Epson 7500 or Runco?

majorloser

majorloser

Moderator
also..

this is a construction to permanent loan...they will draw money as they build. I guess I can meet with their guy and get a total price, and then meet with a couple others aswell.

Thanks for all the info!!!! You guys are great
You're in luck. Take control of the loan draws. Send a letter to the bank that all draw approvals must come through you. See how long it takes the builder to wise up and listen when somebody else is controlling the money.

I did it. It was amazing how I started to get my phone calls returned when I called. I also installed all of the low voltage stuff myself before the drywall went up without any arguments from the builder. As long as everything meets code, it shouldn't be a problem.

Of course the builder wants to use their subs and suppliers. There's more markup and profit available.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
The room is 30' long, 18' wide with 10' ceilings. The sofa will be place halfway in the room, at 15'.
The midpoint is one of the worst positions you could pick for acoustics. However, that is all up to you in deciding what comes first. For rectangular rooms, positioning listener at 38% of room length, whether from front or back wall, is the de facto recommendation. Or think of odd fractions like 1/3, 3/5 3/7, etc.

I am not sure if a totally black room would be nice with pool and ping pong table...and being in Hot Houston. So there will have to be some compromise. The screen will mostly be used at night.
Oh, I hear ya. Its not like its all or nothing. My point was that anything you do towards light control will be immediately beneficial. Just keep it in mind, always, when choosing paint color, carpet/rugs, front wall/side wall decor, etc, etc, etc. Ceiling is rather key, and I left mine white. Still somewhat the bat cave, kinda, sorta.

What i could do is put a plasma up on another wall that can be used while plalying pool or ping pong and use the large screen soley for night movies or with the blinds down i could watch some football.
For sure its an idea. If there is a lot of viewing, bulb costs alone will make the plasma purchase a worthy consideration. And seeing how so much TV is compressed to hell, coupled with fast moving sports... its an idea I support.

That being said, I think 120" screen is the way to go. The Carada's are really nice.
Like I keep saying...... please fire the pic at the wall. You may have incredibly different reactions. Anything from, "WHOA I am getting sea sick!" to... "Oh, man, I could have DOUBLED my viewing size, and why didn't I?"

Maybe its better to get everything prewired for now and wait till I move in to see what things look like?
Maybe. I know I would absolutely want to see for myself. Id also want to clap, yell, shout, to see what the acoustics are like. I'm a huge proponent of acoustical treatments, and room correction on top for icing on the cake. Combine those with some thought on listener positioning, and you will have people say to you what they say to me. They love my HT for the audio. Which is kinda cool considering I gave video top priority in the setup, not necessarily by cost, but by how I put it together.

On another thread I have written about speakers. I am debating between In-wall Axiom's (w22) vs. there new cabinet speakers (T60's, which are like their M60's) I would get a 7.1 system. But pre-planning this may be tough and better to see how things look once I am in the new house...what do you think?
Speakers are so much more difficult to choose. That being said, I would never, ever use inwalls, onwalls, inceilings unless I was forced to. OTOH, you could do a false wall in front for utter immersion, still hide your speakers, and have value-rich, power handling, high sensitivity speakers hidden.

Does the Carada screen offer a better viewing angle than the Da-lite?
I sure would think so. The viewing angle is the main detraction from the DaLite HP. Remember, just for the HP though, as these screen companies do make many kinds
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
The room has a dual focus, media and rec room...so its not a true media and there will be ambient light. I am not sure if a totally black room would be nice with pool and ping pong table...and being in Hot Houston. So there will have to be some compromise. The screen will mostly be used at night.
Please use directional lighting and multiple loads of lighting. Plan on 3+ loads in the basement to separate the different areas. One set of lights near the screen which can be turned off. One near the seating which can be dimmed. One near the gaming which can be dimmed. Despite all the other mess ups I see in this business, the worst is poor lighting design.

Take a quick look at my family room: http://www.avintegrated.com/lighting.html to get an idea of how much light you can have in a room while still having a solid image up on screen.

What i could do is put a plasma up on another wall that can be used while plalying pool or ping pong and use the large screen soley for night movies or with the blinds down i could watch some football.
Yes, but you want to make sure to wire audio and video for this properly and have it done by a qualified A/V person who knows what the heck you want the end result to be. Do you want a 'stand alone' secondary display? Do you want to split all signals to your projector and TV and have them match always? Do you want separate audio? Very important stuff!

