Room treatment

[cbraver]

I'm moving into a new place pretty soon, a loft style apartment. The ceilings are very tall, and the floors are wood. I'm going to put a rug on the floor in my listening area, but I was also considering acoustic treatments if it was economical and made sense for my application.

I attached a (very crappy) drawing of my space and where things will be.

Any suggestion? Recommended readings?

Thanks!

 

[jostenmeat]

Here are a few:

Acoustical Treatments Master Thread

Freaking long article by Ethan Winer

Real Traps Product Data

GIK Acoustics Primer

Well, I think you should also consider listener positioning and speaker positioning in that setup.

How much are you willing to impinge on your space? I think the speakers, especially the left, will LOVE you for pulling them away from boundaries. You want your ears further from that back wall as well.

You should then ask yourself, are you willing to move both speakers and couch for those critical listening sessions? If you do, you can mark places on the floor perhaps, very subtly, so that you know where the ideal positionings are.

In my experiences, these things will add up to huge effect. You are most likely going to have a very heavy left soundstage. You will probably want treatment on the left wall, as well as the left-front corner, and maybe/possibly the front wall.

You might also want treatments on the rear wall, especially the closer you end up with your head to it. Avoid smearing of audio. When that reflection arrives that quickly, there are NOT enough milliseconds between this reflection and the direct audio from the speakers, to distinguish between them. If the reflection is far enough, or delayed enough, then it will be perceived as ambience.

DIY is the most affordable. GIK costs a fraction of Real Traps, depending. I have both now. If you want, I can send you pics of the 242, 244, and Mondo Trap all next to each other. I also have Mini-trap but it would be too much hassle to uninstall/reinstall those, atm.

The Real traps are encased in this metal trapping. The GIK are not "solid" from front to back, but have a natural gap in the back, maybe a couple/few inches.

Good luck man.

 

[ParadigmDawg]

Remember a panel with a 2'' air gap works the same as a 4'' panel.

I have a combo of DIY, Ready Acoustic and GIK. My GIK ELITES look the best by far

.

The Real traps are encased in this metal trapping. The GIK are not "solid" from front to back, but have a natural gap in the back, maybe a couple/few inches.

Good luck man.

 

[jostenmeat]

Remember a panel with a 2'' air gap works the same as a 4'' panel.

??? huh ???

 

[ParadigmDawg]

That's just a simple fact. The GIK frames have 2'' of mineral board and a 2'' airgap(4" frame). This is as effective as using 4'' of MB.

??? huh ???

 

[jostenmeat]

That's just a simple fact. The GIK frames have 2'' of mineral board and a 2'' airgap(4" frame). This is as effective as using 4'' of MB.

I doubt that. Maybe for particular frequencies. Ok, I see that you are comparing a 4" directly against the wall, vs 2" with gap.

Of course a 4" with gap is superior to 2" with gap.

And not all panels have the same absorptive properties.

Take a look at the measured differences between the identical Real traps: High Frequency version versus normal. They measured 24 frequencies in the IBM testing facility.

 

[ParadigmDawg]

Dont make me pull in Glenn, Brian or Andrew on this one.....

I doubt that. Maybe for particular frequencies. Ok, I see that you are comparing a 4" directly against the wall, vs 2" with gap.

Of course a 4" with gap is superior to 2" with gap.

And not all panels have the same absorptive properties.

Take a look at the measured differences between the identical Real traps: High Frequency version versus normal. They measured 24 frequencies in the IBM testing facility.

 

[jostenmeat]

Talk to me when you're not boozed up.

Bring em in. I've probably read as much of their stuff as you have anyways.

In fact, I had a quote ready to paste in my post, from bpape. Your first reply was a bit amorphous, well IMO.

Waves get treated three times, to the best of my knowledge, with a gap.

Once thru the panel, a wee bit absorbed by the actual wall, and then a third and final time before it hits your ears.

Of course a thicker panel is more absorptive than a thinner panel of the same material. Is that what you think is wrong?

??? huh ???

 

[ParadigmDawg]

Are you arguing with me on my B-day? I know very little about panels but just saying what I have been told. I have 4 panels that are 4'' thick and 4 that are 2'' with an air-gap. They all seem to work the same to my simple ear.

I promise you have read more about it than me as I have never read anything about it!

Talk to me when you're not boozed up.

Bring em in. I've probably read as much of their stuff as you have anyways.

In fact, I had a quote ready to paste in my post, from bpape. Your first reply was a bit amorphous, well IMO.

Waves get treated three times, to the best of my knowledge, with a gap.

Once thru the panel, a wee bit absorbed by the actual wall, and then a third and final time before it hits your ears.

Of course a thicker panel is more absorptive than a thinner panel of the same material. Is that what you think is wrong?

??? huh ???

 

[jostenmeat]

Happy Birthday!




when cbraver gets back, he's gonna think, "what in the world . . ."

 

[cbraver]

Thanks for the responses!

I'll be able to pull the speakers out and keep seating in a fairly good location. That drawing was just to give an idea of the space and a general location of things. I'll spend some time tweaking and also making good use of my furniture.

