Here we go: Hsu, SVS, Outlaw......

[Affejunge]

Okay, I have done the searches, I have contacted the manufacturers, I have scoured the forums...I have narrowed it down.

I am looking for a < $600 sub to replace my JBL E250P. Now, before you laugh about my current sub, let me tell you I think it is "okay". That is, it puts the bass out and I did not pay a lot for it. What I do not like is that it seems "boomy" around 60-80Hz (which sucks for music) and for HT seems "sloppy" (is that a description?) Plus is make a LOUD "chirp" when it comes out from standby.

My replacement choices(In order I am leaning):

1. Hsu VTF-2 Mk III
2. Outlaw LFM-1 Plus
3. SVS PB12-NSD

Now I am NOT a bass-head (I mostly listen to classical with some 80s electronic (DM forever!)) And it is key for my HT setup as I would like to *feel* some of the bass (ie below 20 Hz).
Setup:
Yamaha RX-V663
Oppo DV-980H
4 x Axiom M22 v2
1 x Axiom VP150 v2

My sound anal-ness is about 70/30; music/HT. The room it will be in is about 1150cu.ft. with one side open to my dining room.
ALL of the manufacturers have responded almost exactly the same:
"Though the other subs you have mentioned (pick 2 of the above) are quality subs, ours (the other one) is more musical with a totally flat response. This will best suit your needs."

At least they all respect each other.


So Audioholics studs...esp those who have heard all the above...where do I go?

Thanks!!!

PS. I have a line on a VTF-2 Mk II. How does that stack against the Mk III?

 

[Adam]

If you haven't already, I would suggest that you do a relatively simple exercise to help determine if the boominess around 60-80Hz (as well as the HT sloppiness) is the sub itself or just the way that it is interacting with your room. The way that I would do it is to use an SPL meter, a set of test tones (I use a CD that I got from av123 for $5), and at least two different placements for the sub. If you measure the SPL over a set of frequencies (say, 16Hz to 100Hz), you could see if there is a hump around 60-80Hz - well, you'll see just how flat or bumpy the response is over that whole range. You then reposition the sub and/or just reposition where you are taking the measurements, and then redo the set of measurements. You might find that the sub isn't the root cause.

Just a thought. I'm not against you getting a new sub! I'd be happy for you. I wouldn't want you to pay for shipping and all, get it set up, and then have the same issue, though.

 

[mike c]

once upon a time before audioholics ... i was considering the E250P to replace my JBL 10" HTIB sub. and the rest is history ...

and yeah, the JBL's are boomy. especially the DTS track 'Hotel California' by the Eagles

 

[cwall99]

I'm in the same boat...

... but am probably even cheaper. I'm considering the same three subwoofers (or their little brothers, really) as well as a few others. For instance, I'd like to consider the SVS PB12-NSD, but my budget puts me into the SVS PB10-NSD range.

All three of these subs seem to be very well liked both in here and in many other places I've been, so I can't offer you any sort of counsel there that you haven't already seen or heard.

I do have this goofy thing to throw out there, though, and that's that the SVS subwoofers are actually built here in the states (in Ohio). That includes the actual drivers themselves (though I think the BASH amp is a Canadian made product).

I'm generally not that big of a chauvinist (my house is full of plenty of stuff made in China and elsewhere, and one of my cars has a VIN that indicates it wasn't made in the States), but given what's going on in our economy, I do like the idea of buying things, especially when they're high quality goods like these SVS subwoofers have the reputation of being, that are manufactured locally (I live in Detroit and am willing to overlook the fact that OSU is going to crush UofM this year). Fact is, whenever I can, I buy locally made stuff whenever I can, especially my beer.

So that's a totally irrational reason to pick SVS over the others, but, when they're all essentially the same level of quality, you gotta have some goofy other reason to pick something.

BTW, if I did my math correctly, you'll be using that PB12-NSD in a pretty small space (I'm guessing it's about a 12 x 12 room). You may end up with the same boomy bass note because the subs you're looking at may be too much for your space. Maybe the PB10-NSD would work in your space. I dunno. It's flat all the way down to 20 Hz too. I'm going to have to put mine in a room that's about four times that large, roughly 4200 cubic feet.

And, yes, I do know the problems with buying cheap instead of waiting until you can afford more, but my bass end of things is woefully inadequate.

Anyhow, enough of my rambling. Good luck in making a good choice. I don't think any of those three subs will let you down.

