M

mudrummer99

Senior Audioholic
So, after a lengthy, very good conversation with my wife today, I am now going a new direction in speaker choosing. We are moving into what we hope is our last rental property in about 3 weeks and we plan on being there for 2-3 years. When this stint is done we will be buying a house. Here is where you guys come in. I have been planning on buying a new 3.1 (maybe the .1, not positive yet) for my HT setup. I was originally going to drop some serious cash on this setup and be done with it for the next decade or so, but the wife gave me an option. 1) Buy what I want in about 6 months when I'm able to save the scratch for it and do with what I have for the moment. This would probably lead to a reasonable setup with a few compromises (or maybe a few more than I would like) 2) Buy a new 3.0 (keeping my existing, slacker sub) that is much less expensive, maybe even used, and when we buy a house I can go ape nuts, her words not mine. I couldn't believe my ears, but my wife visited a friend of her's house the other day and her fiance had a rocking HT and she fell in love and is now all about it.

So my question is, if I took option 2, and since I work at BBY, I will more than likely stick with that selection unless someone has some decent speakers they want to unload. Which way would you go? I'm looking for front stage, prefer floor standers since this setup will be for about 98% HT and I do like the Klipsch sound but am not married to it. What I want to spend would be about $1k retail and I'll take my discount into account after that. Thanks in advance as always for your great feedback.

Mike
 
mazersteven

mazersteven

Audioholic Warlord
1) I don't know why you would want to rent then it's a buyers market. With the foreclosure rate as high as it is. Most of those people are in the rental market now. This has lead to an increase in rents.
 
M

mudrummer99

Senior Audioholic
Buying isn't an option. The problem comes in with us being first time buyers and getting a loan is damn near impossible now. It'll be a few months-1 year before people such as us with beginner credit can get a decent loan without a ridiculous down payment, actual words of the mortgage broker we spoke to about a week or so ago. So renting it is, although the place we are renting is giving us a lease-to-buy option so if we really end up liking this place we can buy it, for a very nice price I might add. Thanks for the suggestion though.

Mike
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Mike, what is "much less expensive" in dollar terms? What would your budget be if you were to buy now?
 
M

mudrummer99

Senior Audioholic
Mike, what is "much less expensive" in dollar terms? What would your budget be if you were to buy now?
Much less expensive would be about $1k retail at BBY or about $500-600 somewhere else.

Mike
 
M

mudrummer99

Senior Audioholic
Hmm, what if I kept my Klipsch B-3's and added on 2 smaller subs and upgraded to non-sub'd towers in the future? Any thoughts on that?

Mike
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
My thoughts are this:

right now, you don't know for certain what your future place that you own might be. It could wind up being the place you're renting now. But it could also end up being something different. Maybe a house with a basement. Maybe an apartment. Who knows? And when we're talking 2-3 years down the road, it's certainly not anything you can know 100% right now.

So I would personally avoid trying to buy your "dream" system right now. Any "dream" system has to be appropriate for the room. If you end up in a house with a basement, you're going to want a completely different system than if you end up in an apartment. I hope that makes sense :)

If you are not really happy with what you have now though, then I'd say it's certainly still worth your while to put together a nice, entry-level system that will sound good for the next 2-3 years and can then be easily sold or used in a second room once you buy a place and put together your "dream" system.

With that in mind, we're talking about a rented apartment for now, yes?

This is just me, but I would avoid floor standers for now and go with a GOOD sub/sat system.

More often than not, using floor standers or a low quality sub results in worse complaints about bass "leaking" into your neighbors' rooms and also results in worse sound to your ears. This is because you typically have to turn up the volume more if you have lower quality bass and when the bass is coming from your floorstanders, they are coupled directly to the floor and all of the bass they produce is transmitted by structure-borne resonance (ie. the speakers directly shake the floor).

All-in-all, you can get better sound AND bother your neighbors less by getting a GOOD sub/sat system. A good sub/sat system will also be super easy to use in a second room or to sell later when you buy a place.