That being said, I think 120" screen is the way to go. The Carada's are really nice. They have 2 types of screens, is it worth the extra money for the nicer screen?
The reality is that the screen MATERIAL is identical between the Precision and Criterion screens. But, the Criterion is a much better frame design. It is thicker and uses a beveled edge to deliver a better masking edge to the onscreen image. The difference in price - about $100-$200 depending on screen size is ALL about the frame and nothing else. A 10% (or so) difference in price for the quality jump in the frame is appropriate. I can say that I've installed both types, and the Criterion is worth the couple hundred bucks if you can spend it.

For the comparabile Da-Lite Cinema Vision screen...
http://www.dalite.com/products/pricing_pdfs/234.pdf
At 133" diagonal: You have a MSRP of almost $2,000 - even if cost is half that, you aren't getting it for under about $1,500 from an online seller.
http://www.google.com/search?q=87174V+dalite&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1

Maybe its better to get everything prewired for now and wait till I move in to see what things look like?
It is best to ensure that when you move in, you don't need to reposition wiring, or redo walls to accomodate mistakes made by lousy A/V engineers or greedy builders. It might make sense to contact a local A/V firm to ensure that you are actually getting a proper installation the first time. Even if it's just a few hours. Not sure where you are located, but you might want to make some phone calls and do some Internet searches for local installers who may find it in their best interests to help your cause. If you spend $400 or so on a A/V Engineer and he makes it so you don't have to repostion a wire and cut into finished drywall, you can save that $400 right there. Likewise, they can ensure you have conduit run to the perfect locations for any future needs and discuss things like equipment placement, lighting, universal remotes, etc. Remember - the worst place to put your gear is the front of the room - to many lights flashing where you don't need them!

On another thread I have written about speakers. I am debating between In-wall Axiom's (w22) vs. there new cabinet speakers (T60's, which are like their M60's) I would get a 7.1 system. But pre-planning this may be tough and better to see how things look once I am in the new house...what do you think?
I like floorstanding speakers when practical, but I really lean towards the Sonance 8" speakers (831, 832, 833, etc.) because of their 3-way design and full pivoting design. Other brands, including Axiom, sound excellent.

Dont' forget that subwoofers can be pricey for a good model.

I think I will have do decide between the JVC, Epson and Sony. If it is only a differenc of $1k or so, I will probably opt for the JVC.
The JVC is an excellent choice - and the Sony's really are nice as well. Really, lots of VERY good projectors on the market right now.

Does the Carada screen offer a better viewing angle than the Da-lite?
I think the similar material from both is about the same. You can sit pretty wide on either screen with minimal dropoff in screen gain or obvious light uniformity change.

what is the benefits of white, brilliant white and grey with the Carada's? If there may be some ambient light, is one better than the other?
I think that most people, when using screens in ambient light, are not watching movies where the loss of a bit of shadow detail is critical. Usually, they are watching sports. So, I would stick with the brilliant white under almost all circumstances. This is similar to Da-Lite and other manufacturers having different screen materials. The Brilliant White offers a bit of positive screen gain and will give you a punchier image - especially at 120"+ in screen size. After dark viewing won't be improved with the grey screen, but it could help contrast ratios in serious movies when some lights are on. But, if sports is more likely with lights on, then stick with the Brilliant White surface.
 
P

parinshah

Audioholic
Ok..Thanks!

So Listening position is very important...as is lighting...Thanks!

I was wondering if i should put peripheral lighting around the room that dims or what....but 3 different sections is a great idea.

Are the sonance 831, 832, 833 in walls? My AV guy uses these and Triads...do you like one over the other...or should i get the axioms? Which is a better bang for the buck?

I guess the benefit of floor standing is that I can be free to place them anywhere, but with the in-walls i have a clutter free room. I am not an AV guy...will I really notice the difference that much in terms of sound?

So if i go with a screen, I will go with the brilliant white from Carada, or the da-lite which my AV guy sells. I do watch sports during the day at times.

Back to basics....if I have a room like this where part is media and part is pool/ping pong, and there will be ambient light during the day, am i better off sticking with the Hitachi 70" DLP that i have or should i spring forward and get the projector/screen?
 