 

[mazersteven]

BTW, if I did my math correctly, you'll be using that PB12-NSD in a pretty small space (I'm guessing it's about a 12 x 12 room). You may end up with the same boomy bass note because the subs you're looking at may be too much for your space.

Boomy Base??? With proper calibration, and placement the OP should achieve excellent performance.

One persons "too much for your space" is another persons "Headroom".

 

[bandphan]

Boomy Base??? With proper calibration, and placement the OP should achieve excellent performance.

One persons "too much for your space" is another persons "Headroom".

Sounds like some skipped calibration class

 

[Adam]

Sounds like some skipped calibration class

I was there, but come on...they held it at 8am. I was half-asleep the whole time.

 

[cwall99]

Well, I have to admit, I totally missed the class, so I'm just speaking half-truths generated out of ignorance. Because I'm such a cheapskate, though, and because the 10-inch version of that sub has a flat response down to about 20 Hz (lower, so SVS says, in a non-anechoic room - uh, is that an echoic room?), I just thought he might be able to save a penny or two.

Like I said, I'm cheap.

uh, and ignint.

 

[billy p]

Well, I have to admit, I totally missed the class, so I'm just speaking half-truths generated out of ignorance. Because I'm such a cheapskate, though, and because the 10-inch version of that sub has a flat response down to about 20 Hz (lower, so SVS says, in a non-anechoic room - uh, is that an echoic room?), I just thought he might be able to save a penny or two.

Like I said, I'm cheap.

uh, and ignint.

I employ a pb10 in my 15x20 room and I'm extremely happy with it. Unfortunately I had to work within a budget when considering my sub purchase and IMHO its the best sub out there <$600 cdn. Now I don't consider myself cheap and nothing about SVS's build quality appears to be either as they're both excellent entry level subs.

Just my 2 cents, Bill

 

[rnatalli]

I'm partial towards HSU subs as I feel they're a bit more articulate than SVS, but you can't go wrong with either.

 

[Affejunge]

The consensus seems to be that any one of the subs would be good. Should I just go for the cheapest? Now Billy_P has me looking at the pb10! Nice to save some money.

No opinions about the Outlaw sub?

I do like that Hsu offers a military discount, but unfortunately I live in CA, so I have to pay sales tax. Outlaw offers a military discount on shipping to APOs; does not apply to me. I have not checked yet if SVS offers any discount.
Time to write another e-mail to SVS.

Also, is it me, or do Axiom subs seem really overpriced? I love my M22s and I thought they were a great deal, but their subs!

 

[Ron Temple]

The consensus seems to be that any one of the subs would be good. Should I just go for the cheapest? Now Billy_P has me looking at the pb10! Nice to save some money.

No opinions about the Outlaw sub?

I do like that Hsu offers a military discount, but unfortunately I live in CA, so I have to pay sales tax. Outlaw offers a military discount on shipping to APOs; does not apply to me. I have not checked yet if SVS offers any discount.
Time to write another e-mail to SVS.

Also, is it me, or do Axiom subs seem really overpriced? I love my M22s and I thought they were a great deal, but their subs!

Ron Stimpson is retired Army, IIRC, and I believe SVS offers a military discount too.

 

[j_garcia]

Outlaw's subs are designed by Dr. Hsu.

Let's put it this way, ALL of those subs are better than the JBL by a large margin, so your choice should be easy: coin toss.

 

[Adam]

Well, I gave my input on one way to decide if your sub really is the issue. Seems like you want a new one - which makes all of us happy.

I'll throw in my two cents on companies. I haven't dealt with Hsu or Outlaw, but I've heard good things. I own an SVS, and I was floored by their customer service. Absolutely outstanding. Great support, and very prompt on their responses to my e-mail inquiries (often on weekends). My first PC13-Ultra had a bit of shipping damage, and they were great about shipping me out a new unit. I kid you not, sometimes I try to talk myself into another sub just so that I can get another SVS.

 

[audion3wb]

<--outlaw sub owner

I picked up an Outlaw LFM-1 EX a little over a month ago. Considering what I paid I am quite happy with my new sub. I have a huge room (over 4k cu ft with large openings into kitchen with split level design and vaulted ceilings). It blends with my 5 channel speaker setup beautifully and gives me bass I can feel for movies and music alike.

