Whole house A/V distribution - thoughts? challenge it?

[AbMagFab]

Below is what I'm planning for a new house install in terms of wiring and equipment control. I'd like you to push back with any issues you see, and say what you think is fine, ideally!

My goal is to stay away from closed-systems (like Crestron), to maximize my ability to do whatever I want over time and to focus costs on other fun things.

Anyway, here's the general setup, everything is home-run to a central closet:

Wiring-
- 2 x HDMI + 4 x Cat6 to each TV location
- Speakers in every room, 14x4/14x2 to each speaker location, home run
- Multi-use jacks in every room - 2x Cat6 + 2x RG6QS
- Additional Cat6 to thermostats, cameras, security system, temp sensors, drapes
- Possible Cat5e instead of Cat6
- Lighting - retro later with wireless controls as needed (it seems cat6 in power gang boxes isn't to code here, but not totally sure)

Hardware-
- All centrally located
- RF remotes (prefer URC right now, MSC-400 + MX-810, MX-6000 for panels)
- HDMI-capable AVR's for most rooms, centrally located, to provide for the HDMI switching
- For any shared devices (there will only be a couple), HDMI splitters (or regular RCA splitters)
- Cat6 for extending IR emitters to TV's (or just local IR control)
- Cat6 for extending RF receivers (e.g. RFX-250)

In terms of the lengths, most will be 30-60 feet, but some will be as long as 100 feet. I am planning to use something like Monoprice 22AWG HDMI cable with a repeater as needed. This is probably my biggest concern area, but I've tested already (not in walls, but just a 100-foot spool) and it seems to work fine up to 1080p even without a repeater (at least on my test equipment).

So what major issues do you see? What do you think sounds like it's fine?

(If you're a closed-system installer, please don't come in here just to pump-up how much a closed-system is better - I get it, I know where you stand. If you can provide advice for a non-closed-system, then please post.)

Thanks!

(Also posted to another forum, but the folks here seem to often provide more valuable input on stuff like this.)

 

[BMXTRIX]

It should be pointed out that AMX/Crestron aren't actually closed systems. They are just centrally oriented control systems which provide control over a bunch of other gear at a level that URC really can't touch. But, if you aren't up for programming them and you want flexibility then you likely are better off with something else for sure.

The questions/comments I have...

1. How are you doing audio? That is, if you want FM or XM in all the rooms, do you plan to have 10 different XM subscriptions or do you intend to split the RCA audio 10 different ways to individual receivers in each room or with a centralized splitter?

2. Have you carefully planned out what will happen if you have RF dead spots in your home?

3. Conduit is your friend... In new homes, conduit can be your best friend. 1" conduit minimum. HDMI can't fit down 3/4" conduit, and I would recommend 1.5" conduit.

4. Smarthome has dimmers which are similar to X10, called Insteon. They are supposed to be pretty nifty, and the only time I've seen them used they definitely worked nicely.

5. It's a lot of HDMI cabling, and you may run into some HDMI issues for sure with all the splitting that you listed, along with them running through receivers. Obviously, this is your concern as well, but it's no small feat to reliably get multiple HDMI runs everywhere. You might want to consider a HDMI matrix switcher. (Extron/Aurora Multimedia)

6. Consider that the multi-use jack with CAT-6 & RG6 likely should be on a different wall then where your phone and Internet connection may be desired. When I built my home the TV connection (with 1 cat-5) went on one wall, while the Internet/phone connection went on the opposite wall. Worked pretty well.

7. Consider volume controls/IR repeaters, etc. in rooms with audio only near the door way. You can run cat-6 to those locations and add a volume control/repeater at your convenience.

8. If you aren't putting speakers in a room, consider prewiring for them anyways. Just be very careful to mark out exactly where the speaker wire will be on your floor plans so you can find them later.

9. Low voltage wiring in high voltage boxes is against NEC and illegal in all states without a physical break between the high/low voltage sides of things. There are only a few exceptions to this rule that I've seen.

10. Be extremely careful to write up completely what your plans are, and what your potential final goals are. Before my home was completed I had over 7 pages of notes on what was going on with my home. None of it was 'product' related, it was all very specific for rooms... IE:
Master Bedroom: Stereo only A/V room. Front wall - Conduit to future plasma location, cat-5 to thermostat location to replace with low profile temerature sensor. Cat-5 jumper from thermostat to closet to hide thermostat in the future. Speakers flank TV location by 6 feet off center at 60" AFF. Rear wall, conduit & phone/ethernet connection. Light switch location, 22/12 wiring for lighting control via IR, add-on box for 12 button Crestron controller. Shades locations (L&R), Cat-5 for motorized blackout shades (Hunter Douglas) for IR control and possibly power. Add MX-850 remote control for integration into Crestron (RF), also have Cat-5 for Crestron touchpanel (maybe) at rear wall.

