offshoot of High end Focal or high end B&W

Warpdrv

Warpdrv

Audioholic Ninja
Perhaps you should read my post again(assuming you read it the first time). You seem to have missed the entire point/purpose of that post, which is that with the suggested system I outlined, it is adaptable to whatever sound signature the owner desires, unlike the overwhelming majority of other systems.

-Chris
I believe he read your post, but also read the OP's request's and offered up other suggestions alternative, which also serve to be worthy suggestions...

Chris, I agree with your summations and offerings of components to be a completely fruitful scenario for a compelling setup from top to bottom... The B&W 805's are very good sounding, neutral speakers that employ very low resonance cabinets, which allow one to with using a very qualified EQ such as the DCX2496 to taylor the sound to ones liking...

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I have read of issues with the B&W's Kevlar drivers showing signs of ringing or breakup at certain freq.'s



There are many alternatives, possibly better designs available that could provide equally or even better response then B&W, as I'm sure you well know.
I would have to agree to some point with Nuance, that there are better speakers that B&W has to offer, but pretty much everything inbetween the 2 way 805 and the 802D, leave much to be desired... most if not all of them left me with a much to be desired feeling that washed over me.. which would lead me to believe that you are correct in the bigger cabinets show themselves to have far to much cabinet resonance that colored the sound uncontrollably. Bookshelves really offer some of the best sound available, depending on the builder..
 
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G

gus6464

Audioholic Samurai
4kHz is just a ridiculous frequency to cross over that driver. No wonder people find a lot speakers very harsh sounding compared to the expensive offerings. But then again if they crossed it lower and thus made the 805S a better designed speaker then there would be no need to upgrade to the higher end ones.
 
emorphien

emorphien

Audioholic General
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I have read of issues with the B&W's Kevlar drivers showing signs of ringing or breakup at certain freq.'s
I've heard the same and wondered if it were true but haven't seen a full investigation in to it.
 
avaserfi

avaserfi

Audioholic Ninja
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I have read of issues with the B&W's Kevlar drivers showing signs of ringing or breakup at certain freq.'s

These cone resonances would be visible on a CSD plot, if they were an issue. Based on the CSD taken by Stereophile this is a non-issue. Also, it would be important to note that the images you linked, if credible [I am unaware of the source], give no actual quantifiable value for these cone resonances making them useless. This is so because there are certain amounts of resonance [cone and cabinet] that are simply inaudible. Thus, these breaks ups which might look detrimental on a laser plot could be completely inaudible.



4kHz is just a ridiculous frequency to cross over that driver. No wonder people find a lot speakers very harsh sounding compared to the expensive offerings. But then again if they crossed it lower and thus made the 805S a better designed speaker then there would be no need to upgrade to the higher end ones.
There is no issue with crossing any driver over at 4kHz or even higher if its polar response, distortion and breakup modes are not problems within the passband along side the driver being placed within one wavelength center to center with the tweeter. A high crossover has no correlation to a harsh sound unless improperly implemented.

Also, based on the Stereophile measurements the unit is not crossed over at 4kHz like B&W claims, but closer to 3kHz.



The reason the B&W 805S would be perceived as harsh is not due to its crossover point, but rather the fact that it is so linear. It has been shown, time and time again, via credible perceptual that a gradual attenuation of the treble is perceived as neutral due primarily to modern recording techniques.

 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Warpdrive, I was going to reply, but avaserfi already did it for me. :)

-Chris
 
Spkr_Bldr

Spkr_Bldr

Full Audioholic
These cone resonances would be visible on a CSD plot, if they were an issue. Based on the CSD taken by Stereophile this is a non-issue. Also, it would be important to note that the images you linked, if credible [I am unaware of the source], give no actual quantifiable value for these cone resonances making them useless. This is so because there are certain amounts of resonance [cone and cabinet] that are simply inaudible. Thus, these breaks ups which might look detrimental on a laser plot could be completely inaudible.

