offshoot of High end Focal or high end B&W

AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
But neither can touch my MB Quarts.:D And, my dad can beat-up both of your dads as well.;)
Oh, no you didn't.

Yeah, well, my audio cables sound better than yours. So there.:p
 
E

EJ1

Audioholic Chief
Can we stay on topic? It seems like there a group of people that try to take every thread off-topic. This particular thread is a great learning tool and I hate that it might not continue due to off-topic content.
 
Spkr_Bldr

Spkr_Bldr

Full Audioholic
We were discussing data over the frequency range of 1000Hz, I do believe.
True, but every conversation evolves ... I'm saying that CSD only persists because it's a 'traditional' measurment, not because of it's value. CSD's have processing artifacts across their entire range, and present no information below 1000hz - which is where the majority of musical information exists. That's why most in the know these days use them for nothing more than casual observations. All the measurements I refered to earlier are far more valuable, and show unique data instead of just a transformed impulse.
 
Spkr_Bldr

Spkr_Bldr

Full Audioholic
I seem to have gotten to the the point in my life that I don't listen to a lot of perceptual research but a lot to to music, but hey, they just me......
That's me too ...

I measure the s**t out of everything I build, but in the end all that matters is what my ears tell me ... and the feedback from the ears of other listeners. There's not a speaker manufacturer on the planet that produces speakers solely on what a mic and some software tells them. Likewise recommending speakers solely on what a mic and some software says is foolish.

You CAN train your ears, just as wine experts can train their palate using the aroma wheel. And for years, parts of working my way up to producing commercial speakers has been training my ears ... just as part has been learning to collect proper measurment data, and to correlate that data to what my ears are hearing. It took a lot of effort, but I'm to a point now where I absolutely trust my ears.
 
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
Can we stay on topic? It seems like there a group of people that try to take every thread off-topic. This particular thread is a great learning tool and I hate that it might not continue due to off-topic content.
We are reading, and enjoying too.;) Just trying to help keep the moods cool.:cool: A little humor never hurt anyone.:)
 
N

Nuance AH

Audioholic General
For what it's wroth, when I originally said I do not think anything in the B&W line is worth buying until the 802D, I was talking about their current line. I didn't think they manufactured the 805S anymore. If not, this is all spawned off a misunderstanding. Gee, I bet that hardly happens around here...:rolleyes: People need to cool off and not get so upset every time someone disagrees with them. This hobby is too subjective for that kind of nonsense.

Whether you agree with me or not, I still think the best way to purchase speakers is to get passed all the technical jargon, go out and audition using your own ears and the bring the final candidates back home to see if they create the same synergy in your room using your gear. Measurements help narrow the field a great deal, but I would never purchase based off them alone.
Can we stay on topic? It seems like there a group of people that try to take every thread off-topic. This particular thread is a great learning tool and I hate that it might not continue due to off-topic content.
I think the conversation has moved to a pissing match/battle of egos. At least I learned something, though.
 
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bandphan

bandphan

Banned
Can we stay on topic? It seems like there a group of people that try to take every thread off-topic. This particular thread is a great learning tool and I hate that it might not continue due to off-topic content.
May i also suggest that aside from tons of reading if there is a strong interest that you become a member of associations that cover these fields , with attendance to seminars
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
That's me too ...

I measure the s**t out of everything I build, but in the end all that matters is what my ears tell me ... and the feedback from the ears of other listeners. There's not a speaker manufacturer on the planet that produces speakers solely on what a mic and some software tells them. Likewise recommending speakers solely on what a mic and some software says is foolish.

You CAN train your ears, just as wine experts can train their palate using the aroma wheel. And for years, parts of working my way up to producing commercial speakers has been training my ears ... just as part has been learning to collect proper measurment data, and to correlate that data to what my ears are hearing. It took a lot of effort, but I'm to a point now where I absolutely trust my ears.
You seem to think you are immune to psychological bias; at least your comments imply it. You also appear to believe your personal sighted/biased experiences are in some way comparable to proper scientific protocols used for listening evaluations by real researchers; at least your comments imply it.

