chopin_Guy

Chopin_Guy

Senior Audioholic
Golfman,

Well you have been getting very good responses on here thus far. Now seeing as how you do crank your system and are required real bass response in your theater you are really going to need a serious sub, and as Paradigm said those two Kilpsch subs won't even come close to what one good sub will be able to do for you...

For a $1k you have a decent amount of choices, but if you really want theater/reference bass response in a room that size it will be hard to get unless if you go the DIY route. Like Paradigm said, you can build one serious sub for 1k. While going the route of buying pre-built will get you much less around 1k.

For your room size, buying pre-built you will need to save up a bit more ($1.5k to $1.7k) to save up for a SVS PB13-Ultra or PC13-Ultra, Epik Conquest, HSU ULS-15--these are units that will give you what you are looking for. Also, you can sometimes find B-stock with SVS, which are new returned units---which is how I got my PB13 and saved $400 dollars on it, and it was never used....just returned.
 
G

golfman

Enthusiast
I agree that some of the subs that were mentioned might be better. I really can't see how a 15 in woofer can handle movie soundtracks. Seems that it would recover too slow. Correct me if I am wrong but a sealed box design won't move as much air in the room as a vented enclosure would? If the port diameter is large enough it is a much better enclosure. So I am not big on sealed enclosures. I guess what I am asking is why are these other subs so much better than the klipsch sub12. They all use 300 or 350 watt rms bash amps, enclosure should be of good design with the klipsch and I can get two of them for about $900.00. I would think that would move alot more air than one twelve and about the same as one 15in woofer. I would also have 600 watts of rms power.
 
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
The size of the woofer doesn't equate to the speed.

I have 2k watts going to my sealed sub and that's about half of what it needs. I would let you use 4 of those sub12's in a fight against my one sealed sub:eek:

I agree that some of the subs that were mentioned might be better. I really can't see how a 15 in woofer can handle movie soundtracks. Seems that it would recover too slow. Correct me if I am wrong but a sealed box design won't move as much air in the room as a vented enclosure would? If the port diameter is large enough it is a much better enclosure. So I am not big on sealed enclosures. I guess what I am asking is why are these other subs so much better than the klipsch sub12. They all use 300 or 350 watt rms bash amps, enclosure should be of good design with the klipsch and I can get two of them for about $900.00. I would think that would move alot more air than one twelve and about the same as one 15in woofer. I would also have 600 watts of rms power.
 
Chopin_Guy

Chopin_Guy

Senior Audioholic
Golfman,

Everything that has been suggested to you here both the route of DIY and the SVS, HSU, and Epik models will put two of those Klipsch subs to shame---I would even say they would put *four* of them to shame. There is alot more that goes into a subs performance than just sheer numbers in terms of amp power and driver size. You have to take cabinet design, driver design, driver sensitivity, and of course the amp power---just as a few.

The 15" drivers suggested to you will not be too slow for movies soundtracks....not by a long shot....and this whole complex with large drivers being 'slow' is a common misconception and one that doesn't even exist. As a well engineered 15" sub will perform musically and accurately. For example, the Epik Conquest which was one of my previous suggestions to you is a 18" driver sub with a 1000watt bash amp---this sub has been one of the highest rated of the ID products along with the SVS PB13-Ultra...Both are BEASTS for movies...

If you cannot see the difference is quality and design of what has been recommended to you then you will be left is mediocre (at best) bass with your Klipsch idea...
 
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G

golfman

Enthusiast
If you cannot see the difference is quality and design of what has been recommended to you then you will be left is mediocre (at best) bass with your Klipsch idea...
I not disputing the advice I have been given. I was really trying to get more of a reason than these speakers are better than the klipsch. You speak of quality well unless I have seen and heard all the speakers that is hard to use in my purchase decision. I have yet to hear anyone state as to why the klipsch is a bad choice. Maybe things like it distorts or it's bass response is lacking, the amp has problems, its boomy. Things like that would help me. I guess unless you have heard it or owned it. I won't get those kinds of responses. I think that some of the speakers suggested are very nice, I was just looking for of a more technical answer as to why they are better than the klipsch.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Sir, it is simple fact that due to the budget they have to work within, the vast majority of companies must use compromised drivers and cabinet designs. Let's even consider the Paradigm Servo 15 v.2. A very expensive over $2000 USD unit. Even it uses a very compromised driver compared to what is available. Look at the 1/2 cost of the DIY unit that ParadigmDawg now uses, employing a world class TC Sounds TC3000K motor based driver(AudioPuse AXIS). It provides complete obliteration of the Servo, due to the substantially superior motor assembly that has less power compression and far superior linearity, meaning the magnetic field and suspension of the driver act as a progressive linear device as you increase the input voltage/power to the unit. Buying the parts yourself and assembling them, you are not wasting dollars putting it into the marketing, labor, distribution and other costs involved with a pre-built item. The Infinity Kappa Perfect driver mentioned is much the same: a very linear driver(though without the extreme excursion and power handling of the AXIS driver), that within it's rated linear range, is extremely linear. Match this with a ported cabinet using a sufficient sized slot port and the result is tremendous due to that extremely linear driver. The sound quality won't change whether you use it at 85db or 110dB in your room. Something like the Klipche must use extremely compromised motor. You could easily match or even exceed the performance of the Klipsche using a $70 12" budget range Lanzar driver. Forget about comparing it to the Kappa Perfect ported build; it would take 3 or 4 of those Klipsche units to begin to match just the SPL of the Perfect, and even then, it would not likely match the sound quality, though, it might, given the much less stress on 4 drivers compared to 1, but I would not expect it to be significant. You can build a maximum quality subwoofer for about $1200 including amplification. Maximum as in there is no better ; though you need to use specific driver and cabinet design of course. You have to spend 3x or more that for a retail unit of similar quality - and even then - cost alone does not guarantee quality - but there are some very good quality retail/commercial units in the $3500-$4000 range.