I see a pretty broad shelf of energy storage centered around 2000hz. And CSD's only show linear-distortion, nothing of harmonic or intermodulation. To say that cone resonances of a driver integrated into a crossover network would show clearly on a CSD is incorrect, especially when talking about THAT tiny CSD chart.

Of course there are levels of resonances that are inaudible, but I don't think there's a 6.5" on the planet that can run up to 4khz and remain in the 'inaudible' levels. Kevlar cones flap like toilet paper in the breeze at 4khz, but they typically have decent-to-good internal damping to knock down resonance levels and help to keep resonances from propogating into other odd-order harmonics.

There is no issue with crossing any driver over at 4kHz or even higher if its polar response, distortion and breakup modes are not problems within the passband along side the driver being placed within one wavelength center to center with the tweeter. A high crossover has no correlation to a harsh sound unless improperly implemented.
Nice way to gloss over the facts in this case - no 6.5" can crossover as high as in the 805 and NOT have significant narrowing of polar response and significant non-pistonic cone motions. And one wavelength? Don't you mean 1/4 wavelength, or at least 1/2 wavelength?

High crossover points absolutely have direct correlation to harshness when you're talking about a 2-way with a 6.5" or 7" woofer because of the fact that no 6.5" or 7" woofer can operate that high without the very issues you say should be addressed.

The reason the B&W 805S would be perceived as harsh is not due to its crossover point, but rather the fact that it is so linear. It has been shown, time and time again, via credible perceptual that a gradual attenuation of the treble is perceived as neutral due primarily to modern recording techniques.

What? That's a load of poo ... that image doesn't chart harshness, it charts what the listeners feel is proper balance. Bright does not equal harsh, odd harmonics and intermodulation equal harshness ... and using a woofer well outside it's band of predictable cone motion equals odd harmonics and intermodulation.

Every speaker builder I know in the industry, myself included, knows that 'harshness' comes from the woofer 95% of the time.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
I see a pretty broad shelf of energy storage centered around 2000hz. And CSD's only show linear-distortion, nothing of harmonic or intermodulation. To say that cone resonances of a driver integrated into a crossover network would show clearly on a CSD is incorrect, especially when talking about THAT tiny CSD chart.
Non-sense. Are you even familar with the resonance perceptual research by Fryer, Toole and Olive? It outlines specific audibility of frequency vs. Q vs. relative level, and in different environments/conditions. The resonance here in the range you specify, would be not audible, or very slightly audible, at 2khz, on some small selection of material; nothing substantial. This is certainly not the end all, be all of speakers, this is a speaker within a budget.

Of course there are levels of resonances that are inaudible, but I don't think there's a 6.5" on the planet that can run up to 4khz and remain in the 'inaudible' levels.
And yet, no audible levels of resonance exist at 4khz on this speaker system, as clearly shown by the CSD chart here.

Nice way to gloss over the facts in this case - no 6.5" can crossover as high as in the 805 and NOT have significant narrowing of polar response and significant non-pistonic cone motions. And one wavelength? Don't you mean 1/4 wavelength, or at least 1/2 wavelength?
Well, first of all, virtually no speakers are perfect in regards to off axis response. 2nd, the speaker actually crosses over at about 3.1 or 3.2kHz, as shown by the measurements.

High crossover points absolutely have direct correlation to harshness when you're talking about a 2-way with a 6.5" or 7" woofer because of the fact that no 6.5" or 7" woofer can operate that high without the very issues you say should be addressed.
3.1 kHz is perfectly reasonable for many 6.5" woofers within the overall compromise set inherent within the budget range. Also, 6.5" is not the woofer size, it's the frame size. I have seen some drivers that have actual cones much smaller than the frame size leads you to believe is the case. I don't know what the actual cone diameter is on the B&W at issue.

