offshoot of High end Focal or high end B&W

Warpdrv

Warpdrv

Audioholic Ninja
Well I certainly didn't expect to start all this up...... It was just a honest question, in which I was looking to learn... Sorry goes out to the OP and I'm glad it was spawned off into a new thread...
 
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
I think it's all good. I know I love to read the technical stuff. Even though I don't get most of it, I enjoy being surrounded by the intelligence. Lets you know the members are actually qualified to answer the question.
 
Spkr_Bldr

Spkr_Bldr

Full Audioholic
Ok, you guys want to insist there are no audible resonances in the 805S woofer ... explain to me the dip at 800hz with a shelf of energy storage starting at 1500hz. I know exactly what it is, I've seen it 1000 times in my own measurments. It's clearly there, whether it's audible or not I'm not going to say based just on those measurements because doing so would be irresponsible. I do know from my own personal experience that THIS type of resonance, and the amplitude shown, IS audible in drivers I've used. There's also clearly an ultrasonic resonance in the tweeter that will propogate down through the octaves as odd harmonics, but all hard dome tweeters show that behavior and it's typically of little relevance or impact.

I see nothing spectacular in the 805S measurements, certainly nothing to single it out as 'exeptionally linear' or distinguished from others in the same price sector. But none-the-less, my point is the data presented simply isn't enough to draw any conclusions. The 805S is a fine speaker, sure ... but I only say so based on personal experience, not some 200x200 thumbnails of a couple measurements.
 
avaserfi

avaserfi

Audioholic Ninja
Have either of you ever actually owned, or extensively listened to, a B&W 805S?
I have spent significant amount of time with the 805S in a shop, but that is besides the point as I would not make a recommendations based on my biased experience.

It seems as though the two of you only use incomplete and inconclusive (as all measurements of loudspeakers are) measurements on which to base your opinions. I have a serious problem with that, especially when it comes to telling others how to spend their money. Over the last 3 years I've probably taken 50,000 measurements of individual drivers and complete systems. But more importantly I've spend thousands of hours listening, and what I learned is that NO loudspeakers measurements I know of are enough to draw conclusions.
Proper understanding of credible research as it regards to human perception as it correlates to loudspeaker measurements is a subject that has been covered by the AES many times. Not only have thousands of participants been used by a variety of researchers whom have all achieved similar (if not the same) results. There have even been extremely successful mathematical models, using this research, that are able to use anechoic measured response of a loudspeaker and using a computer model achieve a near perfect correlation [r = 0.995] of preference to these measurements [1].

It has been shown time and time again that various loudspeaker measurement are directly correlated to listener preference. Further understanding of these measurements allows them to be related directly to specific aspects of listening experience.

In all honesty, I see no point in comparing how many drivers one has had through their hands or hours spent listening. One can have various degrees of understanding with regard to the science of a subject and still participate successfully in the endeavor.

[1] Olive, E. Sean. Multiple Regression Model For Predicting Loudspeaker Preference - Part 2. Harman International. Convention Paper 6190. October 2004.

If you're going to come to any sort of conclusions based on measurements alone, you need a LOT more data than is given by Stereophile. CSD and on-axis FR are the same data, off-axis FR is good data, and accelerometer readings are good data too, but the sum of these are NOT enough to make any conclusions. There simply are too-many unknowns.
While the Stereophile measurements are not ideal, yes. Fortunately, the Stereophile measurements are good enough to draw quality conclusions if one has a strong knowledge of previously mentioned credible research and understanding of driver/loudspeaker design.

Ideal measurements would involve:

  • 0-90 degree horizontal measurements - in 10 degree increments - 1 Meter
  • +/-45 degree vertical measurements - in 5 degree increments - 1 Meter
  • CSD - 1 Meter
  • SPL vs. THD at 80db, 85db, 90db, 95db, 100db - 1 Meter
  • Enclosure resonance measurements - accelerometer readings roughly considering the total radiation surface area
  • Sensitivity measurement
  • Impedance
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
It seems as though the two of you only use incomplete and inconclusive (as all measurements of loudspeakers are) measurements on which to base your opinions. I have a serious problem with that, especially when it comes to telling others how to spend their money.
Actually, the measurements here are very informative. And they are enough to recommend it as a linear device for the purposes I suggested it for. The lower than normal cabinet resonance is also a major factor here, at this price range.


