The Bill of NON-rights

[Joe Schmoe]

Re Article XI: http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html

Article II is most commonly forgotten by right-wingers, who constantly express shock and dismay at those who voice liberal ideas.

The rest I pretty much agree with.

 

[itschris]

Agreed. You can either whine about the changing demographic of the U.S. or you can try to make it to your advantage.

Me? The wife and I are taking Spanish classes. Much easier for me to learn a second language (my wife's fourth) than make a bunch of immigrants learn English.

Bottom line: Yes English is the current/default language. No it isn't going to kill anyone to learn a second language either way. Truth is you will be farther ahead on the curve if you do. Learn and adapt, make it to your advantage.

Do you not see the flaw in that way of thinking? I mean I think it's great that you want to learn a second language. It's smart to do so. But to do so because other's won't do what they should is not the answer. If you constantly accomodate such things, they'll never change. If I had my way, you would never ever have to push 1 for English when you call anyone. You would never see Spanish written under the Engish word for Hardware in Home Depot. We don't do it for Asians or anyone else. Force people to adapt... that's is the absolutely the best way... but your asking the wrong side to make the change.

 

[Alex2507]

Force people to adapt... that's is the absolutely the best way...

Yeah, they're forcing us to learn Spanish.
But not like we forced the Indians to learn English.

 

[jinjuku]

Do you not see the flaw in that way of thinking? I mean I think it's great that you want to learn a second language. It's smart to do so. But to do so because other's won't do what they should is not the answer. If you constantly accomodate such things, they'll never change. If I had my way, you would never ever have to push 1 for English when you call anyone. You would never see Spanish written under the Engish word for Hardware in Home Depot. We don't do it for Asians or anyone else. Force people to adapt... that's is the absolutely the best way... but your asking the wrong side to make the change.

Chris,

I ain't disagreeing with you. I TOTALLY get it. But when your in the ring you either roll with the punch or take it on the chin.

I don't have much faith in our government (overall ) forcing the issue of English being mandatory.

1. English is the required language of pilots and air traffic controllers
2. English is the required language at the poker table

Those are about the only two places you will see it enforced. Honestly, I am trying to figure out a way to make it pay off for me.

 

[unreal.freak]

Yep, that's what all your posts have been espousing as of late: Love

I think it's sad that you seem to have a need to enforce your moral will on other peoples that would rather have nothing to do with you or your god. You know the simply may not believe. With all the crap that is happening on this earth in the name of 'god' I can't blame them.

They simply would like to get on with their life. The would like to love the one they got, kick around with the friends they have, enjoy the life they built and simply be left alone by the likes of you. I know you don't believe it of your self, but you come across as very spiteful and bigoted in your posts (IMO of course).

Im sorry you feel that way. This is a discussion forum and this is the steam vent, by all means call me names or whatever you want. I did make this thead with a "let it all hang out" theme. You can believe the way you wish. I for one like the discussion. No matter how much i dissagree with you or anyone else that has been posting, I find it informing for me to see how peoples mind work. With exception of you i have learned alot about many. With you it always comes back to personal attacks/name calling. I have very thick skin so fire away man.

Alex, i dont feel anyone who is Spanish is singled out in the text i posted. I took 2 years of Spanish in high school, but i didnt retain enough to be social in Hispanic speaking circles. I get most of what is being said, but its being spoken so fast i cant keep up.

I think the manner that it was stated is a bit harsh. The problem i have is with anyone who wants the national language to become Spanish. Thats the only real beef i have.



Peace,
Tommy

 

[MidnightSensi]

Yo soy un gringo, pero, espanol is muy importante. Yo placticaba un poco con la rasa en espanol para estudiar. Para tomar y fumar herb y hablar. Y las chicas... muy bien... la cosa que me gusta mas es panochita ya?

..but I agree English should be the only language taught in schools.

 

[unreal.freak]

Re Article XI: http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html

Article II is most commonly forgotten by right-wingers, who constantly express shock and dismay at those who voice liberal ideas.

The rest I pretty much agree with.

Hey Joe, Your back in the green!!
Welcome back!!

Peace,
Tommy

 

[haraldo]

Hey Joe, Your back in the green!!
Welcome back!!

Peace,
Tommy

Welcome back to GREEN, JOE !!!!!

 

[unreal.freak]

Back from the red....

 

[jinjuku]

Im sorry you feel that way. This is a discussion forum and this is the steam vent, by all means call me names or whatever you want. I did make this thead with a "let it all hang out" theme. You can believe the way you wish. I for one like the discussion. No matter how much i dissagree with you or anyone else that has been posting, I find it informing for me to see how peoples mind work. With exception of you i have learned alot about many. With you it always comes back to personal attacks/name calling. I have very thick skin so fire away man.

Peace,
Tommy

This is what I don't get:

Christianity is supposed to foster love, temperament, understanding, forgiveness, enlightenment, togetherness.

But when I see what you post. When I see the basis for your viewpoints, I see nothing from you that I have been told to expect from the teaching of Jesus Christ.

I have seen closed mindedness in even taking a minute to read any scientific studies on the matter.