The off axis response of the unit discussed here, is measured off axis, and the response of this speaker is very good in this regard. At 45 degres off axis, there is about a 2dB variation at crossover point as compared to on axis. At 60 degrees off axis, there is about a 2.5-3dB variation at crossover point, compared to on axis.

Bright does not equal harsh, odd harmonics and intermodulation equal harshness ... and using a woofer well outside it's band of predictable cone motion equals odd harmonics and intermodulation.
It's non-sense to argue over subjective impressions. But a flat response at listener position does make many commercial recording give a 'harsh' impression, one could say, due to the exaggerated high frequency level. What one defines as 'harsh' may vary. Perhaps you may mean break-up modes of a cone(clearly not the case with the B&W unit here), and some one else may mean the sibilant and un-natural presentation of excess treble sounds 'harsh'.

Every speaker builder I know in the industry, myself included, knows that 'harshness' comes from the woofer 95% of the time.
I would be cautious using the majority as an example FOR ANYTHING. If one is to judge the over-all skills of 99% of designers based on the performance of their resulting speakers, then most of them are clearly lacking over-all knowledge/ability, based on the poor performance that is common of off axis response and resonances of the systems.

-Chris
 
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avaserfi

avaserfi

Audioholic Ninja
I see a pretty broad shelf of energy storage centered around 2000hz. And CSD's only show linear-distortion, nothing of harmonic or intermodulation. To say that cone resonances of a driver integrated into a crossover network would show clearly on a CSD is incorrect, especially when talking about THAT tiny CSD chart.
The issue at hand was gross audibility of cone resonance. My point was that the image in post 6 was an exaggeration as shown by the Stereophile CSD. Further, there has been a large amount of credible perceptual research with regard to resonance audibility as it relates to environment, Q, frequency and relative level. If one properly correlates this research with linked CSD it would become very apparent that these cone resonances would be audible in few to no circumstances.

A good starting point: The Modification of Timbre by Resonances: Perception and Measurements. J. Audio Eng. Soc. 36, 122-142, 1988 by Toole, Floyd E. and Olive, Sean E.

Of course there are levels of resonances that are inaudible, but I don't think there's a 6.5" on the planet that can run up to 4khz and remain in the 'inaudible' levels. Kevlar cones flap like toilet paper in the breeze at 4khz, but they typically have decent-to-good internal damping to knock down resonance levels and help to keep resonances from propogating into other odd-order harmonics.
Clearly, this is not the case, as the CSD shows that there is no audible resonance created by this driver whose frame size is 6.5 inches.

Nice way to gloss over the facts in this case - no 6.5" can crossover as high as in the 805 and NOT have significant narrowing of polar response and significant non-pistonic cone motions. And one wavelength? Don't you mean 1/4 wavelength, or at least 1/2 wavelength?
As previously stated the 6.5 inch size is related to frame size, not just cone size. Also, the measurements linked clearly show that crossover point is closer to 3.1kHz which is perfectly suitable as shown by the off-axis response graphs.

One wavelength is not ideal, but will be the only option in some situations and, of course, requires certain compromises. Indeed, half a wavelength, or even less is ideal, but not always possible.

High crossover points absolutely have direct correlation to harshness when you're talking about a 2-way with a 6.5" or 7" woofer because of the fact that no 6.5" or 7" woofer can operate that high without the very issues you say should be addressed.
I believe this point has already been addressed, not only by me, but also by the credible measurements provided.

What? That's a load of poo ... that image doesn't chart harshness, it charts what the listeners feel is proper balance. Bright does not equal harsh, odd harmonics and intermodulation equal harshness ... and using a woofer well outside it's band of predictable cone motion equals odd harmonics and intermodulation.
This depends entirely on what one defines harsh as. In my reference it was to accentuation of the treble response. The graph shows treble response found to be perceived as neutral by a variety of researchers.