You don't have to sacrifice a subwoofer just because you are in an apartment. All you need to do is decouple it with something like an Auralex SubDude or GRAMMA isolation riser. It is the structure-borne resonance that bothers neighbors and when you decouple the sub from the floor, you drastically reduce those bothersome sounds. You also get better sound in your own room.

What I think would actually make a ton of sense would be to save a ton of cash and just go for the little, but very good Athena Micra6 speaker package.

The pro reviews that are out there agree 100% with my own experience with this little wonder system, which is that they sound amazing for the price and are darn near perfect for an apartment setup. The blend between the satellite speakers and the 8" sub is particularly well done and that allows the system as a whole to sound like much larger speakers.

You get darn good sound right away. It's a very physically small system that is super easy to setup and to move around and to use in a second room in the future. I think your wife will likely appreciate that you are using a physically small system for the time being. And the price is certainly right!

Sit that 8" sub on an Auralex SubDude and you'll be very good to go, I think. :)
 
M

mudrummer99

Senior Audioholic
First,
Thanks for the very useful response. Just a couple of additional pieces of info that I didn't put into the original post. I currently have a decent pair of bookshelves, the B-3's in my sig. I like them alright but I'm looking to move those to my computer setup since my wife is stealing my Polks to put on her tv in the music/office room. The place we are moving into is a townhouse, 2 floors. The cool thing about it is that they are, while still being attached to each other, built as almost completely freestanding units. There is a double wall between each unit with 4" of space between the walls. After talking to some of the current residents they told us that very, very rarely do you hear anything from the neighbor's units. While I still like to be respectful to my neighbors, this will allow me to watch movies pretty much whenever I like since I'm not a huge "turn it up to 11" person. I will definitely look into the GRAMMA or SubDudes as well, they sound like they will help with a couple situations I may run into.

After sitting for an hour or two in our Mag demo room (ok, ok, it may have been a little longer than that) I'm strongly considering the DefTech studiomonitor 350's/CLR2002/SCII. This is something that sounded very satisfying but still will come it at a great price point. My only up in the air is the center channel, I think. I don't know if I'm going to cheap out and get the promon 1000 or go with the 2002. I listened to both back and forth and, while there is a significant difference, I'm not certain that it is completely worth the price difference. I guess I'm also used to having a completely inadequate center channel so this may be something I just suck up and get. BTW if you folks haven't noticed by this point, I'm very indecisive and have trouble actually spending my cash, that's why I ask for help here, I know you guys can always help me spend my money. ;) Thanks for the feedback so far. I greatly appreciate it.

Mike
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Cool :cool:

Having the better sound isolation of double party walls and no one directly above or below you certainly helps a lot! You'll definitely still want to decouple your subwoofer with a SubDude or GRAMMA though. It's amazing how bass can travel through the structure of your building! Just as an example, one of my friends built his home theater in his basement. Concrete floor and walls. He figured he had no problems. But he was getting complaints from his neighbor who's house was completely detached! The houses were relatively close together (about 7 feet from outer wall of one house to the outer wall of the other), but still, not attached at all, yet the bass was able to transmit through the concrete, through the earth, through his neighbors concrete foundation and shake his neighbors house enough that he could hear it!

A GRAMMA isolation riser solved that problem. No more complaints! And better than that, my friend had noticed that during loud parts in movies, his front projector - which is ceiling mounted - would shake and the image on screen would obviously shake as well. The GRAMMA solved that issue too. And certainly not least of all, it also improved the general tone and accuracy of the bass that was heard. So all-in-all, for a $50 device, the GRAMMA solved some pretty big issues with an absolute minimal amount of effort :)

I'm a fan of simply using the size and type of speakers that make the most sense for the current room in which they are being used. That is why I don't really hype the idea of spending a lot of money for a "dream" setup when the intent is to move that system to a future room that is, as of yet, unknown.

Often, people will buy speakers that are physically larger and capable of more output than really makes sense for their current room because they intend to move the system to a larger room in the future. But just as often, the result is a system that does not really sound its best right away and then ends up not working so well in that future room because - at the time of purchase - there was no real knowledge of how that future room actually ended up sounding acoustically!