P

parinshah

Audioholic
If I do go with a screen....the da-lite and carada both seem good, but isn't the carada half the price?
 
majorloser

majorloser

Moderator
I agree with multiple zones of lighting. All of them on dimmers. The Lutron Maestro IR system is available at Home Depot and is fairly cheap. Can be used with almost any learning remote control. Best of all, any DIY homeowner can install light switches.

http://www.lutron.com/CMS400/page.aspx?id=16947

I've installed three separate lighting areas in my small theater. Recently I have added LED lights to the 12V track light system in the back seating areas. The nice part about LED lights is that they don't need much voltage to run. With the dimmer turned all the way down they will still remain lit while the halogen lights in the front of the room are basically off. This works out nice when you need lights to read, eat or move about the room. Yet it doesn't effect the image on the screen. It was like adding an additional zone of lighting without the wiring and controls.

Oh, most important!!!!
Do not have any of your AV components on the same circuit as the lighting. Make sure they are install on another circuit. No sense risking any interference or humming from dimmers.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
Oh, most important!!!!
Do not have any of your AV components on the same circuit as the lighting. Make sure they are install on another circuit. No sense risking any interference or humming from dimmers.
Oh yeah! Thanks for throwing that out there!

As I said, three zones is the MINIMUM I would consider. For a dedicated home theater with wall sconces, and rope lighting, and multiple rows of seating, I typically recommend 5-6 zones of lighting for what may only be a 18x15 foot space. But, you should look at 3 zones as the basics.

Electrical - You should have at least one, if not TWO dedicated 20amp circuits pulled to the equipment location and a power jumper from the equipment location to the projector location and to the subwoofer location.

There is a lot of details in setting up a room properly for A/V and getting it right, but if you are willing to keep plugging away with questions, then you will keep getting answers.

While I'm not an electrician, electrical work is far less complex than A/V work in most homes, and I went ahead and wired all of my in-ceiling lighting at my home after the home was built. But, during construction the same 32 recessed lights I installed for about $1,000 or so - total, with IR controlled dimmers, would have cost about $4,000 or more from the builder. If you are up for some DIY options, then be creative and be ready for some work on your own after the builder leaves your space.
 
P

parinshah

Audioholic
If I did 3 zones, how many lights in each zone and in what configuration, given the set up I have.

Also is the da-lite screen worth the extra $$$ over the carada? Which da-lite is good in ambient light.

And back to basics...if I do have ambient light at times during the day to watch football, is it better to stick with the 70" hitachi rear projection DLP or would I be ok moving forward with the projector and screen?

Are those inwall sonances? How much do they go for!
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
If I did 3 zones, how many lights in each zone and in what configuration, given the set up I have.
Hard for me to say without seeing the space. Usually I would put 3 or so lights over the theater seats, maybe track, or directional pendant lights. I would then put about half (or more) the room lighting in the half of the room with the games. You can go with 4, 6, 8, or 14 or more lights - but I would shoot to be able to light the area evenly without pumping the light output up to much. For the front of the room near the screen, I would shoot to balance out the rest of the room. Keep it bright enough that when you have the lights on the room is actually able to be BRIGHT! People screw this up. They think that to make a theater dark you should not have lights. The opposite is true... or more accurately, making a theater dark is easy - just turn the lights out. But, to make a theater bright requires more lights. Especially if you are able to go with a darker paint shade in the room. (Make sure to use FLAT paint, not glossy in any way) At the end of the day, this is very much about knowing the room you are in and lighting is more than you may think is reasonable.

Also is the da-lite screen worth the extra $$$ over the carada?
IMO, no it is not. Not at all in fact. I'm still working for a company that installs Da-lite and there is nothing about their screen which is superior to the Carada.

Which da-lite is good in ambient light.
The Cinema Contour design is their screen frame which is comparible to the Carada. Spend the extra money for the velvet border, and the screen material that they have which I like is their Cinema Vision which is a 1.3 gain. Not at all, in any way, one bit better than the Carada.
http://www.dalite.com/products/selecting.php?viewMode=front

And back to basics...if I do have ambient light at times during the day to watch football, is it better to stick with the 70" hitachi rear projection DLP or would I be ok moving forward with the projector and screen?
It all depends on how much light is on the screen while watching the game. If you have some windows with shades that are removed from the screen by a bit, or you can make it that way, then the big screen will work absolutely awesome without issue. But, if you have LARGE windows, that aren't covered, then you may have some issues.