Every speaker builder I know in the industry, myself included, knows that 'harshness' comes from the woofer 95% of the time.
As far as I can tell almost every speaker builder I know [personally or impersonally] regardless of their relationship to the industry or lack of it produces a substandard product. Note, this statement refers to actual measurements of these loudspeakers as they relate to human perception - primary issues are in polar response and cabinet resonance. Due to this, I put little weight in what many believe to be true and focus my interest on the credible research within the field.

edit: Guess WmAx beat me to it...
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Every speaker builder I know in the industry, myself included, knows that 'harshness' comes from the woofer 95% of the time.
I have no idea what you guys are talking about:D, but I just wanted to know what YOU (Ryan) personally think is the BEST commercially built speaker?
 
Spkr_Bldr

Spkr_Bldr

Full Audioholic
Non-sense. Are you even familar with the resonance perceptual research by Fryer, Toole and Olive? It outlines specific audibility of frequency vs. Q vs. relative level, and in different environments/conditions. The resonance here in the range you specify, would be not audible, or very slightly audible, at 2khz, on some small selection of material; nothing substantial. This is certainly not the end all, be all of speakers, this is a speaker within a budget.
Yes, I'm familiar ... I'm an AES member. But I don't believe most of the papers you often cite have much relevance when talking about Kevlar, Aluminum, Magnesium, etc cones. The Paper/Poly cones used in those studies simply don't have harmonics that propogate down through the passband as a result of cone break-ups, and therefore results from them don't apply here except with regard to linear distortion.

And yet, no audible levels of resonance exist at 4khz on this speaker system, as clearly shown by the CSD chart here.
Please show me where on that CSD chart you can see intermodulation or harmonic distortions.

Well, first of all, virtually no speakers are perfect in regards to off axis response. 2nd, the speaker actually crosses over at about 3.1 or 3.2kHz, as shown by the measurements.

3.1 kHz is perfectly reasonable for many 6.5" woofers within the overall compromise set inherent within the budget range. Also, 6.5" is not the woofer size, it's the frame size. I have seen some drivers that have actual cones much smaller than the frame size leads you to believe is the case. I don't know what the actual cone diameter is on the B&W at issue.

The off axis response of the unit discussed here, is measured off axis, and the response of this speaker is very good in this regard. At 45 degres off axis, there is about a 2dB variation at crossover point as compared to on axis. At 60 degrees off axis, there is about a 2.5-3dB variation at crossover point, compared to on axis.
I've personally measured probably 30 6"-7" woofers, they ALL start to narrow in directivity starting at 1500hz, +/- 200hz or so. And they're ALL down at least 5db (sometimes as much as 10db) by 3000hz at 60 degrees off axis. That includes the smaller 6"ers like a HiVi D6.8, larger 7" drivers like those from Usher, ones with phase plugs, different cone profiles, etc. And if the 805S woofer was measured independant from the summing with the tweeter you'd see the same with it. While that may be reasonable or acceptable, it's far from ideal ... and it goes against what you yourself have said many times on this forum.

It's non-sense to argue over subjective impressions. But a flat response at listener position does make many commercial recording give a 'harsh' impression, one could say, due to the exaggerated high frequency level. What one defines as 'harsh' may vary. Perhaps you may mean break-up modes of a cone(clearly not the case with the B&W unit here), and some one else may mean the sibilant and un-natural presentation of excess treble sounds 'harsh'.
Harsh and Bright are two very different things, and you know what I'm saying. Bright comes from relative tweeter level and can vary from recording to recording, and isn't related in any way to linear or non-linear distortions. Harsh comes from 'problems' in the upper vocals and instrument ranges, and can often be due to non-linear distortions that propogate down through the pass-band as a result of cone and/or surround resonances. And they do not show on a CSD.

I would be cautious using the majority as an example FOR ANYTHING. If one is to judge the over-all skills of 99% of designers based on the performance of their resulting speakers, then most of them are clearly lacking over-all knowledge/ability, based on the poor performance that is common of off axis response and resonances of the systems.

