Non-Identical Dual Subwoofer Question

strube

strube

Audioholic Field Marshall
Since I have always been a single sub guy, I have a question.

I have the potential to be given a Paradigm PS-1200 subwoofer, and I already have a Paradigm PS-1000. If I wanted to go with a dual subwoofer setup, would it be a bad move to have these two? They are similar but not identical (same amp, same version, etc.); I think the differences are limited to box size and driver size.

Obviously, if this is a bad move, I will probably use the PS-1200 and use the PS-1000 elsewhere.

Thanks!
 
strube

strube

Audioholic Field Marshall
I have read that article a few times prior to this post (I am not one to ask questions before my own research), but their example of what not to do is one of extremes, a nice 15" sub with a crappy 6" sub.

...or ones of similar output level and design.
Essentially, I am wondering if the subs of my case are similar enough.

Always select two well designed subwoofers (preferably the same) that are each in their own capable of filling your theater room with ample bass without bottoming out or running out of gas.
I think it is safe to say both subs are well designed and I am certain they are both capable of full, accurate bass for my room. I may be reading to much into it, (and the opinions I am looking for may be different on this as they may be on any audio subject) but by using the word "preferably," I am wondering if it is possible to achieve a good dual subwoofer setup with similar subs, not just identical ones.
 
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Matt34

Matt34

Moderator
I think what the article says still applies to an extent, your going to be limited by the lesser sub. You'll gain headroom but the quaility will not be improved.

Intergrating two identical subs properly is a difficult task to get right in most rooms, adding another varible such mismatched subs with different FR makes it really tough.

Let's say for instance the PS-1000 is starts to drop off at 25hz and the PS-1200 at 20hz. The PS-1000 will start distorting before the PS-1200 does which negates it's ablilty to reach lower by introducing audible distortion.
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
Here is how I would do it:

Utilize the 10" sub from 80hz-100hz down to around 40hz and run the 12" from 40hz and down. You can place them together in the same location. It would be like a two way subwoofer. :) This way you are utilizing the subs where they are probably best suited for response. It will take some time to have things level matched accordingly to have a smooth transition.

Other than that, I would not recommend using two non-identical subs. One will give up before the other and detract from the experience.
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
I think what the article says still applies to an extent, your going to be limited by the lesser sub. You'll gain headroom but the quaility will not be improved.

Intergrating two identical subs properly is a difficult task to get right in most rooms, adding another varible such mismatched subs with different FR makes it really tough.

Let's say for instance the PS-1000 is starts to drop off at 25hz and the PS-1200 at 20hz. The PS-1000 will start distorting before the PS-1200 does which negates it's ablilty to reach lower by introducing audible distortion.
Okay, I'm going to show off my ignorance again...because this doesn't ring true to my ears. (You and Gene can come around later a smack me around a little. :eek:) Certainly identical subwoofers are ideal in multiple setups. Agreed. In significantly different subs, there is undoubtedly a notable and easily recognized difference in output qualities and capabilities. But that is not truely the case in the OP's situation. These are relatively similar subs.

Gene's article states concerns about mismatched subs phase and amplitude issues. Not much of a problem with these two subs. Phase and amplitude can be individually set and matched (as with any identical multiple sub setup this can be an issue). And the same "mismatch" argument can hold true regarding resonance cancellations and standing waves in non-co-located identical subs.

Secondly, as a sub begins to distort at its lower levels of reach, what is the difference between these subs' F3 point? .... 5 Hz? I think that is likely an insignificant disparity, especially in an HT presentation. So the 1200 will limited to the 1000's quality performance level a little bit but the net headroom gain seems worthy of the addition.

Again, the OP's question raises issues of ideal vs. acceptable audio setups. There is a shade of grey here that seems worth his trial. And the price is absolutely right...it's free he states. I say "Try it!"

EDIT: After posting I saw Annunaki had just posted. It's a fine idea and suggests the best use of both subs.
 
walter duque

walter duque

Audioholic Samurai
Since I have always been a single sub guy, I have a question.

I have the potential to be given a Paradigm PS-1200 subwoofer, and I already have a Paradigm PS-1000. If I wanted to go with a dual subwoofer setup, would it be a bad move to have these two? They are similar but not identical (same amp, same version, etc.); I think the differences are limited to box size and driver size.

Obviously, if this is a bad move, I will probably use the PS-1200 and use the PS-1000 elsewhere.

Thanks!
For the front I use a 1000 watt 12" with 12" passive radiator and for the rear a 12" 400 watt downfiring and it seems to work just fine, maybe if you put it on papper I should'nt, but it does sound good.
 
strube

strube

Audioholic Field Marshall
I believe the differences in the specs for the low frequency extension is 22 Hz for the PS1000 vs. 21 Hz for the PS1200.
 