You said it: And dont go trying to explain it away with science either.

What opinion should any one reading this thread have of someone that would say such a thing? To actually sit there and basically say: I will stick with the Bible no matter what science is finding out about the matter. That you will not evaluate your own perceptions of other people in light of validated research. It's just astounding.

I understand that certain things may give you the willies. Not saying that it should or shouldn't. But to feel that you have a right to tell others how to live...

 

[unreal.freak]

This is what I don't get:

Christianity is supposed to foster love, temperament, understanding, forgiveness, enlightenment, togetherness.

But when I see what you post. When I see the basis for your viewpoints, I see nothing from you that I have been told to expect from the teaching of Jesus Christ.

I have seen closed mindedness in even taking a minute to read any scientific studies on the matter.

You said it: And dont go trying to explain it away with science either.

What opinion should any one reading this thread have of someone that would say such a thing? To actually sit there and basically say: I will stick with the Bible no matter what science is finding out about the matter. That you will not evaluate your own perceptions of other people in light of validated research. It's just astounding.

I understand that certain things may give you the willies. Not saying that it should or shouldn't. But to feel that you have a right to tell others how to live...

I knew you were still mad from the other post.

who said i didnt read it? just because i didnt change my mind dont mean i didnt read it.

I havent ever told anyone how to live there life....LOL

I still love you man.

Sincerely

 

[Davemcc]

Upon re-reading the original post, I do have an issue with the sentiment of learn English or go back where you came from. It is entirely reasonable to say that the language of the government is English and that people must use English in their interaction with government. But the language of personal interaction in a free society is not subject to the whim of the state.

If that's the goal, look at the actions of Bill 101 in Quebec that legislates the use of French as the language of government AND COMMERCE with stiff fines and language enforcement units to seek out those using other languages in business. It is an entirely repressive and discriminatory piece of legislation that belies Canada's reputation as a free country.

This is to say, if Home Depot wants to put Spanish on their signs, it is their right so long as they file their corporate papers in English. If people want to interact with each other in another language, that is their right also. Otherwise, give up any pretense that the US is a free country. But for practical and functional purposes, the government needs to choose a language to conduct its business and English is the single best language for that purpose.

 

[jinjuku]

I knew you were still mad from the other post.

who said i didnt read it? just because i didnt change my mind dont mean i didnt read it.

I havent ever told anyone how to live there life....LOL

I still love you man.

Sincerely

Tommy,

I am not mad/angry/upset/whatever. I am simply at a loss as to how someone can simply ignore mounting physiological evidence by a scientific community simply due to it being counter to a belief held only in faith. A belief for no other reason than wanting to believe for belief's sake.

It's like people arguing with Copernicus about the world indeed being
the center of the universe when he was able to put forth a theory that spurred an entire branch of science on to prove him correct.

It makes you wonder about the person that would still argue with him.

 

[Alex2507]

These guys might have something to say about that Copernicus guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth_Society

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Hey Joe, Your back in the green!!
Welcome back!!

Peace,
Tommy

Thank you, thank you. Y'all are a great audience! No applause, only money.

 

[highfigh]

I was criticized here once for offering up Article II in an argument. I think it makes perfect sense.

I'm pretty much OK with all of this, even Article XI. But I still don't find it necessary to have kids pray in school or display a cross in courts. Examples why - 1) Islam is a Judeo-Christian based faith that worships the same God of the Old Testament. Islam has strict guidelines for when and how Muslims pray. Telling a Muslim child to pray at a desk in a classroom that is not facing the proper direction is an offense. To single that child out for not praying while others pray in a classroom is a form of discrimination. 2) The Star of David is another perfectly valid symbol related to the worship of the same God of the Old Testament. To ask a Jewish person to submit to the justice of a court that displays the cross is a symbol that the Jewish belief is inherently inferior. Besides, displaying a cross in court really only reflects the Judges bias and preference for one religion over another and hardly inspires confidence in the impartiality of the bench. That's just a couple of examples off the top of my head. Feel free to mention God in as many public places as you want, but avoid references or symbols to a specific religion. The founders did not intend the nation to be Catholic, Baptist or anything else. They were Deists in the most inclusive interpretation of that word and so should the government that they built.

I used to be involved at another forum and very shortly after 9-11, there were a lot of discussions about what kind of person would do that, religion and how things went wrong. I didn't really know much about Islam, at all, and did a lot of reading about it at the time. I stated the fact that Islam is based on the same writings and worships the same God as Jews and Christians, but one guy swore up and down that Islam doesn't worship 'his' God. Apparently, as a person who was/is outraged by what happened, he felt that he was able to decide which God the people of Islam worship and that it was impossible for 'his' God to have allowed this. I posted that the Bible is based on the teachings of Abraham (which it is) and he responded with "Abraham was a coward and an idiot.

I stopped posting to him.

 

[unreal.freak]

Tommy,

I am not mad/angry/upset/whatever. I am simply at a loss as to how someone can simply ignore mounting physiological evidence by a scientific community simply due to it being counter to a belief held only in faith. A belief for no other reason than wanting to believe for belief's sake.