Over the last 3 years I've probably taken 50,000 measurements of individual drivers and complete systems. But more importantly I've spend thousands of hours listening, and what I learned is that NO loudspeakers measurements I know of are enough to draw conclusions.
It is no fault of mine if you have not made yourself familiar enough with the founding perceptual research in order to correlate the magnitude, of specific types of measurements, and the complex factors that determine audibility on human subjects. However, I have specialized in this field of study, and design accordingly with expected results in almost every case. I add in randomized double blinded testing, also, as this is the only true way to evaluate things. Proper understanding of the measurements in relation to human perception is critical to understand the actual effect measurement variables play.

If you're going to come to any sort of conclusions based on measurements alone, you need a LOT more data than is given by Stereophile. CSD and on-axis FR are the same data, off-axis FR is good data, and accelerometer readings are good data too, but the sum of these are NOT enough to make any conclusions. There simply are too-many unknowns.
The only unknown here is non-linear distortion. It can be presumed pretty safely that B&W did not design this system and leave significant distortion as to be audible in music program.

I have heard 805s' a fair amount, a good friend is a manager at a local B&W dealer called The Sound Room, and he's a B&W fanboy ... and thus makes me listen to a pair whenever I visit :rolleyes: They're a fine speaker, I'd say they'd be a great option at around $1000-$1500 ... but at $2800 there are MANY better options.
It really does not matter what you(or I) think of them in their inherent response so long as their is no gross distortion or severe FR anomalies, or severe resonance(which in fact many people do not identify properly though they hear it and it negatively affects their impressions). The frequency response is really undesirable in the treble here for using for most commercial music without tonal shaping. In addition, it likely needs more BSC compensation. But the weakness of it sounding ideal used by itself is exactly what makes it so good for manipulation: it's neutrality. This is a very linear device given it's price range - and it's trivial to adjust these things to ideal preference in a DSP unit such as I suggested. There is no magic or mysterious factor(s) at play. I have studied this field of perceptual research and conducted my extensive double blinded tests of many factors - most things people like to claim(and this specifically includes man experienced DIYers and professional designers alike) are nothing more than speculations based upon incomplete understanding and relying upon one's biased sighted listening tests. The measured performance here depicts a speaker that is excellent for the price range for the specific purposes that I outlined in my first post.

-Chris
 
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WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Ok, you guys want to insist there are no audible resonances in the 805S woofer ... explain to me the dip at 800hz with a shelf of energy storage starting at 1500hz. I know exactly what it is, I've seen it 1000 times in my own measurments. It's clearly there, whether it's audible or not I'm not going to say based just on those measurements because doing so would be irresponsible.
Well, there certainly are no audible resonances related to cone resonance, at or around the crossover frequency. The resonance you indicated before, in the range of 1500-2000Hz, as I stated before and will repeat, this would be not audible, or barely audible on some select recordings, according to the highly credible perceptual research that I correlated it to. Nothing to be concerned about - you will not find any perfect or near perfect speaker behavior for a wholel speaker system in this price range. The anomaly may be related to a material propagation reflection off of the surround back to the driver center.

I see nothing spectacular in the 805S measurements, certainly nothing to single it out as 'exeptionally linear' or distinguished from others in the same price sector. But none-the-less, my point is the data presented simply isn't enough to draw any conclusions. The 805S is a fine speaker, sure ... but I only say so based on personal experience, not some 200x200 thumbnails of a couple measurements.
But indeed, it's combination of relatively flat amplitude response, off axis response and cabinet resonance level do single it out as compared to most in this price range. It would make a superb mid-treble module when properly crossed over to stereo subwoofer modules places within 1/2 wavelength distance of the crossover point of each main.

