Amp For B&W's / Class D?

F

focker

Audiophyte
I just purchased a pair of 803D's and a HTM2d. Most have advice I have read is that these speakers enjoy a lot of power so I would like some input on amplifiers. I will be using my Pioneer SC-07 for the pre and am really thinking I would like to use a something in Class D because I like the idea of size and lower power use.
Options I am currently looking at:
Wyred for Sound
D-Sonic
Rotel RMB 1575

Non Class D:
Emotiva
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
Avoiding Emotiva seems to be the verdict. I hear of constant quality control issues. Sure, they might repair it for you under the warranty, but who wants to buy something anticipating of repairing it. Also, what happens once it's out of warranty? I guess you would be out of luck at that point.

The D-Sonic stuff looks like it's got potential, although a bit salty for me (very nice on the form factor though). I would prefer go with something from Behringer, like the EP2500 for lots of power. Honestly the SC-07 should be enough power for those speakers. They are moderately efficient and probably spend most of their time above 6 ohms (they have a nominal rating of 8 ohms). I honestly don't think you need an amplifier, as the one in the Pioneer is very solid.
 
F

focker

Audiophyte
Avoiding Emotiva seems to be the verdict. I hear of constant quality control issues. Sure, they might repair it for you under the warranty, but who wants to buy something anticipating of repairing it. Also, what happens once it's out of warranty? I guess you would be out of luck at that point.

The D-Sonic stuff looks like it's got potential, although a bit salty for me (very nice on the form factor though). I would prefer go with something from Behringer, like the EP2500 for lots of power. Honestly the SC-07 should be enough power for those speakers. They are moderately efficient and probably spend most of their time above 6 ohms (they have a nominal rating of 8 ohms). I honestly don't think you need an amplifier, as the one in the Pioneer is very solid.
This is REALLY good to hear! I was hoping my SC-07 would power these but I just read so much about them loving much more power. I will do a Google and take a look at the Behringer, hadn't heard of it.

Budget?

# of channels needed?
I will need 3 channels (the back could be hooked up if I have 5). I would like to keep the budget under $2500.
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
the Behringer EP2500 would need to be modified to keep fan noise down.

these pro amps don't need fan mods, but don't have 12v triggers:

Yamaha P5000S or Yamaha P3500S
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
these pro amps don't need fan mods, but don't have 12v triggers:

Yamaha P5000S or Yamaha P3500S
Which is easily forgiveable if you ask me, those are very good amplifiers. Yamaha is really underrated for their amplifiers.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Avoiding Emotiva seems to be the verdict. I hear of constant quality control issues. Sure, they might repair it for you under the warranty, but who wants to buy something anticipating of repairing it. Also, what happens once it's out of warranty? I guess you would be out of luck at that point.

The D-Sonic stuff looks like it's got potential, although a bit salty for me (very nice on the form factor though). I would prefer go with something from Behringer, like the EP2500 for lots of power. Honestly the SC-07 should be enough power for those speakers. They are moderately efficient and probably spend most of their time above 6 ohms (they have a nominal rating of 8 ohms). I honestly don't think you need an amplifier, as the one in the Pioneer is very solid.
Actually those speakers are a difficult load. Below 350 Hz, and that is the region that provides around 50% of the acoustic power, the impedance is 3 ohms. The speakers are nearer 8 ohms above 350 Hz. So if you calculate it out, roughly two thirds of the power will go to the lower three bass drivers. So the speaker is much nearer a 3 ohm speaker than an 8 ohm one. You would expect this with three drivers all paralleled below 350 Hz.

As an aside the sensitivity is misleading. There are two ways of specifying sensitivity. One is to specify the spl, at one meter with a watt of input. The other is to specify the spl. with an input voltage of 2.83 volts at 1 meter.

Now at 8 ohms the numerical value is identical. However your speakers are rated at 90db 2.83 volts one meter. Now this means that 1 watt of power will produce 90db at 1 meter above 350 Hz, but will require 2.7 watts to produce 90db at 1 meter below 350 Hz, almost three times the power.

Now the phase angles are not specified, but as a rule of thumb the current demands will likely be 15 to 30% greater than calculated by ohms law. It is always higher, than calculated by ohms law because of the fact that there is a phase angle between voltage and current when driving inductive loads like loudspeakers.

So yes, an amp comfortable with three ohm loads, and able to deliver power to a three ohm load is required.