I then made a wire pull list, a conduit pull list, a wiring numbering chart so I could ID all wires later on, etc. About 100 wires were pulled initially and another 30 or so I added post construction.

11. Your equipment location is no small matter. I used a Middle Atlantic Rack. Just a Slim 5 rack which is inexpensive, and put it under the basement stairs. It ended up not being enough space for all my gear and I had to add a secondary equipment rack under the stairs.

12. You can't enclose your equpment in a space without very good HVAC control of that space. So, plan for it.

13. Did I mention conduit?

14. Consider what is important to have at the head end (amps, receivers, switchers, cable boxes, etc.) and what should be in a room itself (BD players, game systems, etc.)

15. You can't take enough photos of rooms before drywall goes up. Simple as that! Electrical pathways, conduit feeds, where studs are in rooms, etc. If you need to get into a wall later to add something, then knowing what that wall looks like and what wires may be there already can be invaluable to things. ie: Right now I'm adding recessed lights to 3 bedrooms. In two of them the wire goes up from the switch into the attic, but in one room, the wiring goes DOWN, so I will have to fish a cable down the wall. That's good to know before I try to deal with the room.

I'm not sure why you think a URC remote is somehow 'open'... But at some point, if you really want your entire home to be integrated, you are going to have to lock into a single type of control for all the various components. This is where you may find one remote company leaves you wishing for a lot more. Especially when it comes to complex products or products you just don't want to have to deal with by touching them at all if possible. So, do some homework on things. I know via eBay I picked up a control system, power supply, and 12-button keypads for all my rooms for under $1,000. I add MX-850 remotes for about $110 each via eBay, and the few touchpanels I use likewise came from eBay for a couple hundred bucks each... at most. At retail it's way more, but there are some buying options you may want to consider if you want to maximize quality.

Most of all though - your planning things out is the key to a successful installation.

 

[AbMagFab]

Thanks! This is great feedback. Actually, I have a 15+ page document with everything noted, including specific wiring, devices, location diagrams, etc. I also have a wiring pull list at the end, and an equipment summary.

In terms of URC, I consider it "open" because:
a) It's trivial to program, even the MSC-400
b) It's easily available in lots of places, like eBay as you mention, for very reasonable prices
c) There are lots of people who use it, so it's easy to get other database files when needed.

Also, the MSC-400 allows for serial control, video sensors, 5V and 12V input and output triggers, server-side macros, etc. I can also run multiple RF antenna all over the house over cat5, as well as extend IR emitters anywhere (each up to 150 feet). So I shouldn't have any dead RF locations?

Some additional questions for you:
1) What specifically do you see being limited by a URC-based system versus what I call a more closed-system? I can't imagine what I couldn't control, given all the flexibility the MSC-400 allows?

2) For audio, I plan to utilize the multiple amps (which I'd need no matter what), and either feed them a split source (as you describe), or better yet, utilize one of many "adequate" music systems, like SqueezeBox (which I'm recently fond of for non-audiophile whole-house music). It synchronizes perfectly across multiple devices, and uses internet subscriptions for XM, Sirius, Rhapsody, etc. Sonos is another option. Any thoughts on this?

3) I can always use the matrix switchers, but I'm not as worried about the splitting (as that's all digital), I'm more concerned about the longer distances and 1080p and such (although I've tested this a lot with no problems). Got more detail on the concerns here?

4) Volume controls/repeaters in local rooms - help me understand this as I've heard this before. I was just planning to use the RF remote to the AVR, since it's all connected already. What am I missing? What does the local volume control do for me over just using the remote? I know I must be missing something here...

5) Yeah, local systems is a good point. I don't play game systems, but I'm probably going to run an extra HDMI cable back to the closet in a couple of rooms, just in case. I can always use the extra cat5 runs and an HDMI or component balun if I need to I suppose?


Thanks again for any additional advice you can toss me!

