My take on the bailout, part 1

aberkowitz

aberkowitz

Audioholic Field Marshall
I just wanted to add something light, stupid and completely random to lighten the mood before he responded. :)
Ahhh- always appreciated in these times... sorry for snapping back :D
 
aberkowitz

aberkowitz

Audioholic Field Marshall
Ya lost me on this one Aberkowitz:confused: Generally speaking, doesn't increasing interest rates tend to strenghten the value of a currency? When the Fed Funds Rate was in the 5% neighborhood the Euro and peso (oops dollar;)) were pretty close to 1:1 IIRC.

Mort (who still likes the feel of a double eagle in his hand anyway)
There are macroecon concepts called Unconvered and Covered Interest Parity that can explain this in great detail... but I'll try to give a short example. If the UK has a higher interest rate than the US, and the exchange rate is 1:1 (for simplicity sake), then as an investor the best thing to do is to convert your dollars into pounds and earn a higher interest rate. This is defined as an arbitrage opportunity. A free market generally does not allow arbitrage opportunities to exist, so a correction will have to occur. That correction can be one of the following- US Rates go up in the appropriate proportion, UK rates go back down in the appropriate proportion, or the exchange rate between the dollar and the pound changes. For this example let's hold interest rates constant- in order to make the equation work to abolish the arbitrage situation (which would happen in real life as more and more poeple took advantage) the US dollar would have to appreciate against the pound, so it would cost you more to change your dollars into pounds in order to take advantage of higher interest rates. Eventually, the dollar would appreciate to the point where there was no advantage of converting your dollars to pounds b/c the outcome would be equal on both sides.

To answer your direct question- you cannot explain exchange rates based on the historical normative value of an interest rate. You need to understand the actual changes going on in the market and what the market (market here being defined as currency buyers/sellers) is expecting (see my paragraph below) There are 3 factors that are all tied together (a golden triangle if you will)- interest rates, exchange rates, and monetary policy (how loose/tight money is). It is impossible successfully hold all three fixed at one time. Which is why in the US and in most developed countries, we set monetary policy and we set interest rates, but we let our currencies float in the market. You'll notice that countries who attempt to fix or peg their currencies end up with mismatches- the real value of their currency is different from the nominal value and often causes hyperinflation or currency crises (see Mexico and Latin/South America in the 70s, 80s, & 90s).

(Please note that I've simplified things greatly in the above example- this shows the long-term effect assuming that we eliminate all of the other "noise" in the market. In fact, what you'd probably actually see is a short term appreciation of the pound against the dollar to offset the expected long term depreciation, which would result in a change in the real interest rate one would receive from an investment as opposed to the nominal rate that the government sets- similar to how banks can't always pay/borrow at exactly the fed funds rate.)
 
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
Maybe you should stop because the first half of your statement shows that you know very little about currency valuation... the value of the dollar has nothing to do with the direction of the stock market. If you really feel that strongly about the gold standard, please explain to the rest of us why the gold standard is superior to what we have now?
:rolleyes: more than you think.
 
T

Treozen

Enthusiast
Agree here, disagree there

Is a bail-out needed? - Yes

Will it turn things around and "save" the economy? - doubtful

Will we look back and wonder why we didn't shoot the greedy bankers? Why wait to look back? [loads weapon].

All in all greed does seem to be the main factor - I'd also add lack of oversight, general stupidity and a market system that forgot what happens to all good things....

I agree that negotiating lower interest rates should be in the deal. I'm less in favor of reducing principles though. You could argue that Mr and Mrs Smith were hood-winked by their lender about the rates, were bamboozled by the brokers zealous assurances that the market was strong, getting stronger and forever would be strong and I'd even give in to a state of general buyer ignorance. Still, I would find it difficult to swallow any claim that a buyer didn't realize their $400,000 house was $400,000. I guess they could claim they were assured the house was...."Like...totally affordable on your income". Still, I see no reason to reward someone for their dubious decision to surrender their right to make reasonable financial decisions to a lender working on commission.