All I'm saying is, my own personal belief is that you'd be best served in buying a system now that is appropriate for the room that you have now. If you know that you want a "dream" system in the future, then simply let that inform you that you need to keep the price low for the time being.

Basically, what I'm sensing is that you have a hope that you can buy something that is "somewhere in the middle" right now. The hope being that you will "luck out" and also be able to use these same speakers in your future "dream" setup.

From my own experience - that is not impossible, but it is unlikely. The far more likely outcome is that you will spend more money now, only to discover that when you move into your "dream" setup, you truthfully want a whole new setup anyway. End result is that you end up with a compromised system right now that costs more than it needs to and then you end up replacing the whole thing in the future anyway! More money spent and lesser performance right now does not equal good value in the long run IMO ;)

So my advice would be this - tell us the details of your current room and try to purchase a lower cost system now that will really work well in your current room for a low price. Don't worry so much about the future plans. You can't know for sure what is going to happen, so trying to fall "somewhere in the middle" is honestly just a shot in the dark and a total guess. Don't worry about that future system. Just keep the cost down for now while buying a system that makes the most sense for your current room and no other. :)
 
M

mudrummer99

Senior Audioholic
Alright. The room that I am going to use (link to floorplan attatched) is about 18'3" X 13'. It's the one that is marked as the master suite in the picture. Long story, ask if you want a somewhat convoluted rationale for it. Assuming the floor plan is oriented North being up, we are planning to have a couch about 10' back from the west wall with all the electronics on that wall. A huge amount of sound isn't really necessary since we will be sitting relatively close. This will be for a 3.1 setup since we will have no way to run speaker wire and hide it, as per WAF. My current EQ is in my sig. If I can get a reasonable upgrade without changing out some of this stuff, I'm fine with that but I'm not down for replacing units unless there is a pretty good increase in quality. I would prefer to stick with the selection at Best Buy/Magnolia since I am an employee and get a great bang for my buck. With BB products, my budget would be somewhere in the neighborhood of $1k-$1.5k retail, less is cool with me. If there are other products that would just blow all this stuff away, then my budget is around $500-700 or so. I'm planning on keeping the receiver until I get the big system, so this will be just for the 3.1 speakers. I hope this is enough info, and again, thanks for your help.

Mike

http://www.rcookproperties.com/courtyards_dundee/images/cd_fp_adams_01.gif
 
M

mudrummer99

Senior Audioholic
Oops, forgot that this setup will be about 98% HT since I listen to most of my music on my computer setup.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Okey dokey. :)

Well first off, it's a good room in the sense that it's rectangular and closed off (ie. not an "open concept"). On the down side though, it has cathedral ceilings, which are, acoustically, a bit of a nightmare :p

You're dealing with something in the range of 2000-2500 cubic feet, which is a decidedly "medium sized" room. This is definitely a room where I would use a subwoofer rather than relying on tower speakers to handle all of the bass. If the budget were a lot higher, I'd be going for two subwoofers and quite a bit of bass trapping, but clearly, for now, that is not in the budget ;)

I'm very very tempted to try and find a way to get you some acoustical treatment into that room though. Honestly, acoustically treating that room will make a bigger difference in sound quality and any speaker upgrade. What you can do though is to "hide" your acoustic treatment budget into the "decor" budget ;)

I'm sure your wife is open to dressing up the room a bit. Try and get as many plush, absorbent materials into that room as you can. See if you can swing some big, thick drapes to go over the windows. Some nice, thick carpet for the floor or a nice, thick rug if it's hardwood. If you can find a way to put some leafy plants in the corners or have leafy plants hanging overhead, that will also help as those will work to diffuse the sound reflections.

If your wife is saying no to running speaker wire of any kind, I'm prone to doubt that she'd be supportive of "egg crate" sound absorbers plastering the walls, or 6" thick bass traps lining the corners :p But you can usually get away with things like plants, drapes, rugs, wall hangings and bookcases and you might even be able to "trick" her into putting those into the decorating budget rather than the home theater budget ;)

I can see right away why you would like the Klipsch sound in that room. The horn loaded tweeters are more directional, so you are getting less reflected sound, which makes them sound more detailed and clear than a lot of other speakers in that same situation.

