Towers or Bookshelves: The debate

C

cfrizz

Senior Audioholic
I'm another fan of Dynaudio. I am also a fan of Polk's LSI series.

Have a listen to each. Keep in mind that both are 4ohm speakers & like lots of power to operate to their full potential.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
I am a fan of Dynaudio also. I was impressed by the Contour line, and the Audience line is good also.

I am not a fan of the LSis. They are good, but not as good as they should be for the price they are asking. For that money there are easily better speakers IMHO.
 
C

cfrizz

Senior Audioholic
I like Dynaudio's Focus line.

There are always better speakers to be had, but for their price point & the sound, LSI's are hard to beat, and hold their own just fine against the competition. IMO.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
The LSI ring tweeter is top notch but I am not a fan of its bass. I wish I could have that ring tweeter in my Veritas.
 
gixxerific

gixxerific

Audioholic
Spkr Bldr - you have pm.

midcow 2 - I have a Denon AVR 2106 100 watts by 7, it recomends 6 ohm loads.

I plan on doing some heavy audtionig. There is 6 - 10 high to ultra high end places around.

Haraldo i will look at the Dyn's I have used them before in car audio with simply amazing results.

Thanks for all the replies everyone. Also thanks for the speaker recomendations. I have been on and off here for just about 3 years so i just keep compiling all the info. But what I really want to hear is why you like floorstanders over bookshelves or vice versa.

OH and i will be getting a SVS sub FOR SURE either now or later.

Thanks again Dono
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
There are three things that determine sound quality:

1) The thing interpreting the sound (your brain - via your ears) ;)

2) The room in which the speakers are being used

3) The thing producing the sound (the speakers - driven by an amplified source signal)

The order in which I've listed those three things is also the order of importance.

The first thing you have to know is: how is your hearing? Most of us have some hearing loss. We all lose some of our hearing sensitivity as we get older, but by no means do we all lose our hearing to an equal degree or in an equal way. Ask you doctor for a referral to get your hearing tested. It's an interesting experience. I like to get my hearing tested every few years or so.

I recently went and got my hearing tested. I'm 27 and I take some care to try and protect my hearing, but the recent test showed that I'm really not hearing much above 16.5 kHz anymore. Furthermore, I have some hearing loss in my right ear, but not my left ear. I had an ear infection in my right ear - it's likely the cause and culprit for my hearing loss in that ear. It's not severe, but I do have some hearing loss in the treble frequencies in my right ear.

Why know this stuff? Because it's all fine and dandy to go on and on about flat frequency response, anechoic frequency response, +/-3dB response, blah, blah, blah - but ultimately, it's my ears that do the listening - not some frequency response graph - and if my ear do not have flat frequency response, I need to know that so that I know why I'm hearing what I'm hearing.

So in my case, there's a good chance I'd prefer speakers with a slightly tipped up high end. I know that I have some hearing loss in the highest frequencies, so I know beforehand that a truly ruler flat speaker isn't going to sound ruler flat to me.

Once the most important factor (your own hearing) is known, it's on the analyzing the room. It's the room that determines the frequency response that actually reaches your ears. The sound may come out of the speakers ruler flat, but once it interacts with the room, what actually reaches your ears is totally different!

There are a number of ways to deal with your room. You can hire a professional to come to your home with some rather expensive test equipment. He or she will take real time measurements and acoustically map your room. This costs a pretty penny though and any time you move anything, it changes all of the measurements! So unless this is a truly dedicated room and you are really prepared to make the investment, hiring a professional is usually beyond the price an average person would want to spend.

On the opposite end of the spectrum are the built in "auto room correction" programs built into receivers. Programs such as Audyssey's MultEQ or Yamaha's YPAO or Pioneer's MCACC. Some of these actually do a pretty decent job, but you are more or less at the mercy of the built in programming.

A new technique that is emerging though is that companies like Auralex and Ready Acoustics are offering real world measurement in the lowest cost form possible. Auralex is about to launch this new service - Ready Acoustics is already doing it. Basically, they send to some test tones and give you some suggestions on what microphone to use. You connect the mic to your laptop, run the test tones and send all the data back to the company. They analyze it and report back to you with an overview of your room's acoustical map and suggestions on how you can improve the acoustics in your room using their acoustic treatment products. I love the idea of this service :)

After you've taken care of the two most important aspects - your own hearing and the room - the speakers you chose to create the sound are almost an after thought.