 

[bandphan]

URC can work for your needs. What BMX is saying is the other two are truly geared for system integration and have private label products that intergrate seamless. URC can and will work but choosing your equipment properly will be the very important and a good understanding of rs232. The HDMI runs do seem like overkill for most needs and the UTP cable can cover areas needed. You wouldnt want handshake or other issues to arise in a distributed system all becuase of HDMI (I do not ever use it in these applications, except in a local sub system ) Also you mentioned matrix/splitters- just a not the good ones required are not cheap and you dont want to skimp on the type of system your looking to acheive. If you go the DYI plan, plan, and plan

edit- while RF is great, a good habit is to hard-wire as much as possible

 

[AbMagFab]

URC can work for your needs. What BMX is saying is the other two are truly geared for system integration and have private label products that intergrate seamless. URC can and will work but choosing your equipment properly will be the very important and a good understanding of rs232. The HDMI runs do seem like overkill for most needs and the UTP cable can cover areas needed. You wouldnt want handshake or other issues to arise in a distributed system all becuase of HDMI (I do not ever use it in these applications, except in a local sub system ) Also you mentioned matrix/splitters- just a not the good ones required are not cheap and you dont want to skimp on the type of system your looking to acheive. If you go the DYI plan, plan, and plan

edit- while RF is great, a good habit is to hard-wire as much as possible

The Cat6 at the TV's is for fallback, just in case there are any issues with HDMI. I haven't seen any, but who knows, so I want the backup. I'll also run a couple RG6QS as backup-backup (and direct RF input I suppose).

So what specifically won't I be able to accomplish with this setup? I've done a lot of research into the "closed systems", but I haven't seen anything except much higher costs, proprietary wiring, and no DIY (and often a minimal ability to start small and build over time). I'm curious what I am going to be unable to do with the setup I've described? Even if the HDMI runs fail, I have the Cat6 as a backup.

As I see it, I'm basically just moving what would normally be in each room to a central location, and just connecting via HDMI (via HDMI cable or Cat6 baluns). Just like when I have equipment in each room, everything connects to the AVR, then the AVR connects to the TV with one cable, and to the speakers. I'm simply moving the local equipment to a central location.

Right? Or am I totally missing something?

 

[BMXTRIX]

The Cat6 at the TV's is for fallback, just in case there are any issues with HDMI. I haven't seen any, but who knows, so I want the backup. I'll also run a couple RG6QS as backup-backup (and direct RF input I suppose).

HDMI to Cat-5 converters (not typically 'baluns') require 2 pieces of cat-5 on every single unit I've seen. This includes Extron, Monoprice, and Geffen (that I've seen). I've also had 'flaky' results with every one that I've used at some level. DirecTV would not work for me going through a HDMI->CAT-5 converter through a 5x1 Monoprice switch, but DID work if I sent it through a Geffen scaler first. No idea why! Panasonic BD-50 worked fine going straight through the switcher to the converter. What I really learned is that at a most basic level, HDMI can be unpredictably flaky. On the other hand, after 4 years in my home distributing HDTV over component video, I've had a total of ZERO issues, other than my matrix switcher being very out of date. So, I got a new one for $300 on eBay. That's 8 zones of component HD video with up to 8 HD component video sources, along with digital audio (coaxial) that can be sent anywhere I want. The HDMI equivalent is about $5,000 right now.

So what specifically won't I be able to accomplish with this setup? I've done a lot of research into the "closed systems", but I haven't seen anything except much higher costs, proprietary wiring, and no DIY (and often a minimal ability to start small and build over time). I'm curious what I am going to be unable to do with the setup I've described? Even if the HDMI runs fail, I have the Cat6 as a backup.

I think you have some good and some bad information. What you are describing to use is a 'closed' system. That is, you are picking a brand and using it for all of your needs. Crestron/AMX are control systems. They have IR/serial/IO/Relay controls built in, and offer (virtually) unlimited expandability. For price, they are expensive if you buy new, but right now, do a search for Crestron on eBay and see what you get...

It's worth noting that Crestron does something like 50 million a year in business, 25 million of that is residential. They aren't just a here today, gone tomorrow company. Of course, neither is AMX, Elan, Control 4, or URC. All of these companies have developed their own control systems (remote controls) which you can use to customize your home setup.

Keep in mind what I said before - I use a URC MX-850, and I use it with Crestron directly. It certainly isn't a 'closed' system. What do I use that's Crestron? Well, they have some really good matrix pre-amps for stereo rooms, so I use them. I also work for dealers, so I have an XM tuner with free service right now - gotta use that, and a couple of FM tuners, which I got for free. But, the concept is not really much different... I use CAT-5 for the wiring, not at all proprietary. My wireless touchpanel is wi-fi, pretty standard right? You can build a web interface you can hit from any computer. Likewise, I can hit my home system online from anywhere if I want to. The rest of my components are just like what others get... Pioneer plasma, Panasonic projector, Yamaha receiver, Sonance & Rotel amps, PS3, Wii, Extron, etc.