-Chris
avaserfi said:
As far as I can tell almost every speaker builder I know [personally or impersonally] regardless of their relationship to the industry or lack of it produces a substandard product. Note, this statement refers to actual measurements of these loudspeakers as they relate to human perception - primary issues are in polar response and cabinet resonance. Due to this, I put little weight in what many believe to be true and focus my interest on the credible research within the field.
Pretty easy to stand on the sideline with a smug look on your face and say "how could you miss that shot!" It's a little harder to get in there and sink one at the buzzer yourself. I'm not Richard Vandersteen or Bill Dudleston, but I've at least got on the floor and taken a few shots. I also made a game-winner with what I took to RMAF last year, and have what I think is another 3-pointer for this years show. You guys might want to either consider toning down your talk, or get in the game.
 
Spkr_Bldr

Spkr_Bldr

Full Audioholic
I have no idea what you guys are talking about:D, but I just wanted to know what YOU (Ryan) personally think is the BEST commercially built speaker?
I get asked that a lot, honestly I don't know. A few left solid impressions form last years RMAF ... the $100K plus MBL 201E is without a doubt the most immersive listening experience I've ever been a part of. Just unreal what those can do in a room with some space. Also the Sonicweld Pulserods, again ridiculously expensive, but accuracy like I've never heard before. Some cheaper stuff, Duke LeJunes' AudioKinesis Dream Makers were thoroughly enjoyable ... funny looking, but very very smooth and dynamic.

I heard the also ridiculous expensive Kharma's and Marten's at the show, and neither was impressive except for their delicacy and detail. In fact, the Audio Federation room was right down the hall from us last year, they had the $150K Marten Grand Coltranes, and one of the exhibitors from that room kept coming to our room to listen to MY speakers!

I agree with Nuance, you have to get up to the 802D to get anything worth noting in the B&W line.

That's me on the left, throwing up the stunna ... and my red speakers about 1/2 way down the first page. Which I have to be honest, was one of the best speakers at the whole show. Danny Ritchie from GR Research told me he'd put them in his top 5, and Jed Kunz who started Clearwave Audio said on HTGuide.com that my speakers were his favorite from the entire show, and inspired a reference design of his own.

http://www.stereomojo.com/Rocky%20Mountain%20Audio%20Fest%202007/RockyMountainAudioFest2007.htm
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
That's me on the left, throwing up the stunna ... and my red speakers about 1/2 way down the first page. Which I have to be honest, was one of the best speakers at the whole show. Danny Ritchie from GR Research told me he'd put them in his top 5, and Jed Kunz who started Clearwave Audio said on HTGuide.com that my speakers were his favorite from the entire show, and inspired a reference design of his own.
$3,000/pr is a good price.

It would be cool if Stereophile could review your speakers! I would love to see all the technical measured specs. What is the frequency response on your speakers?
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Yes, I'm familiar ... I'm an AES member. But I don't believe most of the papers you often cite have much relevance when talking about Kevlar, Aluminum, Magnesium, etc cones. The Paper/Poly cones used in those studies simply don't have harmonics that propogate down through the passband as a result of cone break-ups, and therefore results from them don't apply here except with regard to linear distortion.
You want to sit there and claim the perceptual research is not relevant here? Rubbish. The test was performed an a variety of reference gear and coorelated, including speakers and headphones.

The CSD measurement shows that no resonance is anywhere around the crossover point, that could be considered audible on anything, even white noise, based on the perceptual research.



Please show me where on that CSD chart you can see intermodulation or harmonic distortions.
This is a completely different issue, and it is not likely it has distortion audible in music program, anyways. You are simply making an assumption based on no real information.