-Chris
 
Spkr_Bldr

Spkr_Bldr

Full Audioholic
Well, there certainly are no audible resonances related to cone resonance, at or around the crossover frequency. The resonance you indicated before, in the range of 1500-2000Hz, as I stated before and will repeat, this would be not audible, or barely audible on some select recordings, according to the highly credible perceptual research that I correlated it to. Nothing to be concerned about - you will not find any perfect or near perfect speaker behavior for a wholel speaker system in this price range. The anomaly may be related to a material propagation reflection off of the surround back to the driver center.
It's a cone edge resonance, not a mechanical impedance mismatch from the cone edge/surround junction or a surround resonance. How I know is like a fingerprint that comes from thousands of measurments taken myself. When you see a narrow (relatively) dip followed by broader (relatively) energy storage shelf it's most likely from the cone edge moving independantly from the cone interior. I couldn't say with absolute certainty from those measurements however, of course. But my experience is that sort of 'non-linearity' of that amplitude and Q can be audible. And I doubt you could show an AES study that would prove otherwise. Without more resolution and distortion data you simply cannot. But that IS proof of a potentially significant 'issue'.

But indeed, it's combination of relatively flat amplitude response, off axis response and cabinet resonance level do single it out as compared to most in this price range. It would make a superb mid-treble module when properly crossed over to stereo subwoofer modules places within 1/2 wavelength distance of the crossover point of each main.

-Chris
I've not once said the 805S is a poor speaker, in fact I said it was a fine speaker. But at that price point, there are others that not only sound better but measure better ... plenty others. And yes it would make a nice system paired with properly integrated subs, just not what I'd recommend. I just jumped in because I think you're off in your evaluation of the measurements and singling it out as the best choice.

And I would appreciate you and avaserfi stopping talking down your nose to me as if you have far deeper understanding of AES studies than I.
 
avaserfi

avaserfi

Audioholic Ninja
It's a cone edge resonance, not a mechanical impedance mismatch from the cone edge/surround junction or a surround resonance. How I know is like a fingerprint that comes from thousands of measurments taken myself. When you see a narrow (relatively) dip followed by broader (relatively) energy storage shelf it's most likely from the cone edge moving independantly from the cone interior. I couldn't say with absolute certainty from those measurements however, of course. But my experience is that sort of 'non-linearity' of that amplitude and Q can be audible. And I doubt you could show an AES study that would prove otherwise. Without more resolution and distortion data you simply cannot. But that IS proof of a potentially significant 'issue'.
In post 8 within this thread I specifically reference an article that deals directly with all forms of resonance as it relates to audibility in varying situations. This highly credible research was not only peer reviewed, but repeated in multiple studies with similar results.

I've not once said the 805S is a poor speaker, in fact I said it was a fine speaker. But at that price point, there are others that not only sound better but measure better ... plenty others. And yes it would make a nice system paired with properly integrated subs, just not what I'd recommend. I just jumped in because I think you're off in your evaluation of the measurements and singling it out as the best choice.
It is possible that there are better alternatives, but there is the limitation of having a small pool of credibly measured speakers. Such a claim is simply useless without actual offerings that could potentially be superior. Perhaps you could make such a offering?

And I would appreciate you and avaserfi stopping talking down your nose to me as if you have far deeper understanding of AES studies than I.
So far as I can tell there has been no evidence of a 'deep understanding' of the [or any] credible research, but rather the opposite. This statement is primarily based on constant side stepping of the issue of relevant research. Many times specific research has been cited in this discussion, never once has a reply been made with regard to these citations, but rather the issue ignored.
 
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Spkr_Bldr

Spkr_Bldr

Full Audioholic
While the Stereophile measurements are not ideal, yes. Fortunately, the Stereophile measurements are good enough to draw quality conclusions if one has a strong knowledge of previously mentioned credible research and understanding of driver/loudspeaker design.

