HDMI hook up recommendations needed

[Exit]

My brother wants to connect his year old 50” Panasonic plasma TV (which has a “lot of HDMI connectors”) to an Onkyo 606 receiver. He wants to: (1) use the HDMI sources through the TV speakers without turning power on to the receiver, and (2) still be able to play everything through the receiver for surround sound in the highest quality formats.

He believes (he needs to verify) he has an HDMI TV output connection which he could run a HDMI cable to a receiver HDMI input. He would run all the HDMI devices through the TV. These include cable, an upconverting DVD player and probably a Blu-Ray player in the future.

Would this work out alright in general and particularly in the processing of the HDMI sound sources at highest quality? For best sound does he have to run the HDMI sources through the receiver first and then to the TV (which is probably the standard way)? Are there issues with lip sync on one hookup versus the other?

On my hookup I run all the HDMI to the TV and all the audio from the sources through optical cables to the receiver and I don't have any lip sync problems. I believe this optical hookup option wouldn’t allow the latest high quality sound sources to work if I remember correctly.

 

[markw]

I think it works the other way around.

I strongly doubt that the TV will pass HDMI signals through themselves to a receiver.

He would need to run all sources to the receiver, and then run one HDMI cable, for video HDMI, from the output of the receiver to the TV. This way, there's only one cable running to the TV, assuming the receiver passes the video. No guarantees on the sound, though. He may be totally dependent on the receiver for that.

One way to have his cake and eat it too would be for him to

a) Run a HDMI cable from each source to the TV. This should pass rudimentary audio to the TV.

b) Run a digital audio link from each source to the receiver.

c) Use the TV for video selection, and the receiver for audio selection. He won't even need the receiver to be on unless he wants to use it.

d) When he wants to use the receiver for audio, simply turn the volume all the way down on the TV.

 

[Exit]

Will the digital audio links pass the latest surround sound formats?

 

[TLS Guy]

Will the digital audio links pass the latest surround sound formats?

I don't think so, against the rules. Under HDCP rules a TV is an end device and is not required to have repeater architecture, and therefore can not pass out high def video, or loss less audio.

 

[Exit]

Thanksfor the information.

 

[markw]

No

Will the digital audio links pass the latest surround sound formats?

If you're refering to the latest and greatest formats only available on Blu-Ray, then no. These are only available over HDMI.

But, unless your Bllu-ray receiver is able to decode these internally, it's a moot point. Many can't.

But, if your Blu-Ray player offers analog outputs, and many do, any receiver that can accept these analog inputs is good to go. Just feed these directly from the player to the receiver and go through the required setup.

 

[Exit]

If you're refering to the latest and greatest formats only available on Blu-Ray, then no. These are only available over HDMI.

But, unless your Bllu-ray receiver is able to decode these internally, it's a moot point. Many can't.

But, if your Blu-Ray player offers analog outputs, and many do, any receiver that can accept these analog inputs is good to go. Just feed these directly from the player to the receiver and go through the required setup.

Are the receiver analog inputs the same (five?) RCA inputs that are used to hook up an SACD player? Those analog inputs would pass the latest high quality audio sound because the incoming signals would be decoded in the Blu-Ray player?

What exactly are the extra benefits of the latest audio formats over traditional Dolby 5.1 and are they worth trying to set a system up for them?

The Onkyo 606 has a pretty comprehensive description of the feature set on the Crutchfield website (below).

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_580TXS606B/Onkyo-TX-SR606-Black.html?tp=179

I see there are two optical inputs and four HDMI inputs. It looks like trying a through-the-TV hookup with optical connections for sound is going to be limited to two devices and a through-the-receiver hookup for 4 devices is more or less the way to go, especially for a potential Blu-Ray addition..

I am not sure how cable hooks up (I use satelite). Do the cable boxes use HDMI or do they use a digital optical hookup for sound? He has Buckeve Cablesystem in Toledo, Ohio and I assume he gets high definition channels or will in the future.

 

[markw]

Are the receiver analog inputs the same (five?) RCA inputs that are used to hook up an SACD player? Those analog inputs would pass the latest high quality audio sound because the incoming signals would be decoded in the Blu-Ray player?