I've personally measured probably 30 6"-7" woofers, they ALL start to narrow in directivity starting at 1500hz, +/- 200hz or so. And they're ALL down at least 5db (sometimes as much as 10db) by 3000hz at 60 degrees off axis. That includes the smaller 6"ers like a HiVi D6.8, larger 7" drivers like those from Usher, ones with phase plugs, different cone profiles, etc. And if the 805S woofer was measured independant from the summing with the tweeter you'd see the same with it. While that may be reasonable or acceptable, it's far from ideal ... and it goes against what you yourself have said many times on this forum.
You really are directing your replies to the wrong issues. The issue here is off axis response in relation to similar products. And with this, this device is better than average, as proven in the off axis plots. The summed output of off axis response is the over-all important thing. The system is designed so that drivers sum, very even, across a somewhat broad range of angles.


Harsh and Bright are two very different things, and you know what I'm saying. Bright comes from relative tweeter level and can vary from recording to recording, and isn't related in any way to linear or non-linear distortions. Harsh comes from 'problems' in the upper vocals and instrument ranges, and can often be due to non-linear distortions that propogate down through the pass-band as a result of cone and/or surround resonances. And they do not show on a CSD.
I know what you said, but you don't seem to want to believe, is that people come up with all kinds of subjective terms to describe the same thing, and it's perfectly plausible that some may consider brightness harsh on many commercial recordings.

-Chris
 
avaserfi

avaserfi

Audioholic Ninja
Yes, I'm familiar ... I'm an AES member. But I don't believe most of the papers you often cite have much relevance when talking about Kevlar, Aluminum, Magnesium, etc cones. The Paper/Poly cones used in those studies simply don't have harmonics that propogate down through the passband as a result of cone break-ups, and therefore results from them don't apply here except with regard to linear distortion.
Resonances and distortions are two separate issues that should be dealt with as such. Clearly, based on the posted graphs, driver resonances are not audible in the majority [if not all] of music reproduction situations.

Please show me where on that CSD chart you can see intermodulation or harmonic distortions.
I never made the claim that these distortions are displayed via a CSD plot. How is it exactly you are coming to the conclusion that these distortions are not only present, but also audible without any actual credible evidence?

I've personally measured probably 30 6"-7" woofers, they ALL start to narrow in directivity starting at 1500hz, +/- 200hz or so. And they're ALL down at least 5db (sometimes as much as 10db) by 3000hz at 60 degrees off axis. That includes the smaller 6"ers like a HiVi D6.8, larger 7" drivers like those from Usher, ones with phase plugs, different cone profiles, etc. And if the 805S woofer was measured independant from the summing with the tweeter you'd see the same with it. While that may be reasonable or acceptable, it's far from ideal ... and it goes against what you yourself have said many times on this forum.
As previously noted this unit is a system and should be measured as such. In doing this, it is clear that the unit has superior polar response relative to many offerings at recommended price point.

As far as having measured a variety of 6" drivers and finding this issue of narrow directivity goes this directly relates to a manufactures definition of a 6" driver. For example, the Dayton RS150 driver which is sold as a 6" driver has superb polar response, but at the same time is smaller than most typical 6" drivers. This happens to be the case with the B&W unit, as previously mentioned.

Harsh and Bright are two very different things, and you know what I'm saying. Bright comes from relative tweeter level and can vary from recording to recording, and isn't related in any way to linear or non-linear distortions. Harsh comes from 'problems' in the upper vocals and instrument ranges, and can often be due to non-linear distortions that propogate down through the pass-band as a result of cone and/or surround resonances. And they do not show on a CSD.
This is why I typically try to avoid using subjective terms in discussion of a loudspeaker. Sadly, this is not always possible. My definition of harsh, in the context previously used has been given. It happens to fall in line with the term you are using as bright.

The thought of such terms as being standardized while perhaps useful has not happened as far as I am aware. Also, how can one say definitively claim that is a subjective term has been standardized?

Pretty easy to stand on the sideline with a smug look on your face and say "how could you miss that shot!" It's a little harder to get in there and sink one at the buzzer yourself. I'm not Richard Vandersteen or Bill Dudleston, but I've at least got on the floor and taken a few shots. I also made a game-winner with what I took to RMAF last year, and have what I think is another 3-pointer for this years show. You guys might want to either consider toning down your talk, or get in the game.
At this point in my life it is not feasible for me to go to RMAF and showcase speakers etc...While I may not attempt to get high profile exposure for my designs, this has no relationship to the quality of my designs.