Ideal measurements would involve:

  • 0-90 degree horizontal measurements - in 10 degree increments - 1 Meter
  • +/-45 degree vertical measurements - in 5 degree increments - 1 Meter
  • CSD - 1 Meter
  • SPL vs. THD at 80db, 85db, 90db, 95db, 100db - 1 Meter
  • Enclosure resonance measurements - accelerometer readings roughly considering the total radiation surface area
  • Sensitivity measurement
  • Impedance
I don't see the Sterophile data as enough to draw conclusions. I spent some time talking with Linkwitz last year, and he agreed as well that without time domain measurements the picture is muddy at best ... and that CSD is a relatively worthless measurement. ETC curves, Schroeder Integration, Burst-Decay, and Energy-Time curves are all possibilities and are crucial. Also THD is only marginally useful on it's own, you also need details of harmonics involved and intermoduation.

In talking with others in the industry, it's being tossed around in circles that current distortion measurments as a whole need to be re-evaluated. Much more appropriate would be ability to measure distortion in the time domain as well. And I know of at least one measurement software developer currently trying to create a method for doing just that.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
IWhen you see a narrow (relatively) dip followed by broader (relatively) energy storage shelf it's most likely from the cone edge moving independantly from the cone interior........

......I couldn't say with absolute certainty from those measurements however, of course. But my experience is that sort of 'non-linearity' of that amplitude and Q can be audible. And I doubt you could show an AES study that would prove otherwise. Without more resolution and distortion data you simply cannot. But that IS proof of a potentially significant 'issue'......
Well, exactly, you can't say for certain, as this would require laser analysis to be certain. But that is really beside the point -- the main importance here is the measured result and it's implications on audibility with music program.

The resolution is perfectly adequate. The signal to floor is more than adequate to relate to audibility. The gate length is just sufficient enough here to give adequate frequency resolution of that bandwidth in this case, also. The Q of the resonance and it's relative level to the signal, cross correlated with the audibility graphs concludes that it would be non audible to potentially slightly audible, depending on the program material, and assuming listener of maximum sensitivities. In fact, the actual frequency response dip is going to be more audible than the actual resonance here. And it's not a significant dip, really, based on the overall characteristics of this device compared to the compromises you must make with others.

I've not once said the 805S is a poor speaker, in fact I said it was a fine speaker. But at that price point, there are others that not only sound better but measure better ... plenty others. And yes it would make a nice system paired with properly integrated subs, just not what I'd recommend. I just jumped in because I think you're off in your evaluation of the measurements and singling it out as the best choice.
Feel free to recommend other commercial speakers that have a notably superior combination of traits(cabinet resonance, driver/crossover resonance, linearity and off axis linearity) for the price range. I can't know all that is available, and perhaps there is an even superior example. However, this is certainly the better example of most that I have reviewed.

-Chris
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
I don't see the Sterophile data as enough to draw conclusions. I spent some time talking with Linkwitz last year, and he agreed as well that without time domain measurements the picture is muddy at best ... and that CSD is a relatively worthless measurement. ETC curves, Schroeder Integration, Burst-Decay, and Energy-Time curves are all possibilities and are crucial. Also THD is only marginally useful on it's own, you also need details of harmonics involved and intermoduation.
Toole and Olive explicit state how and why waterfall response IS specifically valid and useful. It is critical, to ascertain audibility of a resonance, that you can define it's relative level to the main signal, it's Q and it's frequency. Analyzing narrow time windows of the impulse, these things can be ascertained.

And I never seen a credible example demonstrating that CSD plots were grossly inaccurate and as a result not useful. The CSD is derived directly from the impulse response, which contains the linear distortion information.