I'm struggling a little bit to figure out why surround speakers are a complete no go. Your room is certainly capable of supporting them and they would work well in an enclosed room. There are a ton of options for flat speaker wire hidden under the carpet, hollow baseboards that can carry the wire while making the room look upscale or flat, paintable speaker wire that can perfectly blend into the baseboards. It sounds as though you've had this discussion already though, so I won't beat a dead horse :p Still, perhaps your wife just isn't aware of all of the many options that are out there now. :)

Sticking with only Best Buy makes this a bit difficult. You're really only looking at Klipsch, Polk or Def Tech. Out of the three, Klipsch would likely be my top choice for your room as it is.

The key to the whole system though is the subwoofer. To be honest, I'm most tempted to recommend that you keep your Klipsch B-3 bookshelf fronts. Add to them the matching C-3 center and then get yourself a darn good subwoofer.

To me, this would be the most efficient way to get a really good sounding 3.1 setup in that particular room (along with the "hidden" acoustical treatments that I mentioned).

The B-3 are capable bookshelf speakers. Obviously, not the "greatest in the world ever" :p But for your budget, you wouldn't be looking at any sort of massive upgrade anyway. Your current center and surround speakers do not match up in output or quality though and neither does your current sub.

So since this is a 3.1 system anyway, it makes the most sense to me to get the matching center to your existing fronts. That will even out the front soundstage and give you good detail and dynamics for the mid-range and higher frequencies.

Then, it's up to the subwoofer. As I said, this is the key to your whole system and a good sub, in that room, will bring the whole thing together and really give you a full and powerful sound for your movies.

In order to do that, I'd have to recommend going with one of the internet direct brands. Right off the top, the SVSound PB10-NSD jumps out as a terrific choice, but considering your budget, I think I'd have to give the nod to the HSU STF-2

The STF-2 is appropriate for your room size and a very accurate and capable sub. It'll blend brilliantly with your B-3 fronts and C-3 center. Just be sure to experiment with placement to find the very best location and be absolutely sure to sit it on top of a GRAMMA riser.

Simply put, if it were me in your situation, this is what I would do. The focus for me really is the subwoofer. After that, it doesn't make any sense to me to spend significant money on speakers that would essentially be a sideways move. You already have capable front speakers with the Klipsch B-3 bookshelves and the Klipsch design actually suits the needs of your room quite well by limiting reflections and enhancing detail. Giving them their matching C-3 center counterpart will bring your entire front soundstage to life.

Best of luck!
 
M

mudrummer99

Senior Audioholic
Thank you very much for you very well thought out response. I think I will be sticking with my B-3's and just upgrading the center and sub. That seems to make the most sense to me. As for the decorating, we both have very similar tastes so being able to steer that to some "useful" objects shouldn't be too hard at all. At least the room in wall to wall carpeted, the couch is over-sized and squishy, and we are looking to get a couple Sumosacs, which I think may help with bass diffusion (but that's just an assumption). My only up in the air is the sub that you recommended. I was thinking of a SuperCube instead. My biggest reason is that it is easy to demo these as opposed to an ID sub. I can also get SCII for just a touch more than that Hsu, and I can't believe (although I have never heard one) that the Hsu is going to beat out a sub that is 1200W (I know this doesn't mean too much) and has an extra 10Hz on the bottom (again not always 100% accurate). I have heard this sub in both a room about the size of mine and one much much larger and it seemed to perform well in both instances. A Gramma is a definite though. Also, I have to look at the fact that I am incredibly impatient and I get to take the SCII home with me, while I would have to wait about an excruciating week to get the Hsu :rolleyes: Thanks a million for your input and once I get moved and settled in and have the room up to post worthy, I'll get my pics up. This probably won't be until after the holidays though (gotta love retail schedules). Thanks again folks, and if anyone has anything else to add, I'm all ears.