Are those inwall sonances? How much do they go for!
Sonance (www.sonance.com) makes about 100 different in-wall speaker designs. The 831 has an MSRP of something like $600 a pair, but actual street cost is a fair bit less if you shop around. They aren't inexpensive, but they are a bit better than most other speakers I've seen for the same or more money.
 
P

parinshah

Audioholic
Ok...I will work on the lighting. i will see how much the builder charges to do it, and then speak with an electrician to see how much he would charge and see what the difference is.

The AV guy the builder sells Sonance and Triads for speakers and Da-lite for screen, and Sony for projector. I don't mind using the Sony projector.

I will see if he will go with Axioms for speakers instead and Carada for the screen instead of Da-lite (this is so i can save some cash.

The sonances and Da-lite are nice too, but more expensive...if he doesn't maybe I will wait until after construction is finished, and just make sure he prewires for a Carada screen the size I want and the Axiom w22's inwalls and the 150 center channel ( i will also get the EP500 sub). For around $2000 I can get this Axiom system. I think a similar Sonance or Triad would be more, is that correct?

Does anyone know what a similar Sonance or Triad would be compared to this Axiom system I listed? The prices for the Axiom are on this site: http://www.axiomaudio.com/products.html

I just need to figure out the screen size I want sitting 15' back...i think i will go around 110"...and then how far apart to place the speakers, fronts and center channel from the screen and ground.


I have a 42" plasma already..I may throw that on another wall in the room for "light" tv watching while shooting pool. I don't need all the speakers attached to it.

Thanks for your help
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
The AV guy the builder sells Sonance and Triads for speakers and Da-lite for screen, and Sony for projector. I don't mind using the Sony projector.
All four are fine name brands. Triad particularly makes some high end stuff for inwalls. However, for the same quality, you pay more, often a lot more, to have good SQ with inwalls than you would with free standers.

I will see if he will go with Axioms for speakers instead and Carada for the screen instead of Da-lite (this is so i can save some cash.
Carada seems to be a great choice. The ONLY DaLite I ever spoke of here is the High Power.

Here is one review, with over 1,400 posts in it:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=773065

Here is a consumer mini-review of 5 different screens he tried, and the HP won:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1067231

Does anyone know what a similar Sonance or Triad would be compared to this Axiom system I listed? The prices for the Axiom are on this site: http://www.axiomaudio.com/products.html
I sure don't, and if you find even just one person who has compared these and shares the impressions with you, I would consider yourself lucky.

I just need to figure out the screen size I want sitting 15' back...i think i will go around 110"...and then how far apart to place the speakers, fronts and center channel from the screen and ground.
May I please ask you what is possibly wrong with my recommendation, that has not only been repeated here, but repeated everywhere I go?

I'll just say this. I spent an ENTIRE week firing the pic before deciding. The screen I chose, at the same distance as you, is more than double the viewing surface you are considering. In such an instance, the HP becomes much more desirable. Choose your screen size before the screen technology.
 
P

parinshah

Audioholic
I know what you are saying...but since we are building a home, they would like to prewire for everything. It seems hard to wait till we move in and have everything wired, projector placed and then put up a screen and put in the in-wall speakers. I guess to do this, I would have to get floor standing speakers, right?

Is it difficult to put the screen up myself?
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
I know what you are saying...but since we are building a home, they would like to prewire for everything. It seems hard to wait till we move in and have everything wired, projector placed and then put up a screen and put in the in-wall speakers. I guess to do this, I would have to get floor standing speakers, right?

Is it difficult to put the screen up myself?
The screen is easy. Depending on how big, what type, its more about finding good stud placements perhaps.

Ya know, I don't know what to say anymore. Sure, you can have them have it all set to go, cookie cutter style. If you have ever played with a nice pair of stereo speakers, positioning them for best imaging and stage, you would know why I would want to personally play around.

After all, once the screen size is finalized, the speaker placements options become set in stone, more or less. Let's say you went 110". Then you realized you are like me, that bigger is better. Then all of a sudden those speaker placements in the wall will be blocked by the larger screen. Or its definitely a possibility.

Sure, no speakers showing is nice aesthetically. However, again, I offer the idea of a false wall for you front stage. Why do I feel like I am repeating everything that I've said... You can have power handling capable, high sensitivity, value rich floorstanders this way. I mean. . . If you wanted.

It depends on how good you want this to look. I would follow the advice given about having a specialist do a walk thru, and point out the various places to run conduit perhaps.

I don't know man. I think I am done with this thread only because I think I've done and said as much as I can at this point. Don't worry, you're in good hands.
 