I was planning on keeping the A/V rack along that right speaker to maybe act as a "corner" of sorts. It will be a 3 1/2 ft Middle Atlantic rack. I know it's not the same as a wall, but, maybe it will help a bit with that end of the room.

I should probably just wait and see how the room is once everything is in and then order panels. I was thinking of trying to turn oil paintings into acoustic panels by filling them in, or something like that, to have "hidden" acoustic panels that ...don't look like acoustic panels. Not sure if that would work or not.

Would you mind posting/sending some picture of the GIK panels? Their website has some shots, but, they are either too small, or not in a home application.

My rear wall I think will certainly need some treatment.


Thanks for the articles, I've printed them out!

 

[ParadigmDawg]

GIK Elites

 

[ParadigmDawg]

Ready Acoutics

 

[ParadigmDawg]

DIY

 

[cbraver]

Thanks a ton. I don't see why GIK doesn't put big pictures on their website, you just can't tell what the fabric looks like from those little pictures. Maybe it isn't a concern of most of their customers.

I think I might just order a box (three) of black 242s from GIK to start (this project won't be until Jan, but I want everything there and ready to go before I start... I already have a stack of boxes starting) since they are only 160 bucks (200 shipped?) and plan on putting one behind each M&K S-150 and the third one on the wall before the window. Then keep the AV rack approximately the same distance from the right speaker as my left is from the wall. Then I'll see how things sound from there.

For the back wall it would be nice to try to make something that inserts into one of my oil paintings and then hang that on the wall. See what I mean? Although I don't know the dampening properties of canvas.

 

[jostenmeat]

I will in the near future send you pics of some treatments, front and back. Not sure when, but soon.

Painted canvas is reflective. Its not recommended. I know, I've looked into this myself. In fact, I've already mentioned at this sub-forum that the panel companies should prod DuPont to create un-reflective paints.

I know that you said that the drawing is very rough. But it still sticks in my mind. I personally think you are going to want more absorption that the 242. I guess I am just saying I am paranoid of the left heavy stage for you, just going by personal experience.

OTOH, if going for smaller 242s means you get more of those, well then . . .

 

[ParadigmDawg]

Now dont you think we would all use Painted canvas if that was an option. We dont hang ugly stuff on our walls because we like it (lol)

 

[cbraver]

I will in the near future send you pics of some treatments, front and back. Not sure when, but soon.

Painted canvas is reflective. Its not recommended. I know, I've looked into this myself. In fact, I've already mentioned at this sub-forum that the panel companies should prod DuPont to create un-reflective paints.

I know that you said that the drawing is very rough. But it still sticks in my mind. I personally think you are going to want more absorption that the 242. I guess I am just saying I am paranoid of the left heavy stage for you, just going by personal experience.

OTOH, if going for smaller 242s means you get more of those, well then . . .

Yeah, GIK recommends the 244s with more stuff on the left as well. It sounds like the bass traps are the way to go. It's more of a "design" issue than a cost one. I can't put a bunch of panels around my place (girlfriend factor), but I'd be able to get away with a few. I'll probably start with an order of two and then see if I can sneak more in without making my room look like a studio. haha.

I'm also playing between getting a projector or an LCD TV. Leaning towards an LCD TV so I can watch TV with the blackouts open, but I bet those are rather reflective.

 

[jostenmeat]

What's your budget for display?

Dude, go with a PJ.

Trust me.

Is daytime TV is REALLY that important? How good are your TV signals anyways?

Well, if the budget is big enough, I say PJ setup with manual screen. When funds arrive, place a cheap-o flat panel behind it. If you are going with that Integra 9.8, you have dual HDMI outs to boot.

I believe somebody posted a Panasonic 720p plasma 42" for $800 here in the last 24 hrs. Wouldn't shock me if you could find even cheaper.

Something to ponder. PJ = no going back for me. I can't describe it well enough in words.

 

[cbraver]

What's your budget for display?

Dude, go with a PJ.

Trust me.

Is daytime TV is REALLY that important? How good are your TV signals anyways?

Well, if the budget is big enough, I say PJ setup with manual screen. When funds arrive, place a cheap-o flat panel behind it. If you are going with that Integra 9.8, you have dual HDMI outs to boot.

I believe somebody posted a Panasonic 720p plasma 42" for $800 here in the last 24 hrs. Wouldn't shock me if you could find even cheaper.

Something to ponder. PJ = no going back for me. I can't describe it well enough in words.

If I did a projector I'd probably do a fixed screen on the wall. I don't know much about deciding on screen size, what projectors are good, etc. and haven't had time to do much research. Considering a Carada screen and 1080p projector can seemingly be had for less than 3,000USD, it certainly seems competative with LCD/plasma pricing.

One of the main issues would be concealing wiring and such.

I don't have the floorplan in front of me, but, I believe I have about 14ft throw room for the projector, so, it could work.

I ordered the Onkyo Pro (same as Integra 9.8 basically), so that's for sure the unit. Should be here in a week or so, only to sit in a box for a few months, haha. It'll be nice to have everything ready though.