Now, are they harder to program? In many ways, yes, but in many ways no. PM me for info if you want, but everything can be had. Yahoo has some decent forums to help people who want to try out with things as well. But, 'closed' is kind of the wrong way to think of it. Tougher? Yeah, I would say the first steps aren't as easy, but there is nothing in this world that I've seen that is easier to use or more reliable.

As I see it, I'm basically just moving what would normally be in each room to a central location, and just connecting via HDMI (via HDMI cable or Cat6 baluns). Just like when I have equipment in each room, everything connects to the AVR, then the AVR connects to the TV with one cable, and to the speakers. I'm simply moving the local equipment to a central location.

Right? Or am I totally missing something?

Here are some concepts...
1. You have a single piece of gear that distributes video, and to conserve power you want to turn it on only when it is needed. Does the control you have do this? Is it possible? I mean, it can turn it on when one room needs it as part of the start up for that device, but when you shut off that room, what if another room is using it? Can you have smart logic to handle counting of devices?

2. What if you have the same scenario, but when you turn something off in one room, you want to turn it on in another room and continue playback. Can you set timers for 60 second turn off - or 3 minute turn off? So devices stay on for a while after rooms are done using them?

3. What if you have a speakers you want to match to another room (kitchen speakers to match audio in adjoining TV room)? Can you set it up with a single button that will see what is on in the TV room so it is automatically turned on in the kitchen?

4. What about party modes where you pick one source and can send it to all rooms with the press of a single button?

5. What about shutting all rooms off in your home with the touch of a button?

6. What about automating tasks such as turning lights on/off at specific times, or raising/lower shades?

7. What about true serial control with feedback that you can setup and change yourself? This may be possible with the URC piece, I'm not sure, but if you aren't writing the module, and it doesn't do what you want, then how do you change it to make it do what you want?

8. What about customization beyond what is in the box? For example, I use a 400 disc DVD changer. I've loaded all the cover art (manually - a long process) and the touchpanel shows the covers for all the movies I have. I just press a movie cover and it starts playback automatically... How easy would this be with a URC?

Don't get me wrong, I've used URC plenty, but I've also picked up Crestron gear on eBay and have sold it in my installations for less than cost of the product new. So, the difference in price can actually be less than many people expect. The biggest plus is for audio only rooms. No RF remotes, just a hard wired 12-button keypad in each room. I press the XM button and XM comes on in the room, press the FM button and stereo comes on. Both cable boxes, the Apple TV, DVD, etc. is all available with a single button press, and most of all - my son, at 2 years old, knew how to turn on music and I didn't worry about him 'breaking' my expensive A/V gear. It truly is a zero learning curve product when installed.

Now, this is where I haven't seen URC match Crestron/AMX, but I sure as heck have used their remotes in my home because I like the feel of them, and as I said, the MX-850 integrates seamlessly.

Oh - don't forget - conduit.

 

[BMXTRIX]

Sorry - more to your specific questions...

In terms of URC, I consider it "open" because:
a) It's trivial to program, even the MSC-400
b) It's easily available in lots of places, like eBay as you mention, for very reasonable prices
c) There are lots of people who use it, so it's easy to get other database files when needed.

Also, the MSC-400 allows for serial control, video sensors, 5V and 12V input and output triggers, server-side macros, etc. I can also run multiple RF antenna all over the house over cat5, as well as extend IR emitters anywhere (each up to 150 feet). So I shouldn't have any dead RF locations?

While this should be true, the problems I've seen with most of these systems is that if you do run into an issue, the solution is rarely in your hands or your control because the programming actually tends to limit your capabilities. You end up 'configuring' a system, instead of having the flexibility of programming, which is a blessing and a curse. As I said in my prior post, this doesn't kill you, but may not give you all you want either.

1) What specifically do you see being limited by a URC-based system versus what I call a more closed-system? I can't imagine what I couldn't control, given all the flexibility the MSC-400 allows?

I definitely covered that in the prior post.

2) For audio, I plan to utilize the multiple amps (which I'd need no matter what), and either feed them a split source (as you describe), or better yet, utilize one of many "adequate" music systems, like SqueezeBox (which I'm recently fond of for non-audiophile whole-house music). It synchronizes perfectly across multiple devices, and uses internet subscriptions for XM, Sirius, Rhapsody, etc. Sonos is another option. Any thoughts on this?

