MinusTheBear

MinusTheBear

Audioholic Ninja
There are a lot of people pooping in their pants. I can see lots of people being indicted including some members of congress. I must say your country is a mess right now....
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
There are a lot of people pooping in their pants. I can see lots of people being indicted including some members of congress. I must say your country is a mess right now....
Human nature gets in the way of things, from time to time:D
Greed is not unique over here. China has its share, even where summary executions are the norm:D
And, so does other countries. This just happens to be, well, kind a big:eek:
 
aberkowitz

aberkowitz

Audioholic Field Marshall
There are a lot of people pooping in their pants. I can see lots of people being indicted including some members of congress. I must say your country is a mess right now....
Indictments are going to be hard b/c proof of an actual crime (and not some trumped up charge like mail fraud) is going to be impossible. In the case of Fannie & Freddie, they were found guilty of breaking accounting rules and were severely punished earlier this decade. Most of the blame around their failures can actually be laid with Congress for not tightening regulations enough and restricting their mortgage holdings.

Most people, especially members of Congress, have very little understanding of why these companies and others (Bear, Merrill, Wamu) are having such problems. AIG & Lehman's failures had very little to do with illegal actions- they have something to do with poor management decisions over the past couple of years (and in some cases the past 6 months), but most of the blame can be laid on the absolute stagnation of credit markets. I'm not going to go into a lesson on why and how the markets have dried up (it would get too technical and take too long), but the simple explanation is that EVERYBODY shares some of the blame- homeowners, mortgage brokers, thrifts, investment banks, commercial banks, Congress, the Fed, the SEC, the Treasury, etc.

The ability to obtain credit to finance a business on a daily basis, which is a fundamental need for a financial services company in the same way you and I need to breath air or drink water, has almost totally dried up. If companies run out of sources of liquidity they have to sell assets which will invariably be sold at firesale prices b/c they need cash, causing the value of other similar assets in the market to drop, causing the company to need more cash, causing a ratings agency to come in and question the company's solvency and lowering their rating, causing them to need even more cash, until they have nothing left to do but throw themselves on the mercy of the system.... What I just described to you is what happened to AIG.

We don't fix the situation through jailtime, we fix the situation by re-establishing markets (don't ask me how, I'm not smart enough :D) and then taking necessary steps through smart and somewhat limited regulation and oversight to make sure that next time this happens the powers that be handle it in a more orderly fashion. This may sound idealist and simplistic, but it is how the SEC, Fed, FDIC, SIPC, and many other agencies were created- as lessons learned from the bank panics of the 1800s and the great depression.
 
R

rnatalli

Audioholic Ninja
Indictments are going to be hard b/c proof of an actual crime (and not some trumped up charge like mail fraud) is going to be impossible. In the case of Fannie & Freddie, they were found guilty of breaking accounting rules and were severely punished earlier this decade. Most of the blame around their failures can actually be laid with Congress for not tightening regulations enough and restricting their mortgage holdings.

Most people, especially members of Congress, have very little understanding of why these companies and others (Bear, Merrill, Wamu) are having such problems. AIG & Lehman's failures had very little to do with illegal actions- they have something to do with poor management decisions over the past couple of years (and in some cases the past 6 months), but most of the blame can be laid on the absolute stagnation of credit markets. I'm not going to go into a lesson on why and how the markets have dried up (it would get too technical and take too long), but the simple explanation is that EVERYBODY shares some of the blame- homeowners, mortgage brokers, thrifts, investment banks, commercial banks, Congress, the Fed, the SEC, the Treasury, etc.

The ability to obtain credit to finance a business on a daily basis, which is a fundamental need for a financial services company in the same way you and I need to breath air or drink water, has almost totally dried up. If companies run out of sources of liquidity they have to sell assets which will invariably be sold at firesale prices b/c they need cash, causing the value of other similar assets in the market to drop, causing the company to need more cash, causing a ratings agency to come in and question the company's solvency and lowering their rating, causing them to need even more cash, until they have nothing left to do but throw themselves on the mercy of the system.... What I just described to you is what happened to AIG.

We don't fix the situation through jailtime, we fix the situation by re-establishing markets (don't ask me how, I'm not smart enough :D) and then taking necessary steps through smart and somewhat limited regulation and oversight to make sure that next time this happens the powers that be handle it in a more orderly fashion. This may sound idealist and simplistic, but it is how the SEC, Fed, FDIC, SIPC, and many other agencies were created- as lessons learned from the bank panics of the 1800s and the great depression.
Nicely put... Bottom line, no one really did anything illegal. The government was asleep and people can express their dissatisfaction by voting people out. That's it...
 
croseiv

croseiv

Audioholic Samurai
Nicely put... Bottom line, no one really did anything illegal. The government was asleep and people can express their dissatisfaction by voting people out. That's it...
I just hope it's not too little too late..This ship is a lot bigger than it used to be.
 
Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
There are a lot of people pooping in their pants. I can see lots of people being indicted including some members of congress. I must say your country is a mess right now....
Hey, who are you going to vote for? Are you like me and can't seem to pick a candidate that sucks slightly less then the others?

SheepStar
 
croseiv

croseiv

Audioholic Samurai
Hey, who are you going to vote for? Are you like me and can't seem to pick a candidate that sucks slightly less then the others?

SheepStar
They all suck, that's for sure!
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Hey, who are you going to vote for? Are you like me and can't seem to pick a candidate that sucks slightly less then the others?

SheepStar
Google George Will. I think he is conservative. May have a few things to say:D
 
billy p

billy p

Audioholic Ninja
Hey, who are you going to vote for? Are you like me and can't seem to pick a candidate that sucks slightly less then the others?SheepStar
Easy, I just don't vote and IMO they all suck equally. Its hard to believe in Canada we have 5 official parties to choose from and 4 of them reek and one that doesn't(Green Party) can't be taken seriously.

BTW say hello to BEF1:)
 
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MinusTheBear

MinusTheBear

Audioholic Ninja
Hey, who are you going to vote for? Are you like me and can't seem to pick a candidate that sucks slightly less then the others?

SheepStar
I have no idea who I am voting for. I do not know alot about all the parties considering I do not follow politics much. I have been getting calls from the conservative party and they were asking me who was I voting for and how do you think Harper has done etc etc. Those phone calls are very annoying.
 
M

Mort Corey

Senior Audioholic
Kinda funny. The original Enron got into problems with (over) leverage schemes that were largely dreamed up by Goldman Sachs whose CEO was (drum roll please) Hank Paulson....now a dedicated public servant.:rolleyes:

Mort
 
aberkowitz

aberkowitz

Audioholic Field Marshall
Kinda funny. The original Enron got into problems with (over) leverage schemes that were largely dreamed up by Goldman Sachs whose CEO was (drum roll please) Hank Paulson....now a dedicated public servant.:rolleyes:

Mort
You can try to blame Goldman if you want... but the real blame for Enron lies in the accountants who ignored the rules and the CFO who tried to cover it up. Just because and investment bank comes up with an idea doesn't mean it always within the accounting rules... keeping in mind that the GAAP accounting rules binder is almost 9 inches thick.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Easy, I just don't vote and IMO they all suck equally. Its hard to believe in Canada we have 5 official parties
But then the others win and you cannot complain too hard:D
Even if you vote for the one who will do the least harm, at least you did your civic duty, right? And then you can complain all you'd like:D
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
You can try to blame Goldman if you want... but the real blame for Enron lies in the accountants who ignored the rules and the CFO who tried to cover it up. Just because and investment bank comes up with an idea doesn't mean it always within the accounting rules... keeping in mind that the GAAP accounting rules binder is almost 9 inches thick.
My question then would be was Paulson left out of the loop on purpose for deniability, conveniently, or because the CFO knew that he would have overruled them?
 
M

Mort Corey

Senior Audioholic
I didn't say the GS was at fault....maybe a contributor to the fiasco with their MIPS scheme. (that they peddled to more companies than Enron). I guess a better analogy might be giving someone enough rope to hang themselves.....mission accomplished.

Mort
 
aberkowitz

aberkowitz

Audioholic Field Marshall
My question then would be was Paulson left out of the loop on purpose for deniability, conveniently, or because the CFO knew that he would have overruled them?
No- because it wouldn't matter. GS was in an advisory role... it was Enron that made the decisions. When it comes to accounting fraud, it's all about the auditor, the CFO, and the internal financials folks. No IB would be held responsible.

I didn't say the GS was at fault....maybe a contributor to the fiasco with their MIPS scheme. (that they peddled to more companies than Enron). I guess a better analogy might be giving someone enough rope to hang themselves.....mission accomplished.

Mort
I'll agree with you on that. Although I will say that the MIPS was a pretty creative idea!! If I remember correctly, it wasn't originally against IRS policy. The IRS only changed the rules after the fact.
 
Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
I don't think you guys realise that there is a federal election in Canada too. I was referring to that, and that is why I asked MinusTheBear. Billy got it, but no one else did.

I have only voted in a Provincal Election, and I stumbled onto a decent independant. Now though I can't even consider a party. Green is decent but lack plans for any other form of Government.

SheepStar
 

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