On both counts, this is wishful thinking. Not you, nor anyone, is immune to psychological biases.

-Chris
 
Spkr_Bldr

Spkr_Bldr

Full Audioholic
You seem to think you are immune to psychological bias; at least your comments imply it. You also appear to believe your personal sighted/biased experiences are in some way comparable to proper scientific protocols used for listening evaluations by real researchers; at least your comments imply it.

On both counts, this is wishful thinking. Not you, nor anyone, is immune to psychological biases.
Like we didn't see this coming ...

You recommend speakers based on measurements alone, and limited ones at that. I recommend speakers based on combination of measurements and listening, with the ultimate deciding factor being my ears.

What does everybody else think is 'correct' method?

About the perceptive research, I get it. I've read all the papers you have, possibly even more. I have a couple of Toole's books, including his latest published just this year. But he and Harman have done no research on non-linear distortion or their impact, Geddes has but I disagree with his conclusion as do many others in the field. Anybody else want to read a bit without paying for the AES papers, here's some links

http://www.gedlee.com/downloads/The Perception of Distortion.pdf
http://www.harman.com/about_harman/technology_leadership.aspx

I believe the threshold for audibility is a bit lower than Toole has at times indicated, more like the .5-.7% range. But that's fine, I agree with just about all his other findings.

So what? The point isn't about that ... the point is foolishness of recommending a speaker based solely on a spattering of measurements taken by a 3rd party.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
You recommend speakers based on measurements alone, and limited ones at that. I recommend speakers based on combination of measurements and listening, with the ultimate deciding factor being my ears.
Human hearing can not hear things that escape measurement. Only things that escape analysis is by fault of the person reviewing the data, presuming a sufficient set of measurements to determine a specific thing is present.


About the perceptive research, I get it. I've read all the papers you have, possibly even more. I have a couple of Toole's books, including his latest published just this year. But he and Harman have done no research on non-linear distortion or their impact, Geddes has but I disagree with his conclusion as do many others in the field. Anybody else want to read a bit without paying for the AES papers, here's some links

http://www.gedlee.com/downloads/The Perception of Distortion.pdf
http://www.harman.com/about_harman/technology_leadership.aspx

I believe the threshold for audibility is a bit lower than Toole has at times indicated, more like the .5-.7% range. But that's fine, I agree with just about all his other findings.
For music program, James Moire, has reviewed and discussed non-linear distortion data as it related to THD for several decades om regards to perceptual testing. His conclusion is that in terms of THD of a standard harmonic spectrum distribution, such as that with the average solid state amplifer operating in the non-clipping range, which happens to have a very similar spectral distribution as compared to the average speaker, that about 2 percent THD is required to be audible to sensitive listeners on music program, and recommends that 1 percent or under be implemented as a safety net. Of course, specific test signals, such as isolated sine waves, can increase audibility by several orders of a magnitude.

So what? The point isn't about that ... the point is foolishness of recommending a speaker based solely on a spattering of measurements taken by a 3rd party.
Sufficient measurements describe the primary characteristics. The speaker in question, based on the measurements, and presuming B&W did not leave gross non-linear distortion, a very safe assumption, the measurements describe a rather neutral mid-treble module with lower cabinet resonances than normal.

That you do not understand very how to correlate measurements to audiblity is no fault of mine. But it apparently is yours, since you don't really respect any type of scientific procedure enough to use this process yourself for accurate evaluation(s). I subject virtually everything to careful blinded/randomized testing for accurate analysis. It may take a lot more time - but it is worth it to remove one's subconscious bias from skewing the result(s). I don't depend on, nor trust my ears beyond anything but a preliminary evaluation for anything important without bias controls.

-Chris
 
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Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
the ultimate deciding factor being my ears.
Sorry to butt in to a debate that's beyond my depth. I'll make it quick.
I think the findings of your ears would carry more weight if they were blind folded. :)
 
J

jsholland70

Audioholic Intern
I have owned numerous B&Ws and loved them but I have to say I just heard the new Revels and was blown away.
 
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