Maybe it sounds harsh, but lets also look at the ramifications - banks are already struggling - granted its largely their own fault, but do we want to add yet more debt by reducing principles? Its pretty safe to say the banks wont just roll over and do it, no I think its more likely the country will incur an even larger deficit to pay for it.

I say we make the banks reduce rates, negotiate innovative payment plans and help the buyer pay what they owe in a way that falls within their reasonable means. In this way we avoid foreclosures, prevent harm to consumer credit and through those, potentially bolster consumer confidence in the economy. And lets be honest, opinion on what the market looks like drives it about as much as actual facts. As to banks profits? I don't care - at this time that's secondary and they call all go near revenue neutral until this is resolved if you ask me. Lets help the consumer - not deliver them out of their obligations, but help them. Lets make banks pay a profit-price for their mistakes and lets make sure none of these big-wigs got rich off our misfortune.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
My take is that greed should not be rewarded.

Is a bail-out needed? - Yes

Will it turn things around and "save" the economy? - doubtful

Will we look back and wonder why we didn't shoot the greedy bankers? Why wait to look back? [loads weapon].

All in all greed does seem to be the main factor - I'd also add lack of oversight, general stupidity and a market system that forgot what happens to all good things....

I agree that negotiating lower interest rates should be in the deal. I'm less in favor of reducing principles though. You could argue that Mr and Mrs Smith were hood-winked by their lender about the rates, were bamboozled by the brokers zealous assurances that the market was strong, getting stronger and forever would be strong and I'd even give in to a state of general buyer ignorance. Still, I would find it difficult to swallow any claim that a buyer didn't realize their $400,000 house was $400,000. I guess they could claim they were assured the house was...."Like...totally affordable on your income". Still, I see no reason to reward someone for their dubious decision to surrender their right to make reasonable financial decisions to a lender working on commission.

Maybe it sounds harsh, but lets also look at the ramifications - banks are already struggling - granted its largely their own fault, but do we want to add yet more debt by reducing principles? Its pretty safe to say the banks wont just roll over and do it, no I think its more likely the country will incur an even larger deficit to pay for it.

I say we make the banks reduce rates, negotiate innovative payment plans and help the buyer pay what they owe in a way that falls within their reasonable means. In this way we avoid foreclosures, prevent harm to consumer credit and through those, potentially bolster consumer confidence in the economy. And lets be honest, opinion on what the market looks like drives it about as much as actual facts. As to banks profits? I don't care - at this time that's secondary and they call all go near revenue neutral until this is resolved if you ask me. Lets help the consumer - not deliver them out of their obligations, but help them. Lets make banks pay a profit-price for their mistakes and lets make sure none of these big-wigs got rich off our misfortune.
I was raised to plan anhed and only buy what I can afford, and this included time payments.

If the Schmucks bought a reasonable house to live in (or even flip after a few years) with traditional mortgage payments they could afford (or could lgically see growing into that position in a short time) then they should be fine. Should they have a problem, then a remedy should be provided. If they bought too bit a house for their personal use based on a banker's insistance that all would be wqell. that's predatory lending and a remedy should be offered as well.

If they took out the most money they could, bought the glitziest house they could find, made minimum payments on a non-traditional (zero inrterest?) mortgage, intended up-fromt to flip it for a profit, then they should have to deal with the consequences. This isn't a "home", it's an investment and investments always hold a risk factor.

As for the toxic mortgages, I blame a lot of this on the govetnment itself. It forcedthe banks to issue them, penalized those that refused and then vehemently fought any "real" oversight, particularly when the red flags were raised several years ago. They forced this situation on us.

It was a feeding frenzy to loan as much money as possible in order to sell these mortages to investors. But, then again, these investors should have known they were taking a risk up front. Some got rich and will not suffer any penalties. Only the taxpayers will suffer.

And, if they continue to offer these "toxic" mortgages, we're gonna be in a worse situation a few years down the road. I still hear radio ads for mortgages here and it makes me wonder...

I still see a lot of McMansions going up around here, but some seem to be stalled in the construction stage and less and less new construction. I wonder why?