There's no hard and fast rule as to whether towers are better than bookshelf speakers or vice versa. In most cases, it's really only a matter of how low you want the speakers to be able to play before they cross over to a subwoofer. I am personally in strong agreement with THX in the suggestion that you cross over the speakers to the subwoofer at 80Hz. If you go along with that suggestion, tower speakers are typically not necessary.

Tower speakers can also typically play louder - simply by virtue of having more and/or larger drivers and having more cabinet space for greater air movement and resonance. Most of the benefit of being able to move more air has effect on the mid-bass and bass though, so once again, if you are crossing over to a subwoofer at 80Hz, it makes much less difference. A good portion of the mid-bass though is still handled by the speaker. In a very large room, a bookshelf speaker may struggle to reproduce the 80Hz - 300Hz range with enough loudness for the room size. In that case, a tower speaker would likely be the better choice.

So once again, it is the room's size that determines the choice of speaker. Regardless of the room's size, I would recommend using a subwoofer. Bass frequencies are the most prone to drastically altered frequency response due to interactions with the room. In my opinion, it is vital to be able to position what ever speaker is producing the bass in the position that is closest to ideal. It is typically impossible to accomplish this goal if you are running the main speakers "full range". You are bound by the desire for a good soundstand and imaging to position the speakers in a certain location at the front of the room. But this is typically not the best position for bass response. So instead, it is best to seperate the bass and allow it to be produced by a subwoofer that can be positioned in the ideal location while the main speakers remain in the best position for soundstage and imaging.

Best of luck!
 
gixxerific

gixxerific

Audioholic
FirstReflection, wait hold on, what is that high pitched noise. SHHH everyone.........

Oh wait that is my ears. Yeah I have some hearing loss and almost permanent background noise. Did I mention I have been huge into car audio for... well forever. 1000+ watts in a vehicle will do that, hearing loss that is. Oh yeah, I am a bricklayer, have you ever used a brick saw, they are frickin loud.

As said before I will be using a sub no matter which route I go, remember the car audio part?!
If my neighbors don't like the boom boom perhaps I can do something to help them like getting a huge *** amp to help drive the boom boom.;)

I do know a lot about audio and how it works, though there is still a lot I'm not sure of. Audio is so damn technical. I will more than likely get towers just seeing if by some unseen chance I can be totally 180'd into wanting bookshelver's.

Thing is I'm looking for music mor than HT. Which I why I'm leaning towards Towers. I am 39 yrs old which could aslo be a part of it. Back in the day who ever heard of a good pounding small speaker, oh wait there weren't actual "Subs" at that time. But than again a set of BShelves with a sub might just do my ears justice. I will have to do some auditoning here soon to see how the BS's do against the FStanders.

All I know is I have LOVED music scince I was about 8 years old thanks to my cousin, who had the most extensive album collection I have ever seen, well into the 1000,s, and yes I mean LP's.:p

Okay I'm ranting so until later: Thanks Dono

P.s. I have a weird room that this will go into. It is basicaly a small\med room. Guessing 15' deep by 20' wide. This room opens up to the right with a foyer and to the back with a dining room that opens to it's right to the kitchen. Vaulted ceilngs as well. So the "Audio Seen" Space is much greater than the listening room measurements. Oh yeah add in more than likey terrible acoustics. But hey, what are you gonna do.
 
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DD66000

DD66000

Senior Audioholic
As said before I will be using a sub no matter which route I go, remember the car audio part?!


Thing is I'm looking for music mor than HT. Which I why I'm leaning towards Towers. I am 39 yrs old which could aslo be a part of it. Back in the day who ever heard of a good pounding small speaker, oh wait there weren't actual "Subs" at that time. But than again a set of BShelves with a sub might just do my ears justice. I will have to do some auditoning here soon to see how the BS's do against the FStanders.
Actually, there have been subs since '77. Its only been since the populatity of HT that there now dozens and dozen to choose from.

here was the first 2.1 system, JBL L212 (the 3 in front)

 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
:)

For that price you need to go audition. There are many, many good speakers in that price range and you need to find speakers that sound good too YOU.