No issues, but are you planning a single audio source or how exactly do you plan to feed multiple audio sources to multiple rooms? How many are stereo only rooms? How many are surround rooms? How many are full A/V? Ahead of the amplifiers, if you want to pick sources independently, then you need to consider how that will be accomplished. Typically a matrix switcher is the solution.

3) I can always use the matrix switchers, but I'm not as worried about the splitting (as that's all digital), I'm more concerned about the longer distances and 1080p and such (although I've tested this a lot with no problems). Got more detail on the concerns here?

The issue with HDMI is related to HDCP pretty exclusively. You can get the distance, but the digital connection of HDMI with a matrix often leaves devices just not working. There's a LOT of concerns that I would have, but nothing that I could point to which would alleviate those concerns. I mean, if it's 'randomly' going to not work with certain gear, then there's no way to even know ahead of time. This has NOTHING to do with distances, and everything to do with HDCP compatiblity - which is a huge issue.

4) Volume controls/repeaters in local rooms - help me understand this as I've heard this before. I was just planning to use the RF remote to the AVR, since it's all connected already. What am I missing? What does the local volume control do for me over just using the remote? I know I must be missing something here...

How many AVRs are you planning to have? How many rooms with audio? Don't get me wrong, but I have 11 stereo zones which are 100% independent in my home, and one surrround zone. I can add as many more as I want, but currently have it setup to add a few more at this time. If you have 5 zones, how did you plan to control audio? Did you intend to have 5 separate A/V receivers? That's a lot of gear. If you have 12 zones, do you plan to get a dozen receivers? If you plan to just use 'zone 2 out' then how do you independently control volume to each room? At some level, independent volume control for each room becomes necessary.

5) Yeah, local systems is a good point. I don't play game systems, but I'm probably going to run an extra HDMI cable back to the closet in a couple of rooms, just in case. I can always use the extra cat5 runs and an HDMI or component balun if I need to I suppose?

Dual cat-5 for HDMI (as I said before). Yes, this works, but should just be kept in mind.

As I said, and will say in every single post in this thread... conduit, conduit, conduit.


Thanks again for any additional advice you can toss me![/QUOTE]

 

[bandphan]

i think bmx has covered that topic very well. Its now up to you to determine the level of controll you need and want. You seem to have a good grasp of the options now, let us know what goes forward.

 

[silvrhand]

While you are at it think about data connections since you are running CAT5/6 for networking. There are new things such as receivers, network sound devices, and everything else you'll probably be able to use on a data network, so dropping one/two extra cat 5/6 pulls while you are doing it could be beneficial in the long run.

- extra network printers
- extra kid computers
- tivo integration
- etc, etc.

 

[AbMagFab]

Here are some concepts...
1. You have a single piece of gear that distributes video, and to conserve power you want to turn it on only when it is needed. Does the control you have do this? Is it possible? I mean, it can turn it on when one room needs it as part of the start up for that device, but when you shut off that room, what if another room is using it? Can you have smart logic to handle counting of devices?

2. What if you have the same scenario, but when you turn something off in one room, you want to turn it on in another room and continue playback. Can you set timers for 60 second turn off - or 3 minute turn off? So devices stay on for a while after rooms are done using them?

3. What if you have a speakers you want to match to another room (kitchen speakers to match audio in adjoining TV room)? Can you set it up with a single button that will see what is on in the TV room so it is automatically turned on in the kitchen?

4. What about party modes where you pick one source and can send it to all rooms with the press of a single button?

5. What about shutting all rooms off in your home with the touch of a button?

6. What about automating tasks such as turning lights on/off at specific times, or raising/lower shades?

7. What about true serial control with feedback that you can setup and change yourself? This may be possible with the URC piece, I'm not sure, but if you aren't writing the module, and it doesn't do what you want, then how do you change it to make it do what you want?

8. What about customization beyond what is in the box? For example, I use a 400 disc DVD changer. I've loaded all the cover art (manually - a long process) and the touchpanel shows the covers for all the movies I have. I just press a movie cover and it starts playback automatically... How easy would this be with a URC?

You should take a look at the URC MSC-400. Basically, it does everything you describe. It's a server-side control system, it supports serial control, timers, deep macros, sensors, IR, etc.

In terms of synchronized music, I already have that with two different systems (they each do it, I was just testing if one was better or not) - Sonos and SqueezeBox. I prefer SB, as it's much more flexible, and I like their two-way remote better. And yes, with one push I can turn on the whole house music, a few rooms, or whatever. I can also do this through an MSC-400, depending on what and how I want to accomplish it. I'll ultimately pick just one method, but it's nice to have options.