So, in my book, if they offer anyhing but traditional fixed-rate mortgages that are based on a consumer's real ability to pay, we've still got a problem.
 
T

Treozen

Enthusiast
I was raised to plan anhed and only buy what I can afford, and this included time payments.

If the Schmucks bought a reasonable house to live in (or even flip after a few years) with traditional mortgage payments they could afford (or could lgically see growing into that position in a short time) then they should be fine. Should they have a problem, then a remedy should be provided. If they bought too bit a house for their personal use based on a banker's insistance that all would be wqell. that's predatory lending and a remedy should be offered as well.
I don't necessarily disagree - But the remedy would need to be very carefully planned, administered and somehow avoid abuse - I think my major concern is that I don't have allot of faith in either the government or the industry to do that well.

As for "toxic" mortgages, I have a feeling there will always be a class of lender that will offer them - regardless of current lessons. You cant legislate "anti-greed" and so long as there are people willing to buy more than they should, there will be someone peddling a loan to fit. Unless of course we go to total government oversight to the point of federalizing all lending....but that wont happen and I don't think we'd want it to anyway.

I guess we'll see.
 
MidnightSensi

MidnightSensi

Audioholic Samurai
700 billion and the market still went down.

Chrystler was bailed out something like 12 billion this week too, on the DL. It was a big deal a bit back at 1.3 billion, but 12 and it barely made news.

If you agree with the bailouts or not, I don't think this is going to tie it up. Expect more to come.

$2,300 out of each of our pockets for this one.

If the bailout was to end the credit freeze, we are still scared and throwing our money at it doesn't seem to make us feel more comfortible.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
As for the toxic mortgages, I blame a lot of this on the govetnment itself. It forced the banks to issue them, penalized those that refused and then vehemently fought any "real" oversight, particularly when the red flags were raised several years ago. They forced this situation on us.
Great post Mark.
You are among the handful of people that 'gets it.'
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
I don't necessarily disagree - But the remedy would need to be very carefully planned, administered and somehow avoid abuse - I think my major concern is that I don't have allot of faith in either the government or the industry to do that well.
I agree 100%. Unfortuantely, some have fought against oversight of these abuses in the past, even as far back as 2004 -2005. Even more unfortunate, these same people are involved in crafting this bailout. :mad:

As for "toxic" mortgages, I have a feeling there will always be a class of lender that will offer them - regardless of current lessons.
Here in Jersey we have a term for people like that. We call them "loan Sharks" and your kneecaps are yoour collateral. :rolleyes: (Never, ever feed me a straight line :D)

You cant legislate "anti-greed" and so long as there are people willing to buy more than they should, there will be someone peddling a loan to fit. Unless of course we go to total government oversight to the point of federalizing all lending....but that wont happen and I don't think we'd want it to anyway.

I guess we'll see.
Going forward, since the risks are (or should be after this) known to all involved, this would then become a matter between the lender and the borrower alone. Caveat emptor, and don't come crying to anyone else when their house of cards comes tumbling down.
 
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MUDSHARK

MUDSHARK

Audioholic Chief
) Public funds must function to increase the capital of distressed financial companies, not simply to take bad assets off of the balance sheet at market value (which may improve the 'quality' of the balance sheet, but does nothing to improve the capital cushion and therefore little to avoid future runs on the institution).

2) In return for these funds, the government should NOT take equity (which is a subordinate claim and also creates potential conflicts of interest), but instead should take a SENIOR claim that precedes not only the stockholders but also the senior bondholders in the event the company defaults anyway. Congress may need to make some modification to existing bankruptcy law or provide for expedited bondholder approval to do this, but essentially, the government's claim should be subordinate only to customers in the event of default, and senior to both stockholders and bondholders. However, it should also be countable as capital for the purposes of satisfying bank capital requirements.

3) Ideally, the rate of interest on such funds should be relatively high (which will encourage these firms to substitute private financing as soon as possible), but actual payment should be made once the firms are again profitable so that the payment burden does not weaken them during the present recession.