Mike

P.S. If I did some how work surrounds into the mix (would come up with extra money for those) would you stick with the Klipsch surrounds or would you just hook up the small satellites for the QIII that I already own? I am a person that thinks the only place to truly skimp on audio (if you have to) is the surrounds.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
With regards to surround speakers (if you're able to work them into the design) - since your primary focus is movies, it isn't vital that the surround speakers perfectly match the front speakers. Most of the surround information in movies is ambience or sound effects. Personally, I'd be a fan of using some diffuse surround speakers in that room - something like the Klipsch Synergy S2. Diffuse surround speakers would work well in that room because it is enclosed and rectangular.

The SuperCube subs from Def Tech: I can't say I'm the biggest fan. What the SuperCube subs are to me is a darn good compromise design - but why compromise when you don't have to?

The SuperCubes are all about making as small an enclosure as possible while retaining high output levels. Def Tech achieves this by using as small an enclosure for the given driver size as possible - then it puts loads of power behind the driver and gives it two passive radiators rather than ports. It's basically the best way to have a small size, but retain high output, but accuracy and placement flexibility are the things that are compromised.

In a traditional, ported subwoofer, the lowest bass comes from the port, not the driver itself. The enclosure is used as a resonance chamber, so it has to be large in order to be "tuned" to a low bass frequency with a long port length. If you forego the port, you have two choices - either use an exceedingly long excursion driver (such as the JL Audio subs or the Emotiva subs or the HSU ULS-15) or use passive radiators to essentially increase the total surface area (which is what the SuperCubes do).

Whenever you use a sealed design, you have to use a TON more power to control the driver. You cannot compare the "1200 Watt" rating of the SuperCube to the "200 Watt" rating of the STF-2 at all. The STF-2 is basically as efficient a design as is possible, while the SuperCube is one of the least efficient designs.

Bottom line - the SuperCube is physically small and still capable of high output. But it sacrifices some accuracy for that design and you are very limited as to where you can place it. With its passive radiators facing in different directions and acting out of phase with the primary driver, the goal here is pure output loudness, but not accuracy and "finesse". It basically becomes a booming, rumbling box and you're paying more than you have to because it requires a massive power supply that isn't being used in a very efficient manner.

Just as another example, the JL Audio Fathom 13 is very very highly regarded as one of the best subwoofers out there. It is also well liked because, relatively speaking, it is physically fairly small (it's still big, but compared to other 13" subs, it's relatively small ;) ) It's quality and accuracy are top notch. And it achieves all of this by being a sealed design with an exceedingly long excursion driver controlled by a ridiculously powerful amp. And the result of all of that is that it is very very expensive.

On the flip side, there is the AV123 MFW-15. At about 1/5th the price, it is every bit the equal of the Fathom in terms of accuracy and output. But it achieves the same level of performance using a MUCH more efficient and therefore much less expensive design. It uses a physically larger driver (more surface area) a much larger enclosure and a port. And while everything about it may be physically bigger, it is able to use a significantly lower Wattage amp because of the much more efficient design.

Two ways to reach the same actual sound quality, but one requires WAY more amp power and much higher cost because of a much less efficient design.

I'm a huge fan of Dr. Hsu and his subwoofer designs because they are the peak of efficiency. In a nut shell, they are the highest performance possible at the lowest price and everything about their design is chosen for that purpose. They also end up being the least critical of placement. You obviously still need to account for room modes (cancellations and peaks), but other than that, you do not have to be concerned about their dispersion pattern due to their fundamentally sound design.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Much less expensive would be about $1k retail at BBY or about $500-600 somewhere else.

Mike
Mike, do you have access to Martin Logan (Magnolia) ? The Abyss retails at 1k there. Id take that over the STF2, and I like Hsu products to begin with.
 
M

mudrummer99

Senior Audioholic
Mike, do you have access to Martin Logan (Magnolia) ? The Abyss retails at 1k there. Id take that over the STF2, and I like Hsu products to begin with.
Yep, we do. I've never heard the Abyss since we never had one in the store to demo, but we do have the Dynamo it is a powerful little sub. More than likely, though, I will end up with SuperCube for 2 reasons. 1)Price-to-performance ratio is very nice and 2)WAF, she thinks it is cute. Thanks for the additional suggestion though, I will definitely have to give that some thought.

