What is a high current receiver?

[mnatiq]

i own both a HK AVR 354 and a Pioneer VSX-9130txh. the thing is they are both hooked up the the same type of speakers(2xpolk rtia7 and hkts14 5.1 system, i have two sets of all the speakers) in all most identical rooms. the thing is that the hk is high current and rated at 75 watts per channel at 8 ohms 20Hz-20kHz where the pioneer is 110 watts per channel at 8 ohms 20Hz-20kHz. i played master and commander and AC/DC black ice on both receivers and identical PS3's and the same rocketfish cables and wait for it wait for it....... the HK sounded way nicer and fuller and louder. i also used True RTA audio analyzing software with a condenser mic and the range and Mv provided by the HK were around 30-40% better. more bass more tweeting more everthing.


so guys why is that. does high current make such a big difference?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

2 words: Level Matched.

Unless all the channels are level-matched, you can't say much.

 

[annunaki]

Were the sound modes the same? Is there any Eqing of the signal? Have you done a DBT when listening to prove one was better than the other?

 

[rnatalli]

"High Current" is a way to take more money out of your pocket. Conduct a DBT and match all levels and you'll find you can't tell the difference between the two receivers in question.

 

[TLS Guy]

"High Current" is a way to take more money out of your pocket. Conduct a DBT and match all levels and you'll find you can't tell the difference between the two receivers in question.

If his speakers have a falling impedance and adverse phase angle, then he can likely tell a difference. It is highly probable that the Pioneer delivers only 55 watts to his speakers, where as the HK delivers 150 watts. How can this be. Well if the Pioneer drops voltage as the impedance drops, and the HK keeps voltage constant as the impedance drops then that is what will happen. That is what high current capability is all about.

Most speakers are actually four ohm no matter how the manufacturer describes it. If it is properly diffraction compensated it will be four ohm to all intense and purposes. Amps that drop their voltage into falling impedance with frequency, especially when the phase angles are adverse, are actually not very useful driving real world loudspeaker loads.

 

[mnatiq]

so this is what i did!

okay went in to both receivers and set everything to 0 dB. distance is all at 0 feet. the equalizers have been reset to neutral. and did everything again, and the HK comes on top again, but this time there is a much bigger difference. the only thing that i can now notice is that the sound from both receivers is mild or empty. and the HK doesnt provide as much bass but much much more than the pioneer. so i decided on selling the pioneer and getting a denon or another HK? please tell me what you guys think and what else should i try?

 

[fmw]

okay went in to both receivers and set everything to 0 dB. distance is all at 0 feet. the equalizers have been reset to neutral. and did everything again, and the HK comes on top again, but this time there is a much bigger difference. the only thing that i can now notice is that the sound from both receivers is mild or empty. and the HK doesnt provide as much bass but much much more than the pioneer. so i decided on selling the pioneer and getting a denon or another HK? please tell me what you guys think and what else should i try?

At this point, there isn't a shred of objectivity in your testing. You may want to read up on bias controlled and double blind testing. Level matching is done with a volt meter, not a volume knob. If you know which unit is which when you listen, then all bets are off. A/V receivers have built in equalizers. So no two will sound alike after the equalization is in play. I could go on for hours. Objective listening tests are complicated and time consuming. I've done hundreds of them. I'm not suggesting what you hear or don't hear. I'm just suggesting that your testing method won't produce a meaningful result.

Perhaps your best bet would be to use the HK since you like it better. No need to complicate your life.

 

[TLS Guy]

At this point, there isn't a shred of objectivity in your testing. You may want to read up on bias controlled and double blind testing. Level matching is done with a volt meter, not a volume knob. If you know which unit is which when you listen, then all bets are off. A/V receivers have built in equalizers. So no two will sound alike after the equalization is in play. I could go on for hours. Objective listening tests are complicated and time consuming. I've done hundreds of them. I'm not suggesting what you hear or don't hear. I'm just suggesting that your testing method won't produce a meaningful result.

Perhaps your best bet would be to use the HK since you like it better. No need to complicate your life.

I would change your speakers. That whole series is known to be bass shy and a very difficult load. Your speakers are actually 4 ohm. 8 ohm nominal is meaningless. They are particularly bass shy above 100 Hz where bass is actually perceived.

I would go and audition some other speakers before changing electronics. You have two receivers already and are still not happy with the sound.

I would make a strong recommendation for speaker change rather than buying another receiver.

 

[WmAx]

I also recommend changing out the speakers. Polk is overall, a producer of absolutely average speakers for absolutely average prices.

