HDMI to Component Video for upscaling?

The Dali

The Dali

Audioholic
My understanding is that most (if not all) standard definition DVDs cannot be upscaled using a BluRay or HD DVD player using component video cables. I have an older 1080i HDTV (2002 Sony XBR) that only has component inputs - no HDMI or DVI. Everytime I use my HD DVD player with standard definition DVDs it produces the video at 480p. Is there a way to trick the system into upscaling by using a HDMI (output) to Component video (input into TV) cable? Is there such a thing?

I saw a weird hybrid on ebay and wondered if that would work. Any thoughts?
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Most upscaling devices I've encountered only go one way: Up. That is to say they will Upscale/upconvert from an analog format into a digital HDMI format. I've yet to see onethat will upscale/convert to a component output.

Going from HDMI to component is asking a device to a) downscale/downconvert and/or b) convert a digital signal to an analog signal.

Simple answer: it ain't gonna happen.

If you want to avail yourself of upscaling/upconversion or 1080p, you're going to need a monitor that can handle a HDMI input (and 1080p)
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
I do believe there are devices that will do the conversion, but we are talking thousands of dollars - in other words, as much as a new TV, so probably not worth it. Can it be done? Probably. Is it going to be cost effective? Nope.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
The other issue is that HDCP business. Anything your player puts out in HDMI will require that HDCP handshake that your non-HDMI TV won't be able to produce so again, no go.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
My understanding is that most (if not all) standard definition DVDs cannot be upscaled using a BluRay or HD DVD player using component video cables. I have an older 1080i HDTV (2002 Sony XBR) that only has component inputs - no HDMI or DVI. Everytime I use my HD DVD player with standard definition DVDs it produces the video at 480p. Is there a way to trick the system into upscaling by using a HDMI (output) to Component video (input into TV) cable? Is there such a thing?

I saw a weird hybrid on ebay and wondered if that would work. Any thoughts?
That would be an illegal conversion, forbidden by the rules of the HDCP codes.
 
The Dali

The Dali

Audioholic
Interesting... so this cable (HDMI on one end and component video and 2 audio on the other) wouldn't carry the signal? It isn't a big deal overall, but I would like to be able to upconvert on this TV, if possible.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Interesting... so this cable (HDMI on one end and component video and 2 audio on the other) wouldn't carry the signal? It isn't a big deal overall, but I would like to be able to upconvert on this TV, if possible.
No, it would not carry the signal. For one thing HDMI is digital and Component cables are analog, so you can't make any simple cable carry the signal. There would have to be a digital to analog conversion. That conversion is now illegal.
Then there is the issue of the HDCP handshakes. HDMI now has to be a two way connection.

The current regs now require, that all analog outputs including component down convert to 480i at all analog outputs. So the only way current consumer products can transmit HD video is via HDMI. You thought it was still a free county didn't you? Wrong! Any HD video display not having an HDMI input has to go to the bone yard.
 
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
i bet your display does a descent job with a 480 i/p signal;)

edit your sony is a dlp??
 
Last edited:
K

KurtBJC

Audioholic
i bet your display does a descent job with a 480 i/p signal;)
Hey, The Dali: bandphan is right. You've got nothing to worry about.

"Upscaling" is exactly what your display does with an incoming 480p signal. There's no reason to upscale at the player when your display probably has a better upscaling circuit than most players do anyhow. This is one (just one; there are others) reason why this whole "upscaling DVD player" thing is basically a pile of nonsense. The signal will be upscaled; using an upscaling player just changes WHERE it's upscaled, not whether.

I own several of these players, which I use primarily to test HDMI inputs at various resolutions (they're very handy for that!), but my own experience is that video always looks best when fed out of the player at its original native 480p.

Kurt
Blue Jeans Cable
 
The Dali

The Dali

Audioholic
Yes, my TV is a 65" Sony XBR DLP unit with 1080i resolution. My TV in the basement broke about 6 months ago and I needed something for the time being and didn't want to spend mega bucks at the time. Found this TV on Ebay for $350! The thing is amazing, but it is really big - a HUGE footprint. I think people who bought the early big screen HD TVs are looking to unload them for the smaller, slimmer LCD and Plasma sets so they cut their ties with these large TVs for a song. $350?!?! It was built in 2002 and I believe it retailed for $6000 or so. I use in my finished basement, so space isn't an issue.

The only downside is that it only has component video input.

But, you are correct, images look extremely good even at 480p. I have a Toshiba HDDVD player and can get 1080i through that, and it doesn't look a heck of lot better than 480p based on my limited use (about 3 movies so far).

So, is the upscaling just marketing fluff? That is the first I've heard of it, but I do find it hard to believe that a DVD player can make a standard DVD of "Fletch" look any better than the original given the limitations of the original recording devices.
 
The Dali

The Dali

Audioholic
The current regs now require, that all analog outputs including component down convert to 480i at all analog outputs. So the only way current consumer products can transmit HD video is via HDMI. You thought it was still a free county didn't you? Wrong! Any HD video display not having an HDMI input has to go to the bone yard.
Well, I definitely think the HDMI requirement is lame for upconverting, but I can view in 480p, not 480i. Does DVI still allow HD signals?

I disagree with the "boneyard" comment since I can use an HD or BluRay (older) with component and get 1080i. But, I agree with the gist of your statement.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
I'm getting up to 1080i over component from my Motorola/Comcast HD cable box as well.
 