My main issues with something like Crestron is that once you buy into them, you're stuck. For example, it's just this year they announced an HDMI solution - that's 4-5 years after HDMI was available! That's simply unacceptable to me. Couple that with the 4x+ cost for their units, and it's a non-starter. If they were either technically current, or more cost-effective, I'd be interested, but they're too closed and too slow to adapt.

And don't get me wrong, budget isn't a huge deal. But I'm not going to throw money away on something that cripples my ability to do what want, just for the sake of getting a "Garanimals" solution. I'm savvy enough to put pieces together, and to program control systems. This stuff is hardly rocket science.

Anyway, I've got the first wave of stuff coming this week, including a new 131 foot HDMI cable, so I'll be doing lots of initial testing!

For music, pictures, and video, I'm a big HTPC/media player person. I've been doing that for about 7 years, back when PrismiQ was around, and earlier. At this point, my HTPC configuration is pretty solid, and nearly WAF. In any case, all movies, album art, etc. are handled through that.

 

[BMXTRIX]

You should take a look at the URC MSC-400. Basically, it does everything you describe. It's a server-side control system, it supports serial control, timers, deep macros, sensors, IR, etc.

I'm aware of the product, and I've spoken to them at CEDIA. While this product is good, it has some limitations such as those I listed above. You asked what it couldn't do, and the list I gave was a part of it. But, the logic of the MSC-400 is on the level of a basic Crestron system, and will require the expertise similar to that of someone who knows Crestron/AMX at a basic level. As I said, not that I'm trying to talk you out of anything, but you seem to think that Crestron/AMX (and others) are somehow way more complex than they are, or that they aren't suited to the simplicity you want. On the contrary, what I have found is that to make things truly WAF, you need a system which is truly powerful enough to deliver, not one which just does macros.

In terms of synchronized music, I already have that with two different systems (they each do it, I was just testing if one was better or not) - Sonos and SqueezeBox. I prefer SB, as it's much more flexible, and I like their two-way remote better. And yes, with one push I can turn on the whole house music, a few rooms, or whatever. I can also do this through an MSC-400, depending on what and how I want to accomplish it. I'll ultimately pick just one method, but it's nice to have options.

I'm not very familiar with them overall. I've seen Sonos and while I liked it to a point, I wasn't sure that it was really a very flexible solution.

Heck, maybe I'm saying it wrong... do you plan to have a dozen units in all the rooms to make this work? What if you want to add FM or something else? What about a regular CD to the mix? Maybe it all works fine and you can pick and choose and integrate it all easily, which would be great. I've definitely seen some things that do work very nicely. But, how good will the audio be, and what limitations are there? Those are questions for you, not accusations from me, because I'm really not familiar with it.

My main issues with something like Crestron is that once you buy into them, you're stuck.

This is where you seem to be very confused about what Crestron is.

Crestron isn't a complete home solution, it is a complete home CONTROL solution. It's the MSC-400 that you just listed above, and has 37 different touchpanels available for it, along with Ethernet control, and 100% customization available.

For example, it's just this year they announced an HDMI solution - that's 4-5 years after HDMI was available! That's simply unacceptable to me.

Then why would you ever consider their HDMI solution? There are typically other solutions which work better, and those are what you should use. For some reason you have convinced yourself that you have to use Crestron products only in a Crestron system instead of whatever the heck you want to use. Squeezebox? Sure, why not use that and integrate full Ethernet control of Squeezebox with Crestron so that from a single Ethernet panel, you can control everything with a custom interface of your own design? (just a concept)

Couple that with the 4x+ cost for their units, and it's a non-starter. If they were either technically current, or more cost-effective, I'd be interested, but they're too closed and too slow to adapt.

You really don't get what Crestron is then.

How many companies on the market, right now, have Matrix HDMI switchers? Are they 'behind the times'? How many offer seamless HDMI switching? How many offer 8 input switchers? More importantly, if you don't like spending the money, why not just pick up a 8x1 HDMI switcher from Monoprice and integrate it with Crestron, URC, Elan, AMX, or whatever? There's absolutely nothing about any of these systems that is CLOSED and prevents you from doing so.

And don't get me wrong, budget isn't a huge deal. But I'm not going to throw money away on something that cripples my ability to do what want, just for the sake of getting a "Garanimals" solution.

Yet, as I read what you write, and the solutions you want, you are picking products that very specifically limit your true potential and flexibility because you don't understand what is possible when you truly have a control system that is designed from the ground up for 100% control of anything.