Mike
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
From what I have heard, albeit a while ago, the Abyss is a significant step up in both extension and output from the lil Dynamo. In fact, I think Im the only person on earth to be disappointed with the the Dynamo, and I really enjoy ML products, owning electrostats and a planar.

But is she's happy, everybody is happy. ;)
 
M

mudrummer99

Senior Audioholic
The only problem I ever had with the Dyanamo is that it was very hard to dial-in in our demo room, but that probably had more to do with the room and limited positioning choices than it did with the sub itself.

Mike
 
M

mudrummer99

Senior Audioholic
Hmm, just came up with another idea. What if I got 2 smaller subs and just ran a full-range set-up? (BTW, yes, very indecisive person) I've already ordered the C-2 (C-3's are no longer being carried). So if I wanted to get 2 subs to, would the SCIII's be a good choice or would I be better off with a cheaper sub? The center channel didn't even dent my budget, so as far as that goes I'm still fine. What do you folks think? Again, thanks for your patience and time.

Mike

PS I've mentioned this in some other threads, I haven't even turned on my sub in about 10 months, I'm not a huge bass head. I'd be more interested in just getting a good full range, I don't necessarily want to be punched in the chest, that'll come with the "dream" setup ;)
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Due to your budget, I'd have to say that you're right on the cusp of either getting one higher quality sub vs. two lesser quality subs.

Your room would certainly benefit from having two subwoofers for more even, flat frequency response. But I would never recommend getting two low quality subs in place of one high quality sub. Two high quality subs would be ideal, yes, but in this case, you would be better served with a single, high quality sub than two lesser quality subs.

I'm not sure where the facination with running the front L/R speakers full range comes from. You do not get the best sound that way. I think it may be a misconception that the ideal is to have 5 full range speakers all around plus two subwoofers for LFE only. But in any real world room, you do not get good sound that way. You get the best sound by having the subwoofer handle ALL of the bass from 80Hz on down. That means the summed bass signals from all 5 speakers as well as the LFE. Bass is non-directional and interacts completely with the room around it. You cannot seperate the room from the bass. They are completely joined. And because of that, you always get the best sound by having a dedicated speaker (the subwoofer) placed in as ideal a location within the room as possible. And that ideal location is almost never where any of the other 5 speakers are placed in order for them to sound their best.

Output is not a problem in your room. It is a medium-sized room and you do not need to worry that any decent subwoofer won't be able to pressurize that room. What is far more important in your room is getting high quality bass that is very well controlled.

I can understand liking the looks of the SuperCubes. They are about as small as it is possible to make a subwoofer. But as I said before, the goal with the SuperCubes is maximum output for their size, not necessarily the highest quality output. I certainly wouldn't "bash" them as a choice - they are capable and about as good as you can get if the petite size is a determining factor. And if their small size allows you to use two of them in your room, that would also be beneficial.

It would be a very tough "on the one hand vs. on the other hand" sort of situation IMO. Two SuperCube III would not play as low or as accurately as one single, higher quality subwoofer. But having two of them would allow you to get more even and smooth frequency response and their small size would allow you to place them in more ideal locations.

If we were to compare that to using two HSU STF-2 subwoofers, the HSU subs would easily sound more accurate and extend lower than the pair SuperCube III. But a lone HSU STF-2, that would be a tougher choice. It would deliver the deeper extension and better accuracy, but it would only deliver those qualities to a single seat - and that is assuming you could place it in an ideal location.

Tough choice, but I think perhaps the best way to come to a decision would be to make a list of your priorities and to put that list in order of importance. If budget is the biggest concern, then I would say that you should set a strict budget and stick to it. Do not play the game of "what could I get for just $100 more? $200 more?" Because we all know how that plays out :p

So figure out what are the really important factors and then try to put them in an ordered list. Very often, that will help you to see things more clearly and help you to make a better decision :)
 
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