The Infinity Primus line is an excellent budget line to consider, however. Infnity invests far more resources into engineering a speaker that stands above most of it's similarly priced competition. This is not me repeating some marketing bull_hit, but simple fact. They designed the Primus line using Dr. Floyd Toole's and Sean Olive's extensive perceptual research - and applied it the best they could within the budget constraints allowed for the price point of the product. In addition, before any thing was produced and put on the market, Infinity conducted massive scale double blinded tests with people comparing the Primus prototypes to all of their primary competitor products. If you want to see the result of the research applied to near it's fullest extent and with a high budget, refer to the Revel Salon 2 - Revel is the same company as Infinity in reality.

-Chris

 

[davidtwotrees]

"High Current" is a way to take more money out of your pocket. .

My Parasound High Current Amplifiers (HCA series) give me a liquid midrange and eliminate that pesky bloated bass. With the right cables and an upgraded power cord, they sound perfect.

 

[Alex2507]

Level matching is done with a volt meter, not a volume knob.

I was going to suggest level matching was done with a volume knob, channel adjustment controls and an SPL meter. Let's say the volume knob gets set to -15 and the channel adjustments get set to where every channel produces 70 dB on an SPL meter. The volt meter business is out of my league. It sounds like the OP might need some pointers on getting the speakers of one system level matched and then level matching a second system to the first one.

I think rec'r comparisons might be best accomplished by comparing bench tests. At my level the bench tests are a kind of wizardry that I'm unlikely to ever reproduce at home. DBT'ing is something that I really don't think I'm ever going to encounter in my life time. Even comparative listening is not the easiest thing in the world to do with the elapsed time involved in switching gear over and if it's in a different room or the speakers are in a different position then the comparison just isn't fair.

 

[bandphan]

id assume that someone that is using true rta, would know what level matching is The question was asked if eq was applied>?????

 

[Alex2507]

okay went in to both receivers and set everything to 0 dB. distance is all at 0 feet.

id assume that someone that is using true rta, would know what level matching is

I'm sure that the OP could use some help with this.

I mean that in the best way. I'm no grand poo-bah when it comes to this stuff. When I first got to Audioholics there were some basic things that members helped me with and I'm still getting my mind around basic things.

 

[bandphan]

I'm sure that the OP could use some help with this.

I mean that in the best way. I'm no grand poo-bah when it comes to this stuff. When I first got to Audioholics there were some basic things that members helped me with and I'm still getting my mind around basic things.

I agree, and think your first reply was well put, im just trying to get a lil bit more info and backround

 

[rnatalli]

To the OP: HK and Pioneer both make fine products. If you're convinced the HK sounds better, just go with it. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[mtrycrafts]

With the right cables and an upgraded power cord, they sound perfect.

Then you are done upgrading! At least the amps

 

[mtrycrafts]

so guys why is that. does high current make such a big difference?

At 8 Ohms and 75 watts, it can only deliver so much current, period. And, it is not high.
What is that receiver rated for at 4 Ohms? If it is not rated, then, it is also not high current into 8 Ohms. Simple. Even if it is, it can only deliver the current the power rating demands.
Now, until HK does its tests with other than resistive loads, one will never know how good their power supply really is. Dr. David Rich, now the tech director at T$Sound, created what is know as the power cubed method, that does test the amps to + and - 60 deg phase shift and down to 1 ohms. But I bet HK didn't ask him to test their amps.

So, in the end, it is not a high current amp unless there is objective proof or it.

As to your perceptions, it can be very unreliable and biased

So, as others have stated, unless you level match to 0.1dB, and bias controlled, any ones imagination what happened.

 

[wire]

At 8 Ohms and 75 watts, it can only deliver so much current, period. And, it is not high.
What is that receiver rated for at 4 Ohms? If it is not rated, then, it is also not high current into 8 Ohms. Simple. Even if it is, it can only deliver the current the power rating demands.
Now, until HK does its tests with other than resistive loads, one will never know how good their power supply really is. Dr. David Rich, now the tech director at T$Sound, created what is know as the power cubed method, that does test the amps to + and - 60 deg phase shift and down to 1 ohms. But I bet HK didn't ask him to test their amps.

So, in the end, it is not a high current amp unless there is objective proof or it.

As to your perceptions, it can be very unreliable and biased

So, as others have stated, unless you level match to 0.1dB, and bias controlled, any ones imagination what happened.

I agree
The high current kicks in @ 4ohms and lower , if the amp can do it . Most recievers can't do it . Your going to challange most Power Amps with ribbon style speaks .
Don't worry if you like the Sound of H/K , go with it and enjoy . Im sure the H/K goes down to 4 ohm loads . Also don't worry about rms ratings in most lower to midrange recievers .

 

[Alex2507]

Here's an article from our very own Audioholics A/V University that talks about the high current rating:

http://www.audioholics.com/education/amplifier-technology/the-high-instantaneous-current-spec

 

[fmw]

My Parasound High Current Amplifiers (HCA series) give me a liquid midrange

With any kind of luck that midrange doesn't leak on the floor and damage anything.