Just for example: The MSC-400 offers RS-232 but it only has a 3 wire connection for serial, which means if you need RTS/CTS connectivity for a device to operate correctly, you won't have it, and the MSC-400 will be incompatible with that device.

What about RS-485 security systems? Or RS-422?

I'm savvy enough to put pieces together, and to program control systems. This stuff is hardly rocket science.

Yet, for some (myself include) this is a career, and the solutions demand reliability and convenience above all else. While you may be willing to put forth the time, over and over and over, to keep an unstable system up and running - though I hope this isn't the case, for most people they just want it to work.

In three years, the biggest issue I've had is replacing my batteries on my remote.

Anyway, I've got the first wave of stuff coming this week, including a new 131 foot HDMI cable, so I'll be doing lots of initial testing!

Monoprice rocks - I use their stuff in most of my residential Crestron installations.

For music, pictures, and video, I'm a big HTPC/media player person. I've been doing that for about 7 years, back when PrismiQ was around, and earlier. At this point, my HTPC configuration is pretty solid, and nearly WAF. In any case, all movies, album art, etc. are handled through that.

I wish you luck, I spent about thirty minutes integrating AppleTV into my switcher and Crestron system and it seems to be working just fine.

 

[AbMagFab]

I'm aware of the product, and I've spoken to them at CEDIA. While this product is good, it has some limitations such as those I listed above. You asked what it couldn't do, and the list I gave was a part of it. But, the logic of the MSC-400 is on the level of a basic Crestron system, and will require the expertise similar to that of someone who knows Crestron/AMX at a basic level. As I said, not that I'm trying to talk you out of anything, but you seem to think that Crestron/AMX (and others) are somehow way more complex than they are, or that they aren't suited to the simplicity you want. On the contrary, what I have found is that to make things truly WAF, you need a system which is truly powerful enough to deliver, not one which just does macros.

I already have one MSC-400, and I've been programming it a lot. Not to insult the AMX/Crestron people, but this is very easy programming. I have a software engineering background, so maybe that helps, but we're talking CE device control, not the space shuttle. There's no "expertise" needed (that sounds like a scare tactic from Crestron-type folks). And with MX-810's as front-ends, it can't get more WAF. Not sure what you're talking about here.

And there's nothing you described above that this device can't do, at least not that I see. Which is why I asked what it can't do?

I'm not very familiar with them overall. I've seen Sonos and while I liked it to a point, I wasn't sure that it was really a very flexible solution.

Heck, maybe I'm saying it wrong... do you plan to have a dozen units in all the rooms to make this work? What if you want to add FM or something else? What about a regular CD to the mix? Maybe it all works fine and you can pick and choose and integrate it all easily, which would be great. I've definitely seen some things that do work very nicely. But, how good will the audio be, and what limitations are there? Those are questions for you, not accusations from me, because I'm really not familiar with it.

Yes, I can do anything you can imagine. Any combination of any rooms and any sources. The audio quality is very good, but not audiophile quality (it's just SPDIF), which means it will work for everything but my home theater (which is fine).

Yet, for some (myself include) this is a career, and the solutions demand reliability and convenience above all else. While you may be willing to put forth the time, over and over and over, to keep an unstable system up and running - though I hope this isn't the case, for most people they just want it to work.

Well, I'm glad you were finally honest about this. It's amazing how Crestron vendors always have the same stories - Crestron does it, and nothing else does. And guess what? It's 5-10x the price of completely functional alternatives.

And you all make the same mistakes - assuming no one else knows what they're talking about.

In any case, I hope others reading this thread see this for what it is - self interest from a Crestron vendor. As I said in my original post, I'd like to keep the closed-system vendors out of this thread as I'm not interested in the marketing.

Thanks! I think I get your points.

 

[bandphan]

Yes, I can do anything you can imagine. Any combination of any rooms and any sources. The audio quality is very good, but not audiophile quality (it's just SPDIF), which means it will work for everything but my home theater (which is fine).

How are you distributing digital audio?

 

[AbMagFab]

How are you distributing digital audio?

Via the config I described in my OP. It distributes all audio and video throughout the house.

What specifically are you asking?

 

[BMXTRIX]

I already have one MSC-400, and I've been programming it a lot. Not to insult the AMX/Crestron people, but this is very easy programming. I have a software engineering background, so maybe that helps, but we're talking CE device control, not the space shuttle. There's no "expertise" needed (that sounds like a scare tactic from Crestron-type folks). And with MX-810's as front-ends, it can't get more WAF. Not sure what you're talking about here.