It's like people arguing with Copernicus about the world indeed being
the center of the universe when he was able to put forth a theory that spurred an entire branch of science on to prove him correct.

It makes you wonder about the person that would still argue with him.

I think you are missing my point on that matter. If a person is attracted to the same sex, does he/she have to have sexual relations with the them? I think not. The laws of nature are pretty clear. Male on male or female on female sex goes against nature. We as humans have the option to participate in those activities if we choose. I choose not to do alot of things daily that i would like to....none of them are sexual in nature, but alot of them arent moral or leagal. I could proably find a scientist out there that could trace the things i do not do back to a gene commonly found in other people who think the same way. For the sake of an example, lets say i want to eat all the time 24/7. It isnt healthy or natural for a person to be 500lbs so i restrain from eating the way i would like. Im sure there is scientific studies that can link overeating to genetics. does that make me a 500lb person.....No, only if i eat untill i am 500lbs. This is not the best example but its the first thing i thought of.

So i guess what im saying is that people do have a choice. I believe that God made us with the freedom of choice/free will.

Peace,
Tommy

 

[Joe Schmoe]

If a person is attracted to the same sex, does he/she have to have sexual relations with the them? I think not.

When someone is born gay, their choices are either to have gay sex or not have sex at all. For them, the opposite sex is as much of a turnoff as the same sex is to those of us who are straight. Could you go your whole life without having sex at all? I didn't think so! No, it is really not a choice

 

[jinjuku]

I think you are missing my point on that matter. If a person is attracted to the same sex, does he/she have to have sexual relations with the them? I think not. The laws of nature are pretty clear.

Are you sure you know what you are talking about when you say this? Permutations of all sorts exist in nature. It is itself part of and helps define nature. Nature is by definition about diversity of all types.

Male on male or female on female sex goes against nature. We as humans have the option to participate in those activities if we choose.

Actually it doesn't go against nature. It just simply means that no off spring will be produced. If you had read any of the links that I posted you would have read that prevailing studies are linking to a biological factor vs genetics.

I choose not to do alot of things daily that i would like to....none of them are sexual in nature, but alot of them arent moral or leagal.
I could proably find a scientist out there that could trace the things i do not do back to a gene commonly found in other people who think the same way.

Ah, you said the magic word: MORAL. The thing that you should have some self awareness of is that you want to impose your moral will on others that simply don't see it your way.

Again you need to be careful about your assumptions: Is the factor biological, environmental, conditioned, genetic. They are all different contributing factors to outcomes.

Identical twins look the same, but they have different fingerprints. Why do you suppose that is?

For the sake of an example, lets say i want to eat all the time 24/7. It isnt healthy or natural for a person to be 500lbs so i restrain from eating the way i would like. Im sure there is scientific studies that can link overeating to genetics. does that make me a 500lb person.....No, only if i eat untill i am 500lbs. This is not the best example but its the first thing i thought of.

So i guess what im saying is that people do have a choice. I believe that God made us with the freedom of choice/free will.

Counterpoint is: No one is voting on legislation that will limit the amount and types of food you can eat. No one is voting to impose their value system on you. Why do you feel you need to do the same?

If God made us with freedom of choice/free will: What business of it is yours what people do with what God in his infinite wisdom decided to give them? If God is going to sort it out on judgment day, people have to answer for their 'sins', than what are you up in arms about?

Leave it up to God and leave people practicing their God given free will alone.

 

[unreal.freak]

Ah, you said the magic word: MORAL. The thing that you should have some self awareness of is that you want to impose your moral will on others that simply don't see it your way.


Counterpoint is: No one is voting on legislation that will limit the amount and types of food you can eat. No one is voting to impose their value system on you. Why do you feel you need to do the same?

If God made us with freedom of choice/free will: What business of it is yours what people do with what God in his infinite wisdom decided to give them? If God is going to sort it out on judgment day, people have to answer for their 'sins', than what are you up in arms about?

If your point is accurate then if a person has a biological factor that makes them want to have sex with animals, is that ok to? Is it ok for someone to marry their dog because it makes them happy? The line has to be drawn somewhere. I think the people of the USA are drawing that line at same sex marriage. I also believe it is my right as a US citizen to be able send my kid to public school and not have to worry about them being taught that homosexuality is normal. It isnt normal. Thats what im up in arms about. You can believe otherwise if you like, dont let me impose my will on you

I dont look at homosexuality any different than any other immoral act. Im not singling out homosexuals i feel the same way about other things that havent even been talked about in this forum. There are some that you might even feel the same way about.

Ill go ahead and throw a little of your own medicine at you

Your words imply an underlying bitterness that I can't comprehend - when was the last time you yourself was under the "jack heel of any group of conservative religious zealots who thought their way was the only and better way?' What, specifically has been mandated to you as a direct correlation of supposed "God's will"?

I can't buy beer on Sunday. I am not bitter at all. The way you view me in this is the way I view you. I will leave it at that.

You stick with the Bible, I'll stick with science.

Im only discussing this, you are the one trying to impose your will on someone....lol