P

parinshah

Audioholic
I appreciate your thoughts....thanks for your time! I know what you are saying...go with the floor standing, and take my time with picking out a screen. that is the smart and patient thing to do, unfortunately i need to buy some patience! thanks again.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Don't get taken advantage of by installers going to boutique brands if you can avoid it. While I do custom installation, I try to stick with quality brands which also have excellent pricing - which I pass on to customers.

Heck - maybe just a nice gift for the wife. :D
What do you do if you customers go and shop your hardware list? Just curious.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
What do you do if you customers go and shop your hardware list? Just curious.
Depending on what they are buying, I sometimes recommend that they purchase from Sam's Club or some other place because they can get better pricing there.

But, typically my pricing is within 10% or so of online pricing and is almost always less than Best Buy/CC/Myer-Emco pricing.

Since I do my own company part time, I'm not terribly pressed for getting boutique brands and selling them as much as I'm in it to do a good job and enjoy myself while installing good systems.

I also am a Crestron programmer, so I pick up B-stock Crestron stuff, which I can pass onto customers for far less than COST of those items, and program them. I warranty the items I get used, and the client's end up with really killer remote controls that are 99.99% reliable.

Compared to MSRP I'm usually well under. Compared to some online vendors, I'm more expensive. But, unlike some online vendors, I am an authorized dealer which means that they get warranty service with me.

Keep in mind - if you buy online and someone were to install it, and the product were to 'fail' - for whatever reason. You would have to pay that person to come out, uninstall the item, then you would have to ship it back, and then pay that person to come back out and reinstall it.

If you are a DIY type, then that's fine.

If you need the assistance of someone else, then at $60 or more an hour, and often a 4 hour minimum, that could be hundreds of dollars in service work which you will be stuck paying for.

My warranty extends to the products I sell only. If I am only installing it, I can't (and should not) be on the hook for whether or not that product works to the client's expectations.

Some client's buy some things themselves - like the projector. Others just let me get everything for them. A new $3,000 projector may only have a couple hundred dollars of profit in it for an installer. Similar with plasma/lcd displays. So, I'm not going to freak out on a $10,000 installation if customers shop for the cheapest display.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
If you need the assistance of someone else, then at $60 or more an hour, and often a 4 hour minimum, that could be hundreds of dollars in service work which you will be stuck paying for.

My warranty extends to the products I sell only. If I am only installing it, I can't (and should not) be on the hook for whether or not that product works to the client's expectations.
What we do as of about a year ago is charge for the initial consultation. This is to sit down, do needs assessment, put together the product and labor estimate.

At this point they can take that and turn it into an RFP, or if they go with us, we credit the money back toward the project costs.

A really interesting trend developed: When they didn't initially go with us, they ended up coming back for us to straighten it out.
 
P

parinshah

Audioholic
From a consumer standpoint, it gets trickey...

I want Axiom speakers with stores don't see, a Carada Screen which stores don't sell, and I am having a hard time finding an Espon dealer in Houston that will install everything that they don't sell. It is much cheaper for me to get the
Axiom speakers over RBH and paradigm (and I am not an audiophile and don't hear all the small differences), and the Carada screen which is much cheaper than Da-lite. But if I go with the more expensive brands that the custom guys sell (Runco, JVC projectors...Da lite screens...paradigm/B&W/Dyanudio)...I spend almost twice as much for a system that I will use maybe once a month

Its hard to figure out where to put more of the emphasis...saving money or on the warranty given by custom installers to use their stuff...

If anyone know of a good, honest installer in Houston...please let me know!
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
If you are just looking for service installation, you may want to check with Best Buy & Cirtcuit City for their custom departments (Magnolia/Firedog) and let them know you are moving in and already have the gear, but don't have it installed and how much it will be. Otherwise, the Yellow Pages and Google are a good way to go.

There are other forums where asking a specific question can get you better results for that area as well. Just ask about custom installers in the Houston area which can help you out. With what people are trying to foist off on you, I know that it would be cheaper for me to fly out there for a weekend to install things than it would be for you to pay the prices you are likely to get. ;) So, you should have more luck locally finding someone to take care of you.
 
P

parinshah

Audioholic
I will look around for a local guy. We will start building the house in february.
If I have a hard time...I would consider flying you out for a weekend, somone that enjoys this stuff, and installing over some wine :)
 

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