Also, you need to decided how important low notes are too you and whether or not you need a sub.

Also, room size is another consideration. You should conectrate on speakers first what what AVR or pre=pro amp will you be driving the speakers with. Do you already have or is that another purchase item in another budget ?
I agree with most of this post, with the exception of the audition part. If you mean that he should audition them at a store, I disagree. The only way to not be disapointed is to be able to take them home and listen to them in the planned location. Ideally, the speakers will have been broken in.

I would also look into doing some acoustical treatment of the listening area. Even minor things like carpeting, rugs, drapes and panels that break up or absorb primary reflections will be a big help if someone is serious about how their system and music sound.
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I am a fan of Dynaudio also. I was impressed by the Contour line, and the Audience line is good also.

I am not a fan of the LSis. They are good, but not as good as they should be for the price they are asking. For that money there are easily better speakers IMHO.
The Audience line is history and has been replaced by the Excite line. 6 Ohm impedance instead of 4 and designed specifically so minimize issues when powered by amps and receivers that see 4 Ohms as a difficult load.
 
haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Warlord
Actually, there have been subs since '77. Its only been since the populatity of HT that there now dozens and dozen to choose from.

here was the first 2.1 system, JBL L212 (the 3 in front)

That's actually a very nice looking system :cool:
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Oh yeah, I am a bricklayer, have you ever used a brick saw, they are frickin loud.
Do you use hearing protection? If not, why not? OSHA requires is in certain situations and if you want your hearing to be anything other than crappy later in life, you should get some ear plugs.
 
haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Warlord
Most important when choosing speakers, use time and don't rush a choice

And, make sure you can try speakers with equipment that yo're familiar with, must be able to audition at home ......
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
"Originally Posted by DD66000 View Post
Actually, there have been subs since '77. Its only been since the populatity of HT that there now dozens and dozen to choose from."

Subwoofers have existed since the beginning of high end audio and music amplification, which would be the 1940s or 1950s. They weren't used in home systems until later but it was definitely pre-'77. I started working in consumer audio in early '78 and they were around for years before that.
 
DD66000

DD66000

Senior Audioholic
That's actually a very nice looking system :cool:
The L212 was JBL's top of the line consumer system for about 6 or 7 years, $2K in '77 $
And the bases can be easily removed to mount the boxes on-wall. I have four wall mounted , two mounted on top of 15" subs and one for a center. Makes for a very good music/HT system.
 
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H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Haraldo- do you know anyone who went to college in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, in the 1980s? First name is Arnie. I believe he's from Bergen.
 
gixxerific

gixxerific

Audioholic
Do you use hearing protection? If not, why not? OSHA requires is in certain situations and if you want your hearing to be anything other than crappy later in life, you should get some ear plugs.
Are you with OSHA cuz' I always wear ear protection............. Wait what did you say, could you repeat that.

As far as subs back in the day I honestly can't remember them much, at least not like today where they are everywhere.
 
DD66000

DD66000

Senior Audioholic
As far as subs back in the day I honestly can't remember them much, at least not like today where they are everywhere.
Like I said, many more today. In fact I never saw another L212 system, besides the one I bought in '79, until I bought my first computer in '98 and then discovered ebay and both parts and full L212 systems for sale. It was probably '89 before I saw another sub.
 
Davemcc

Davemcc

Audioholic Spartan
I am also a fan of Dynaudio.

Overall, I prefer bookshelf speakers to towers. With no scientific backing, I going to go ahead and say I find most towers have too much resonance in the midrange for my taste and it's likely caused by the cabinet itself. Bookshelf speakers with their much smaller cabinet area are less prone to these resonances, especially the higher end speakers.
 
gixxerific

gixxerific

Audioholic
Like I said, many more today. In fact I never saw another L212 system, besides the one I bought in '79, until I bought my first computer in '98 and then discovered ebay and both parts and full L212 systems for sale. It was probably '89 before I saw another sub.

I hear ya'. I hope you don't think I was calling you out or anything. I just don't remember subs, just big *** towers. But than I was usually too drugged up to remember much anyways.:eek::D
 
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