I did a lot of shopping and shipping was what made the biggest difference because of Outlaws discount for me being in Alaska. In retrospect I couldn't have done better. The main reason being my house has baseboard radiant heat and during deep bass passages at high volume the metal on them vibrates and detracts from the sound quality. So with this sub now my limiting factor in going louder/deeper is actually the house itself. My next home purchase will have a large unfinished basement so I can build my HT room of my dreams.

Bottom line: I could have spent a lot more money on other subs out there but this one is perfect for me until I can get a dedicated HT. Another note is that the down firing design is nice so kids/pets dont mess with the driver.

Good luck. I think you will do very well no matter which sub you choose.

 

[Gimpy Ric]

*PLEASE don't let me start a flame war*​

I've owned both Hsu and SVS. The Hsu was the old top of the line VTF-3 HO Turbo. The SVS is the current PB13-Ultra. Here is my take on the two.

First, my screen name Gimpy Ric is because I'm a C 3-4 Quadriplegic paralyzed from the upper shoulders down. I cannot scoot around on the floor with my Rat Shack SPL meter looking for humps and nulls. And I flunked calibration class so both subs were setup in stock trim.

My HT is my master bedroom man cave with all my computers, stereo, ham radio gear etc. is setup. I spend a lot of time in here, and listen to music non stop most days.

Both subs are/were in the same location, between the mains, the only place for them. Build quality of both subs was excellent. I owned the Hsu first for a little more than 9 months. I miss that sub, my first big buck serious sub, just kinda had a bond with it. The Turbo port extensions were ugly, but took her down to 16 Hz, useful for some movies. That sub sounded a bit better with music than the SVS at lower volume levels. And until it ran out of gas, which was extremely loud, it always sounded good with music.

Then I got the bright idea that I needed a PB13 Ultra in Piano Black to match all of my Aperions. So I put the Hsu on Craigslist and sold her locally, low miles and all. I had to get in line with SVS to purchase the Ultra, about a month and a half. Then she arrived all shiney Black and looking like a Corvette compared to the Hsu. I have the metal grill, and it looks cool with the Piano Black finish. Anyways, Having failed calibration class, we just set the gain by ear after several hours of listening to favorite songs. The Ultra sounds good, but to match the Hsu on music, you have to turn the music up louder than you did with the Hsu. Not reference (read concert) level, but fairly loud.

Back to that Corvette reference, the SVS has goobs and goobs of headroom in 20 Hz. trim. She needs to rev up a little to get going. The Hsu was happy at idle, but ran more like a sedan, not having the insane output of the Ultra.

I'm sorry that I can't recommend one over the other, I've only heard mine, probably in the wrong spot, and un-calibrated. But I do hope you've enjoyed my short story

 

[j_garcia]

I haven't heard the VTF-3 with turbo, but without I thought it sounded great and I'd have to agree that I'd give the HSUs a slight edge when it comes to music in general. When it comes to the Ultra though, while I agree that it is more like an exotic in that it performs better when pushed hard, as opposed to cruising along, but I haven't heard many subs that went that low while still sounding good with music AND had insane output. It is impressive.

I have owned the VTF-2 and PB-10, both at the same time, and they left me with a similar impression, the VTF-2 (older) was slightly better with music but did not have anywhere near the extension of the PB-10. The PB-10 gave me 95% of the sound quality but had better output and of course the extension.

 

[johnfaz]

I have no experience with Outlaw. Although I've owned two hsu's (just bought a 3.3, use to have a 3.2), and have first hand experience with SVS (purchased a pc ultra for my place of employment's media room). I would say no matter which of the 3 you choose you will be content.

To sum it up, I'm extremely happy with the new 3.3, but think I'd be just as happy with an SVS.

 

[Affejunge]

Outlaw's subs are designed by Dr. Hsu.

Let's put it this way, ALL of those subs are better than the JBL by a large margin, so your choice should be easy: coin toss.

Well this is the most important thing! I do want to know that it was money well spent. The hard question: Will my wife notice it sounds better?!

 

[Affejunge]

I have owned the VTF-2 and PB-10, both at the same time, and they left me with a similar impression, the VTF-2 (older) was slightly better with music but did not have anywhere near the extension of the PB-10. The PB-10 gave me 95% of the sound quality but had better output and of course the extension.

Hmmm... I do want the deep extension (subsonic) but I don't need my fillings to rattle (ie does not need crazy SPL) I would love to feel the cracks of the stone in the Kazah Dum Bridge in LOTR - FOTR and not feel completely overwhemed with headache inducing booming bass (like I have now with my JBLs). Music is most important to me... so I am leaning toward Hsu/Outlaw