I'm not saying it will or will not cause an issue, and while I am an authorized URC dealer, I have not been through their full program to see what all their products can do across the board. What I've run into with what I have used so far has definitely been somewhat limiting. But, that doesn't mean that it isn't appropriate for your needs.

The programming level is not meant as a scare tactic, but as a possibility. Anyone with a few programming classes who is comfortable with computers and the concept of programming will have few issues with Crestron, AMX, Elan, or almost anything else. The difference is, that if you are comfortable with what C++ can do, and then you program a URC you may feel the limitations of what the URC products can do. In comparison, these same limitations really aren't there with Crestron/AMX and some others. You can store varialbles, you have non-volitile RAM, you can dump files onto and retrieve from networks.

And there's nothing you described above that this device can't do, at least not that I see. Which is why I asked what it can't do?

There are several things I described which I wasn't sure of, and several which I said it could not do, but that may not matter for your setup in the least. I'm not trying to sell you something - I'm just trying to point out the differences which I have seen when using various products.

Yes, I can do anything you can imagine. Any combination of any rooms and any sources. The audio quality is very good, but not audiophile quality (it's just SPDIF), which means it will work for everything but my home theater (which is fine).

I will have to do a bit more research on Squeezebox, sounds like it might be interesting to see how capable it is and how well it interfaces with other products.

Well, I'm glad you were finally honest about this. It's amazing how Crestron vendors always have the same stories - Crestron does it, and nothing else does. And guess what? It's 5-10x the price of completely functional alternatives.

You have taken a specifically hostile note with this. I work for an AV company and have training in AMX, Crestron, Extron, Polycom, Vantage, Lutron, and a long list of high end products. I run my own company where I'm a URC dealer, but NOT a Crestron dealer. My job is an A/V Systems Engineer, so it is to design reliable systems that are easy to use.

An A/V receiver is functional if someone knows how to use it, and in my experience (not opinion) the average homeowner doesn't set up their equipment properly, they don't know what surround is supposed to do, they don't understand HDMI or HD at all, and they just end up plugging the cable into the TV directly and tuning to channel 3 because that's the easiest way to make things work. In my opinion, as a system gets better, and typically more complicated, remotes that may be very good for a simple theater, start to fall short on capability. Then what happens? People stop using whatever is a pain to use, or doesn't work reliably. I have actually never seen a system that was buggy that people still used regularly, but I have seen dozens which were not in use at all. This includes some poorly designed/integrated Crestron/AMX systems.

And you all make the same mistakes - assuming no one else knows what they're talking about.

I think I have been up front in saying what my concerns are and where my understanding of certain pieces falls short. I have also pointed out to you where I find that you are making some poor assumptions or statements about what Crestron/AMX is. They are phenomenally reliable systems which have a history of a dozen plus years dedicated to AV systems control first and foremost. Not for designing HT gear, but controlling gear - which means they are very open with their capabilties - not closed at all.

In any case, I hope others reading this thread see this for what it is - self interest from a Crestron vendor. As I said in my original post, I'd like to keep the closed-system vendors out of this thread as I'm not interested in the marketing.

Yes, people reading this thread will see exactly what is said, not what you have implied. Since I'm not selling, or trying to sell, but just making corrections, which you consistently ignore, others can make up their own minds.

I have suggested eBay, where you can buy Crestron for under $100 as an option, in comparison to the MSC-400 on eBay which I only saw at $400. Really, for a whole house integrated system, URC may do exactly what you need, and I hope it does, but it may fall short for reliability, and for certain feature sets that you may really desire at some point. But, because I haven't worked with the MSC-400 I certainly am not saying that it won't meet your needs and I wish you good luck with your system which you have designed and researched and know so much about.

 

[AbMagFab]

Hah, okay, I gotcha BMXTRIX, aka David St. Hubbins... It goes to 11, okay, great. Really enlightening!

 

[ParadigmDawg]

Dang BMX, you are obviously dealing with a prick here. You have done nothing but tried to help and all the sudden he has an attitude.

 

[bandphan]

Via the config I described in my OP. It distributes all audio and video throughout the house.

What specifically are you asking?

how are you distributing spdif?? I do not see it in the op. How is each zone fed?

 

[bandphan]

Hah, okay, I gotcha BMXTRIX, aka David St. Hubbins... It goes to 11, okay, great. Really enlightening!

ok, people take their time to provide answers to questions posted, then every now and then a know it all posters comes a calling for help just for the sake a bragging about their "plans". I hope your adventure works out for you, but add me to the list of folks that wont chime in when "advice" is nedded