K

KurtBJC

Audioholic
So, is the upscaling just marketing fluff? That is the first I've heard of it, but I do find it hard to believe that a DVD player can make a standard DVD of "Fletch" look any better than the original given the limitations of the original recording devices.
It's somewhat fluffy, as marketing fluff goes. The thing to understand is that home video equipment always is going to rescale images to the native resolution of your display; if it didn't, you'd wind up with a tiny 480-line picture in the middle (or the corner) of your 1080-line display. If it didn't, you'd wind up with material with non-square pixels in the recording being rendered incorrectly on displays with square pixels, and vice versa. It would all be a mess, and rescaling (up or down, as the source and display demand) is what fixes that.

Now, all rescaling is not equal. A really good job of upscaling a 480p signal to 1080p, for example, is going to involve building the added lines in in such a way as to prevent a lot of stair-stepping in the image, where a quick-and-dirty upscale might not do that. A bad job of scaling may introduce artifacts that a better job would not. But to say that something is "upscaled" in itself says nothing other than that the image has been rescaled--it doesn't tell us whether the job has been done well. Consider, along similar lines, deinterlacing--I always liked DVD players with the Faroudja deinterlacing chip because they simply did a better job, and a bit of time with two DVD players (one Faroudja, one not) and a pair of identical DVDs, looking at individual frames, can demonstrate that very plainly.

What upscaling will not do--whether it is done well, poorly, or anywhere in between--is put information back into a recording that didn't make it into the recording in the first place. When a DVD is mastered, there are 480 lines; no upscale can actually recover the resolution that was lost when the DVD was made from the original film. At best, upscaling simply does a really good job of preventing you from being aware of the lower resolution of the original--by limiting stairstepping and scaling artifacts, that sort of thing.

I am certain there are exceptions to what I'm about to say; but in my experience, it has always been the case that the scaling circuits in my displays have done a better job than the scaling circuits in my DVD players. Consequently, the picture doesn't merely look "just as good" coming out of the player at 480p as it would coming out 1080p--it actually looks BETTER (on the equipment I have used) coming out of the player at 480p (though, admittedly, the differences are subtle and unless you like to spend a lot of time staring at freeze-frame images, sometimes it's just about identical).

Bear in mind, too, that one problem with upscaling at the player is that the display may need to rescale again. For example, if you've got a plasma with a 768 line panel, and you play a 480-line DVD with its output at 1080 lines, you're rescaling twice rather than once, and this is never a good thing. Your player takes the DVD, rescales it to 1080 lines, and sends it to your display, which now rescales that signal back down to 768. Scaling twice like this is NEVER going to be as good as simply sending the signal at 480 lines and letting the display scale it once.

What I have learned about the consumer a/v market is that we are all, unfortunately, prone to be a bit resolution-happy. We assume that more lines means better picture; but whether more lines means better picture depends entirely on how those lines got there.

Kurt
Blue Jeans Cable
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
It's somewhat fluffy, as marketing fluff goes. The thing to understand is that home video equipment always is going to rescale images to the native resolution of your display; if it didn't, you'd wind up with a tiny 480-line picture in the middle (or the corner) of your 1080-line display. If it didn't, you'd wind up with material with non-square pixels in the recording being rendered incorrectly on displays with square pixels, and vice versa. It would all be a mess, and rescaling (up or down, as the source and display demand) is what fixes that.

Now, all rescaling is not equal. A really good job of upscaling a 480p signal to 1080p, for example, is going to involve building the added lines in in such a way as to prevent a lot of stair-stepping in the image, where a quick-and-dirty upscale might not do that. A bad job of scaling may introduce artifacts that a better job would not. But to say that something is "upscaled" in itself says nothing other than that the image has been rescaled--it doesn't tell us whether the job has been done well. Consider, along similar lines, deinterlacing--I always liked DVD players with the Faroudja deinterlacing chip because they simply did a better job, and a bit of time with two DVD players (one Faroudja, one not) and a pair of identical DVDs, looking at individual frames, can demonstrate that very plainly.

What upscaling will not do--whether it is done well, poorly, or anywhere in between--is put information back into a recording that didn't make it into the recording in the first place. When a DVD is mastered, there are 480 lines; no upscale can actually recover the resolution that was lost when the DVD was made from the original film. At best, upscaling simply does a really good job of preventing you from being aware of the lower resolution of the original--by limiting stairstepping and scaling artifacts, that sort of thing.

I am certain there are exceptions to what I'm about to say; but in my experience, it has always been the case that the scaling circuits in my displays have done a better job than the scaling circuits in my DVD players. Consequently, the picture doesn't merely look "just as good" coming out of the player at 480p as it would coming out 1080p--it actually looks BETTER (on the equipment I have used) coming out of the player at 480p (though, admittedly, the differences are subtle and unless you like to spend a lot of time staring at freeze-frame images, sometimes it's just about identical).

Bear in mind, too, that one problem with upscaling at the player is that the display may need to rescale again. For example, if you've got a plasma with a 768 line panel, and you play a 480-line DVD with its output at 1080 lines, you're rescaling twice rather than once, and this is never a good thing. Your player takes the DVD, rescales it to 1080 lines, and sends it to your display, which now rescales that signal back down to 768. Scaling twice like this is NEVER going to be as good as simply sending the signal at 480 lines and letting the display scale it once.

What I have learned about the consumer a/v market is that we are all, unfortunately, prone to be a bit resolution-happy. We assume that more lines means better picture; but whether more lines means better picture depends entirely on how those lines got there.

Kurt
Blue Jeans Cable
I could not agree more. I only upscale at the display. That works out just fine. My Fujitsu monitor does a fine job and I leave it at that.
 
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