-Chris
 
Spkr_Bldr

Spkr_Bldr

Full Audioholic
Well, a couple that immediately pop into mind that I'd take over the 805S are the Usher Tiny Dancer, ACI Sapphire XL, SP Tech Timepiece, Revel Ultima Gem, maybe a Dyn Confidence C1. Also possibly the Focal Mini Utopia Be the OP mentioned, and I remember loving the Eben monitors I heard last year at RMAF. And I've tried not to toot my own horn, but the Monitor I'm taking to RMAF next week meets all your measurment criteria for a great speaker ... and has been heard by about 50 people thus far in 3 different rooms with universal praise, and 4 people wanting to buy them on the spot :)
 
Spkr_Bldr

Spkr_Bldr

Full Audioholic
Toole and Olive explicit state how and why waterfall response IS specifically valid and useful. It is critical, to ascertain audibility of a resonance, that you can define it's relative level to the main signal, it's Q and it's frequency. Analyzing narrow time windows of the impulse, these things can be ascertained.

And I never seen a credible example demonstrating that CSD plots were grossly inaccurate and as a result not useful. The CSD is derived directly from the impulse response, which contains the linear distortion information.

-Chris
The problem with CSD's is that they show nothing under 1000hz, and while the data can be useful there simply are better ways now to see what's going on. In the mid 80's though I can understand why one would rely on a CSD, because nothing else was available.

Linkwitz gives good insight into proper ways to evaluate performance in the time domain
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/frontiers_2.htm
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
For those new to this thread, my references to previous suggested setup/configuration are from this thread originally: http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48078

Well, a couple that immediately pop into mind that I'd take over the 805S are the Usher Tiny Dancer, ACI Sapphire XL, SP Tech Timepiece, Revel Ultima Gem, maybe a Dyn Confidence C1. Also possibly the Focal Mini Utopia Be the OP mentioned, and I remember loving the Eben monitors I heard last year at RMAF. And I've tried not to toot my own horn, but the Monitor I'm taking to RMAF next week meets all your measurment criteria for a great speaker ... and has been heard by about 50 people thus far in 3 different rooms with universal praise, and 4 people wanting to buy them on the spot :)
Of the speakers recommended, I could only find a decent measurement set of the C1 and Revel Gem.

The C1 is very commendable of on axis response, but is no better, and actually, a little worse, off axis. It's resonance appears to be substantially worse for the cabinet system - I could never recommend it due to this reason. The objective for my recommended set up is an over all neutral system with excellent adjustable characteristics - not one with pleasurable(?) timbre distortion caused by the cabinet system, even if some people like the sound of the cabinet coloration. It's price far exceeds the B&W by more than 2x, placing it considerably out of the B&W price range.

The Revel is genuinely, by a subtle degree, superior to the B&W overall. Unfortunately, it too is substantially higher in price by almost 2x, placing it considerably out of the B&W price range.

None of these speakers, by themselves, could have a reasonable chance of equaling the perceived sound quality of the B&W combined with stereo subwoofers of high quality and a proper digital crossover/EQ system as I specified. The combination of full range, high quality bass and tonal manipulation using the DSP is an extremely important aspect of the set up I specified. Using for example, the Ultima Gem in my recommended configuration would be ideal, but this would far exceed the budget range that the OP seems to be aiming for.

-Chris
 
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WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
The problem with CSD's is that they show nothing under 1000hz, and while the data can be useful there simply are better ways now to see what's going on. In the mid 80's though I can understand why one would rely on a CSD, because nothing else was available.

Linkwitz gives good insight into proper ways to evaluate performance in the time domain
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/frontiers_2.htm
We were discussing data over the frequency range of 1000Hz, I do believe.

Waterfall response is valid for full range, when used in a full range anechoic chamber, or on a pole mounted 50 or more feet above the ground. The roughly 1000Hz limitation is due, as you know, to practical limitations in trying to limit reflections in regular reflective environments.

-Chris
 
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
I seem to have gotten to the the point in my life that I don't listen to a lot of perceptual research but a lot to to music, but hey, they just me......
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I seem to have gotten to the the point in my life that I don't listen to a lot of perceptual research but a lot to to music, but hey, they just me......
Same here, P-Dawg.

And my ears tell me that my DefTechs sound 100 times better than your Digms.:eek:
 

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