For top quality SQ in ported systems, drivers include JL Audio W6v2, Infinity Kappa Perfect VQ
For top quality SQ in sealed or ported systems, drivers include JL Audio W7, TC Sounds TC3000, TC Sounds LMS5400, AudioPulse AXIS, AudioPulse UltraLMS. some SoundSplinter drivers(these are just TC Sounds drivers from TC's lower-mid range, re-branded for SoundSplinter.com retail sale).

The above are only some suggestions, there are some (bBut not many at all) other drivers that have equivalent quality.

-Chris
 
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AVRat

AVRat

Audioholic Ninja
Okay, the Sub-12 is boomy and definitely lacks deep bass response. It’s no better than the Def Tech even with the 12” driver. I have compared both in a room your size at the same time. Unfortunately, the mass market manufacturers design for appeal first then try to attain as much performance from the package as possible but generally woefully short. Larger designs with good performance aren’t as aesthetically appealing in a showroom floor.

To reach the visceral, bombastic, HT experience you would like to achieve you’re going to need to consider the internet direct manufacturers we’ve recommended at least to obtain the best $$/performance value. As mentioned, if you really want the sh!t eating grin response, then you’ll want 2 of the ones I referenced (you could start with just one to get an idea of its performance) or 1 of their higher level products.
 
G

golfman

Enthusiast
Thank you, I am getting the picture now. So to sum up what is being said. The power compression on a klipsch driver at this price point is not that good in comparison to sum that have been suggested. Power compression is made up of voice coil, magnet structure, etc. This is a rating based on when the driver no longer can perform acoustically and additional power is wasted. Basically turned into heat resistance on the voice coils. I wish klipsch would release some thiele small numbers on there drivers so we could really compare them with some of the raw driver listed on the internet. So now my quest becomes which of the raw drivers has the best performance based on their theile small numbers. I would think that building is a better choice than buying?

Does anyone have enclosure plans they can send or should I just use winisd for the design?
 
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
You better head down to the DIY section where the real men hang out:eek:

Here is a detailed thread on the ported sub. Andrew or Chris could tell you what you need for the sealed.

Does anyone have enclosure plans they can send or should I just use winisd for the design?
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
Thank you, I am getting the picture now. So to sum up what is being said. The power compression on a klipsch driver at this price point is not that good in comparison to sum that have been suggested. Power compression is made up of voice coil, magnet structure, etc. This is a rating based on when the driver no longer can perform acoustically and additional power is wasted. Basically turned into heat resistance on the voice coils. I wish klipsch would release some thiele small numbers on there drivers so we could really compare them with some of the raw driver listed on the internet. So now my quest becomes which of the raw drivers has the best performance based on their theile small numbers. I would think that building is a better choice than buying?

Does anyone have enclosure plans they can send or should I just use winisd for the design?
For which driver?
 
G

golfman

Enthusiast
Not sure which driver. good question. I guess I need to make that choice then ask about some plans. :D
 
T

The Viking

Audioholic
I'd be careful with that JL because they dip down into the 2 ohm region and a lot of folks have reported problems with the EP2500s driving them. Check out the "Poor Man's JL Fathom 113" thread over at AVS. You might try using two JL drivers and running them in series, but that's considerably more cheese...

Jason
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
I'd be careful with that JL because they dip down into the 2 ohm region and a lot of folks have reported problems with the EP2500s driving them. Check out the "Poor Man's JL Fathom 113" thread over at AVS. You might try using two and running them in series, but that's considerably more cheese...

Jason
I have my 12W7 on the EP2500 and I have had no issues to date with things running correctly.
 
T

The Viking

Audioholic
That's certainly good news. I was just pointing out that the Behringer isn't rated for ~2-3 ohms...some seem to handle it fine, but there are certainly a lot of folks that have had their EP2500 "pop" while driving such a load. I was originally looking at a pair of 12W7 drivers in sealed enclosures powered by two EP2500's, but it looks like I might have to use two in single enclosure or wire them in series.

Good to hear that your's works well!

Jason
 
Chopin_Guy

Chopin_Guy

Senior Audioholic
That's certainly good news. I was just pointing out that the Behringer isn't rated for ~2-3 ohms...some seem to handle it fine, but there are certainly a lot of folks that have had their EP2500 "pop" while driving such a load. I was originally looking at a pair of 12W7 drivers in sealed enclosures powered by two EP2500's, but it looks like I might have to use two in single enclosure or wire them in series.

Good to hear that your's works well!

Jason
It's rated for 2ohm usage....they state 2ohm performance in the specs at 1,200 watts x 2 right on their website...I wouldn't see bridged operation having any effect...
 
avaserfi

avaserfi

Audioholic Ninja
It's rated for 2ohm usage....they state 2ohm performance in the specs at 1,200 watts x 2 right on their website...I wouldn't see bridged operation having any effect...
Bridged the EP2500 is not stable at two ohms. Minimum impedance the EP2500 is stable at bridged is 4 ohms.

That being said an EP2500 powering a JL W7 series driver should present no problems.
 
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