Yes, and yes.

What exactly are the extra benefits of the latest audio formats over traditional Dolby 5.1 and are they worth trying to set a system up for them?

Some say it's a night and day difference, others say it's not that big. Your choice.

The Onkyo 606 has a pretty comprehensive description of the feature set on the Crutchfield website (below).

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_580TXS606B/Onkyo-TX-SR606-Black.html?tp=179

Yes, it does. I didn't have time to absorb the whole thing.

I see there are two optical inputs and four HDMI inputs. It looks like trying a through-the-TV hookup with optical connections for sound is going to be limited to two devices and a through-the-receiver hookup for 4 devices is more or less the way to go, especially for a potential Blu-Ray addition..

They generally don't pass thru what is fed them from other sources. As TLS guy said, they are the "end of the line" for HDMI or other digital sources.

Most TV's only send out, digitally, what is generated from their internal ATSC tuners.

The only way I know of passing audio through a TV is via the red/white analog audio outputs but I don' think you want that.

I am not sure how cable hooks up (I use satelite). Do the cable boxes use HDMI or do they use a digital optical hookup for sound? He has Buckeve Cablesystem in Toledo, Ohio and I assume he gets high definition channels or will in the future.

A genaralized answer won't work here. Cable boxes are all different and each company has different specs for their boxes. You're best off checking with the local service provider for this one.

 

[Nexsen]

On the question of whether the new HD Audio formats of are of any benefit: A double blind study proved the difference in audio sampled at 192 KHz and audio sampled at 44.1 KHz could not be detected so in my "engineering" view there is no reason to suspect these new formats themselves will produce superior sound. Note, I said "themselves" and I will comment on that at the end.

Regardless of all the hype and confusion created by terms like "loss less" compression, the fact remains that few if any microphones can respond faster than 20 KHz to capture the original sound and almost no speakers which must ultimately recreate the pressure waves striking our ear drums can even go that high so according to the Nyquist theorem, a fundamental of information theory, a sample rate of twice those frequencies will reproduce the signal completely. Even considering high frequency tweeters the best of which might reach 45 KHz, a 96 KHz sampling rate would reproduce those inaudible frequencies making 192 KHz an even more ridiculous choice.

The physics hasn't changed and there is no reason to believe the engineers who were given the task over 20 years ago of creating a digital audio format that would reproduce everything the human ear can hear, failed in their mission. On the contrary, that double blind study proves they succeeded.

And when it comes to 8 channels I am still amazed when I listen to 6 channels (5.1) how little sound ever comes from the rear speakers. And what does come often seems contrived. Sure, there are some action movies where those channels add a lot - and maybe 2 more will add something too - but I hope they find more use for them than they have for the existing 2 rear speakers.

But when you consider the redundancy in all those channels there is no doubt that boosting the sampling to 96 KHz with compression over s/pdif could easily accommodate the extra channels without the incredible waste of bandwidth involved in HD audio's 8 channels of uncompressed 192 KHz audio.

At first I mentioned the double blind studies but I should mention with DVD audio sampled at 192 KHz there was some evidence that the producers held their production to higher quality standards under the misconception the format was superior and would reveal that quality. Even though the "format" made no difference the higher standards did and that difference can be detected and unfortunately gave the impression it was the format that accomplished that.

Had those same productions been recorded with 44.1 KHz sampling the same superior sound would have resulted - according to that double blind study.

If new movie sound tracks are held to a higher standard for similar reasons - because producers believe the HD Audio hype - they too may be superior but unless they deliberately degrade the non HD Audio versions "below" the 48 KHz sampled version the higher standars will accrue to the benefit of the 48 KHz soundtrack as well.

I don't have golden ears and will concede that "someone" might be able to hear a difference in a signal if I can see a difference on an audio analyzer but if there is no measurable difference then I cannot believe anyone can really hear it. It makes absolutely no sense to sample sound when recording at 48 or 96 KHz and later up-res it to 192 KHz for marketing reasons but that is exactly what is happening. It does make sense in some cases to sample at a higher frequency - perhaps 96 KHz - for production of 48 KHz audio.