Matt34

Matt34

Moderator
Here is how I would do it:

Utilize the 10" sub from 80hz-100hz down to around 40hz and run the 12" from 40hz and down. You can place them together in the same location. It would be like a two way subwoofer. :) This way you are utilizing the subs where they are probably best suited for response. It will take some time to have things level matched accordingly to have a smooth transition.

Other than that, I would not recommend using two non-identical subs. One will give up before the other and detract from the experience.
Okay, I'm going to show off my ignorance again...because this doesn't ring true to my ears. (You and Gene can come around later a smack me around a little. :eek:) Certainly identical subwoofers are ideal in multiple setups. Agreed. In significantly different subs, there is undoubtedly a notable and easily recognized difference in output qualities and capabilities. But that is not truely the case in the OP's situation. These are relatively similar subs.

Gene's article states concerns about mismatched subs phase and amplitude issues. Not much of a problem with these two subs. Phase and amplitude can be individually set and matched (as with any identical multiple sub setup this can be an issue). And the same "mismatch" argument can hold true regarding resonance cancellations and standing waves in non-co-located identical subs.

Secondly, as a sub begins to distort at its lower levels of reach, what is the difference between these subs' F3 point? .... 5 Hz? I think that is likely an insignificant disparity, especially in an HT presentation. So the 1200 will limited to the 1000's quality performance level a little bit but the net headroom gain seems worthy of the addition.

Again, the OP's question raises issues of ideal vs. acceptable audio setups. There is a shade of grey here that seems worth his trial. And the price is absolutely right...it's free he states. I say "Try it!"

EDIT: After posting I saw Annunaki had just posted. It's a fine idea and suggests the best use of both subs.

I'm sure it will work but we are Audioholics afterall.;)

I think Annunaki's idea used in conjunction with a DCX 2496 will extract the best performance using both subs.
 
walter duque

walter duque

Audioholic Samurai
Matt34

Great idea a two way sub, why did'nt I think of that?
 
strube

strube

Audioholic Field Marshall
But at what output level for each? That is the key.
Yeah... I did not locate that important piece of information. :D



I think Annunaki's idea used in conjunction with a DCX 2496 will extract the best performance using both subs.
I am liking this idea of a 2 way sub. I was just about to ask what crossover would be good for such a task. Thanks!
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
Theoretically, he will net double the previous output of the 1000. ;) ...if used merely as a second sub.
Actually if the 1000 is good to 22hz but at 84db and the 1200 is good to 21hz but at 92db the gain realized will not be all that significant. For the +/-3db frequency band, yes, I agree with you, but not at the lower frequency limits of the sub(s) in question.
 
Warpdrv

Warpdrv

Audioholic Ninja
I think those particular subs together would be close enough to not make a large enough difference. They might possibly just enforce each other quite well...

One of the main things to worry about is not to mix ported with sealed....


I would say try it, and if you don't care for it, then sell the 10"
 
Gimpy Ric

Gimpy Ric

Moderator
Here is how I would do it:

Utilize the 10" sub from 80hz-100hz down to around 40hz and run the 12" from 40hz and down. You can place them together in the same location. It would be like a two way subwoofer. :) This way you are utilizing the subs where they are probably best suited for response. It will take some time to have things level matched accordingly to have a smooth transition.

Other than that, I would not recommend using two non-identical subs. One will give up before the other and detract from the experience.
This what I did with my Hsu research MBM-12 and VTF-3 HO Turbo. The MBM-12 only goes down to 50 Hz. by design, and there I had my much larger VTF-3 HO Turbo take over down to 16 Hz. Except I had the MBM-12 right at near field seating, and the big sub in the far field.

Now sheep got his panties in a wad as usual and called it a stupid idea, but thats just sheep for ya.

Ric
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
Actually if the 1000 is good to 22hz but at 84db and the 1200 is good to 21hz but at 92db the gain realized will not be all that significant. For the +/-3db frequency band, yes, I agree with you, but not at the lower frequency limits of the sub(s) in question.
Absolutely agreed. He (only) gets an additional 84db at 22 Hz from the 1200 (if set up correctly).

And since he is being given the 1200 (lucky cuss), it turns into the fun and free exercise in learning how to integrate multiple subs! ;)
 
I

ironmike86

Audioholic Intern
I think those particular subs together would be close enough to not make a large enough difference. They might possibly just enforce each other quite well...

One of the main things to worry about is not to mix ported with sealed....


I would say try it, and if you don't care for it, then sell the 10"
Exactly try it. Especially if collated I doubt you can tell them apart as long as your not pushing the output
 
Davemcc

Davemcc

Audioholic Spartan
Since the new sub is better than the old sub, there is nothing to lose. Especially when it's free. Personally, I loved the experience of having both my Hsu STF-3 and SVS PB12-Plus running together in opposite corners.
 
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