Furthermore, I have no interest in others biased opinions of a loudspeaker [built personally or by another] in a non-ideal environment. Such a situation creates far to many confounds for proper loudspeaker judgment to occur.
 
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Davemcc

Davemcc

Audioholic Spartan
C'mon guys. This is not the place for a discussion on the minute technical details of loudspeakers. How is this helping the OP? Has anybody asked the OP what his comfort level is when faced with custom tuning a system with a DSP. The last I saw, the OP just wanted to buy a set of speakers and an amp. Being in the Navy, I'm not sure that he wants to spend his leave time running an RTA to tune his DSP.

I hope this little pissing match hasn't chased away the OP. Many of the technical details here are over my head. I can only imagine how the OP feels, overwhelmed probably. I fail to see how the OP's interests are being served here.

To the OP, let me say Thank You for you service in the Navy and please let us know what you're thinking. If we have a better idea of what you want and what your comfort level is, the members of this site can provide a great deal of valuable assistance from virtually any technical standpoint, as I'm sure you've already seen.

Personally, I'd love a set of Focals. If you like the Focals after hearing the competition, buy them, enjoy them and don't let anybody make you second guess the choice. The choice has to satisfy you, not me or anybody else on this site.
 
Spkr_Bldr

Spkr_Bldr

Full Audioholic
Have either of you ever actually owned, or extensively listened to, a B&W 805S?

It seems as though the two of you only use incomplete and inconclusive (as all measurements of loudspeakers are) measurements on which to base your opinions. I have a serious problem with that, especially when it comes to telling others how to spend their money. Over the last 3 years I've probably taken 50,000 measurements of individual drivers and complete systems. But more importantly I've spend thousands of hours listening, and what I learned is that NO loudspeakers measurements I know of are enough to draw conclusions.

If you're going to come to any sort of conclusions based on measurements alone, you need a LOT more data than is given by Stereophile. CSD and on-axis FR are the same data, off-axis FR is good data, and accelerometer readings are good data too, but the sum of these are NOT enough to make any conclusions. There simply are too-many unknowns.

I have heard 805s' a fair amount, a good friend is a manager at a local B&W dealer called The Sound Room, and he's a B&W fanboy ... and thus makes me listen to a pair whenever I visit :rolleyes: They're a fine speaker, I'd say they'd be a great option at around $1000-$1500 ... but at $2800 there are MANY better options.
 
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
Have either of you ever actually owned, or extensively listened to, a B&W 805S?
To my ear, the 805S is the best bookshelf speaker I have ever heard. And, I am a MB Quart fanboy.;)
 
Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
C'mon guys. This is not the place for a discussion on the minute technical details of loudspeakers. How is this helping the OP? Has anybody asked the OP what his comfort level is when faced with custom tuning a system with a DSP. The last I saw, the OP just wanted to buy a set of speakers and an amp. Being in the Navy, I'm not sure that he wants to spend his leave time running an RTA to tune his DSP.

I hope this little pissing match hasn't chased away the OP. Many of the technical details here are over my head. I can only imagine how the OP feels, overwhelmed probably. I fail to see how the OP's interests are being served here.

To the OP, let me say Thank You for you service in the Navy and please let us know what you're thinking. If we have a better idea of what you want and what your comfort level is, the members of this site can provide a great deal of valuable assistance from virtually any technical standpoint, as I'm sure you've already seen.

Personally, I'd love a set of Focals. If you like the Focals after hearing the competition, buy them, enjoy them and don't let anybody make you second guess the choice. The choice has to satisfy you, not me or anybody else on this site.
They're not taking stabs at each other, they're explaining their point and backing it up with proof (WmAx and Avaserfi at least...).

SheepStar
 
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