The drop in impedance allows them to get that excellent bass performance from those three small bass drivers. F3 is 35 Hz, which is excellent bass performance. However you have to pay the piper.

Unfortunately those sonic ice amps will be quite unsuitable for driving those speakers. With class D switching amps, using the Sanyo chip set, distortion rises rapidly driving low impedance loads. That is why they only give an 8 ohm specification.

Unfortunately loudspeaker manufacturers, even good ones like B & W, go out of their way to mislead with specs. A term such as nominal impedance, means absolutely nothing. The minimal impedance is much more useful, especially if more than one bass driver is used. If the minimal impedance is quoted, and there is more than one bass driver, then you can go to the bank that the minimal impedance is going to be the impedance below the frequency where all the bass drivers are combined. Your 803 Ds are actually going to behave much more like a 3 ohm speakers than an 8 ohm ones.

One other rule of thumb. Whatever the manufacturer says the nominal impedance is, if it has two bass drivers, it is a four ohm speaker effectively, and if it has more than two bass drivers, it will be less than four ohms.
 
S

stato

Junior Audioholic
Great reply TLS guy. Very informative for all just learning. Thanks.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Mazer, that $350 amp has far less coloration of the signal than those $8000 speakers. :)

Buying an expensive amp is nothing more then eye candy, or psychological re-enforcement for those that are mis-informed. Hey, I'm all for eye candy if one has plenty of money to just blow for that purpose. But if the buyer has limited funds, they would be far better off spending that extra money on better speakers or room acoustical treatments. And lastly, that EP2500, that $350 amp, is going to drive the speakers better than most so-called audiophile amplifiers. Compared to most, it's built better(yeah, it really is - it's just ugly on the outside), it has far more current ability(to drive low impedance and highly reactive loads) and a lot more head room for dynamics.

-Chris
 
mazersteven

mazersteven

Audioholic Warlord
Buying an expensive amp is nothing more then eye candy, or psychological re-enforcement for those that are mis-informed. Hey, I'm all for eye candy if one has plenty of money to just blow for that purpose. But if the buyer has limited funds, they would be far better off spending that extra money on better speakers or room acoustical treatments. And lastly, that EP2500, that $350 amp, is going to drive the speakers better than most so-called audiophile amplifiers. Compared to most, it's built better(yeah, it really is - it's just ugly on the outside), it has far more current ability(to drive low impedance and highly reactive loads) and a lot more head room for dynamics.
Forget the eye candy. I'm just one that does believe there is a quality difference between amps. The things that make an amplifier able to drive complex loads are the things that add the most cost to an amp, like large and capable power supplies with plenty of filtering, lots of output transistors, and the heat sinking to accommodate all of it.

And this is "Just My Opinion".
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Forget the eye candy. I'm just one that does believe there is a quality difference between amps. The things that make an amplifier able to drive complex loads are the things that add the most cost to an amp, like large and capable power supplies with plenty of filtering, lots of output transistors, and the heat sinking to accommodate all of it.

And this is "Just My Opinion".
The $350 EP2500 has all of these things and delivers a true 1100+ watts per channel, both channels driven, into a 2 ohm load, with extremely low distortion. Measured by 3rd party. The only two issues with the EP2500 are fan noise(which is easy to remedy - if you can change a PC case fan you can change out the EP2500 fan - same type and mount fan) and requirement of a higher voltage pro level XLR input. You should use a step up transformer or active pre-gain matching device if you feed it from a RCA unbalanced source. But many higher end pre-amps actually have balanced outputs - so that might not even be an issue, depending on the pre-amp one uses. One can spend a little more and get one of the Yamaha pro amps that don't have the fan noise issue at all, and look better as well. I admit that the Behringer amp is ugly.

-Chris
 
F

focker

Audiophyte
TLS Guy, do you have any thoughts on either Class D or Class A/B solutions that I should be looking into? I am not afraid of going with something used BTW (I got the speakers used).
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
TLS Guy, do you have any thoughts on either Class D or Class A/B solutions that I should be looking into? I am not afraid of going with something used BTW (I got the speakers used).
If you want to go used, get an Adcom GFA-555 or GFA-555II from eBay. For about $275-$350(depending on cosmetic condition), you can get one of these great amps. They output is listed as 200 x 2 at 8 Ohms and 350x 2 at 4 Ohms. However, in 3rd party testing, these amps usually put out about 20% more power than specified. I used a 555 into 2.7 Ohm impedance load for years with no issues. It's great if it has sufficient power for your needs.

-Chris
 
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