4) The bill should allow for expedited bankruptcy resolution for these institutions, so that in the event of failure, the 'good' bank (all assets and customer liabilities, but excluding debt to bondholders) can be cut away and liquidated to an acquirer as a 'whole bank' sale. For nearly all of these institutions, the debt to bondholders is far more than sufficient to absorb any losses even in the event of bankruptcy. The current difficulty is that the bankruptcy process itself draws out the process of taking receivership, cutting away the good bank so that it can be sold to an acquirer, and delivering the proceeds as a residual to bondholders. Streamlining that process is one of the best ways to ensure that the failure of one institution does not have 'systemic' effects.

5) To assist homeowners, the bill should allow for a reduction of mortgage principal during foreclosure, but the mortgage lender should also receive a Property Appreciation Right (PAR) that gives the original lender a claim on future property appreciation up to that original mortgage amount. In other words, the homeowner receives a substantially lower mortgage balance and payment burden now, but the lender stands to be made whole over time through property appreciation rather than immediate burdens on the homeowner to make payments.
To the Congress of the United States

In 2006, the president of the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis noted “Everyone knows that a policy of bailouts will increase their number.” This week, Congress is being asked to hastily consider a monstrous bailout plan on a scale nearly equivalent to the existing balance sheet of the Federal Reserve.

As an economist and investment manager, I am concerned that the plan advocated by Treasury is essentially a plan to bail out the bondholders of financial institutions that made bad lending decisions, with little help to homeowners that are actually in financial distress. It is difficult to believe that the U.S. government is contemplating taking on the bad assets of these institutions at probable taxpayer loss and effectively immunizing the bondholders (and shareholders) of these companies.

While it is certainly in the public interest to avoid the dislocations that would result from a disorderly failure of highly interconnected financial institutions, there are better ways for public funds to accomplish this, other than by protecting corporate bondholders while homeowners remain in distress.

Consider a simplified balance sheet of a typical investment bank:

Good assets: $95

Assets gone bad: $5

TOTAL ASSETS: $100

Liabilities to customers/counterparties: $80

Debt to bondholders of company: $17

Shareholder equity: $3

TOTAL LIABILITIES AND EQUITY: $100

Now, as these bad assets get written off, shareholder equity is also reduced. What has happened in recent months is that this equity has become insufficient, so that the company technically becomes insolvent provided that the bondholders have to be paid off:
Good assets: $95

Assets gone bad (written off): $0

TOTAL ASSETS: $95

Liabilities to customers/counterparties: $80

Debt to bondholders of company: $17

Shareholder equity: (-$2)

TOTAL LIABILITIES AND EQUITY: $95

These institutions are not failing because 95% of the assets have gone bad. They are failing because 5% of the assets have gone bad and they over-stretched their capital. At the heart of the problem is “gross leverage” – the ratio of total assets taken on by the company to its shareholder equity. The sequence of failures we've observed in recent months, starting with Bear Stearns, has followed almost exactly in order of their gross leverage multiples. After Bear Stearns, Fannie Mae, and Freddie Mac went into crisis, Lehman and Merrill Lynch followed. Morgan Stanley, and Hank Paulson's former employer, Goldman Sachs, remain the most leveraged companies on Wall Street, with gross leverage multiples above 20.

Look at the insolvent balance sheet again. The appropriate solution is not for the government to purchase bad assets with public money. The only way such a transaction would add to the institution's capital would be for the government to overpay for those assets. Rather, the government should either a) provide new capital, taking a claim in front of the company's bondholders and stockholders, or b) execute a receivership of the failed institution and immediately conduct a “whole bank” sale – selling the bank's assets and liabilities as a package, but ex the debt to bondholders, which preserves the ongoing business without loss to customers and counterparties, wipes out shareholder equity, and gives bondholders partial (perhaps even nearly complete) recovery with the proceeds.

The key is to recognize that for nearly all of the institutions currently at risk of failure, there exists a cushion of bondholder capital sufficient to absorb all probable losses, without any need for the public to bear the cost.

For example, consider Morgan Stanley's balance sheet as of 8/31/08. Total assets were $988.8 billion, with shareholder equity (including junior subordinated debt) of $42.1 billion, for a gross leverage ratio of 23.5. However, the company also has approximately $200 billion in long-term debt to its bondholders, primarily consisting of senior debt with an average maturity of about 6 years. Why on earth would Congress put the U.S. public behind these bondholders?

The stockholders and bondholders of the company itself should be the first to bear losses, not the public
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Gee. Sharky. That's a long post. Let me paraphrase it for ya.

The stockholders and bondholders of the company itself should be the first to bear losses, not the public
That pretty much says it all in my book.

Seriously, great post. ;)

I particularly like item 5
 
MUDSHARK

MUDSHARK

Audioholic Chief
I cannot take credit for all of it as three of my fellow accountants and myself have been discussing this at weekly luncheons lately. The post was more or less a summary of our positions.
 
MidnightSensi

MidnightSensi

Audioholic Samurai
Dow is below 10,000 and now they are talking about more bailouts up to 900 billion. Sucks to pay for what I'm not even into. I never watched the stock market until now that I'm somehow supposed to bail these ****ers out.

I cannot take credit for all of it as three of my fellow accountants and myself have been discussing this at weekly luncheons lately. The post was more or less a summary of our positions.
luncheons, haha. I don't think I've ever had a "luncheon." You sound like an accountant man, haha. Did you guys have the cob salad? :D
 
aberkowitz

aberkowitz

Audioholic Field Marshall
Dow is below 10,000 and now they are talking about more bailouts up to 900 billion. Sucks to pay for what I'm not even into. I never watched the stock market until now that I'm somehow supposed to bail these ****ers out.
Stock market is the least important market to watch these days. Follow the bond and rate markets if you really want to get sense of going on. 1 month t-bills are yielding .1% this morning (Actually up from .07%), which means that investors are willing to accept nothing in return for their money just to keep it safe. The three month and six month bills are approaching record lows for the decade as well.

LIBOR has reached a high for the past several years at 4.3%- which means that companies cannot issue corporate debt without paying extremely high prices, and anybody with an adjustable rate mortgage that is tied to LIBOR is going to see their payments fly through the roof.

In the corporate world- nobody wants to lend anybody money for a period longer than overnight, maybe a week if they're lucky. The commericial paper market has shrunk by 10% over the past several months- drying up another source of funding. This will all be much worse than the stock market once companies are unable to borrow money to meet their bi-monthly payroll obligations.
 
R

rnatalli

Audioholic Ninja
The good news is that demand for US Treasuries has not slowed meaning more can be issued without saturating the market. People around the globe still see the US dollar as safe which will push it up despite all this chaos.
 
MidnightSensi

MidnightSensi

Audioholic Samurai
The commericial paper market has shrunk by 10% over the past several months- drying up another source of funding. This will all be much worse than the stock market once companies are unable to borrow money to meet their bi-monthly payroll obligations.
Worse than the 159,000 per month job loss rate currently? When will the darkness pass?
 
M

Mort Corey

Senior Audioholic
Worse than the 159,000 per month job loss rate currently? When will the darkness pass?
From looking aound the globe recently, the party may just be getting started;)

Mort (now stockpiling whiskey & gunpowder:D)
 
yettitheman

yettitheman

Audioholic General
My economic bailout plan:
1: Automatic weapons if avalible... else, grenade launchers and rifles.
2: Lots of ammunition... using the bailout money.
3: Use the bailout generously; hit the targets multiple times in the head.
(warning: use of this plan may induce rage in certain Rosie O' Donnel's)
4: ???
5: Profit
 
aberkowitz

aberkowitz

Audioholic Field Marshall
My economic bailout plan:
1: Automatic weapons if avalible... else, grenade launchers and rifles.
2: Lots of ammunition... using the bailout money.
3: Use the bailout generously; hit the targets multiple times in the head.
(warning: use of this plan may induce rage in certain Rosie O' Donnel's)
4: ???
5: Profit
If shooting Rosie O'Donnell will open up credit markets, where can I sign up??? :D:D:D
 

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