Subwoofer sounds weak (2nd edition)

[davidtk]

Here's my story:

I've had this receiver for a couple years now and I've never quite been able to get a good bass sound from it. Lately I've decided to buckle down and solve the problem.

The receiver I'm using is a Pioneer VSX-1015TX and the Subwoofer is a Yamaha YST-SW216.

The sub has speaker wire input and LFE channel input. I can't use the speaker wire input (not really anyway) because there is no sub speaker wire output on the receiver. On the receiver there is only a sub pre-out. There is a B speaker wire output for the 7.1 surround, but that's not really important.

So I use an RCA cable to plug the sub (through the left channel) into the receiver via sub pre-out.

The problem is this. There is no way the signal is being transmitted correctly. The sub sounds distant and only when I max out the sound do I get any sort of decent rumble.

Before I started messing around with this Pioneer I was using a Kenwood with a speaker wire output. The sound was amazing. The Kenwood did not have a sub pre-out however. Saying this, my sub is definitely not broken.

I took the receiver to a local audio/video expert store (sound pro) and talked to a guy for a while. He had some ideas, mostly having to do with the settings on the receiver. I brought it and he plugged in a sub he had and than he plugged in an ipod into an analog input and after about 10 minutes he had the thing roaring. I thought this had solved the problem, whatever he did, so I took it home and hooked up my stuff again. Same problem though, weak signal to sub and not getting any bass.

I've been doing research for about an hour now and I can tell you this. It's not a crossover issue, it's not a sound level issue, it's not a "Sub On/Off/Yes/Plus/Etc" issue. The only thing I've found that's remotely interesting is one guy posted that his receiver was stuck on 7.0 and he had to switch it to 5.1. This sounds kinda weird as I've never heard of a receiver putting out only a 7.0 signal and missing the .1.

I'm running out of ideas. The receiver is working fine, the pre-out is working, the sub is working...for some reason they aren't working together. I'm going to have to go sound pro again tomorrow and ask the guy what he did again and as for some reason it's just not working for me. I've read in a few places that a y-splitter is the trick. I haven't tried this because I don't have one lying around, but this doesn't sound like the problem...just a fine adjustment.

It's really agitating. If anybody knows how to fix this, please share.

Thanks, David


From that, I've had a few ideas. One floating around is to use a line level converter? I'm not sure exactly what this is or how it works, but if someone is willing to shed some light on it and see if maybe that's the solution, that'd be great.


FROM PREVIOUS THREAD

David, we're highjacking calnbs thread, which is still going. I suggest that you start a new thread on this topic, and we'll try to get you all set up. Hopefully that's cool with you. Thanks.

As a final remark from me here, if you haven't already, try adjusting the subwoofer output level on your Pioneer.

If you're talking about what I think you are, I've done that. I think you're talking about the setting where you can change the front speakers to small and large and change the sub to (on my receiver) No/Yes/Plus. I've tried every combination. If you're talking about something else though, I'm not sure what it is.

 

[Adam]

I think you're talking about the setting where you can change the front speakers to small and large and change the sub to (on my receiver) No/Yes/Plus. I've tried every combination. If you're talking about something else though, I'm not sure what it is.

I'm talking about the "volume" level of the subwoofer output. This is covered under manually setting the channel level for each speaker on page 47 of your owner's manual.

From the manual on page 48 (and the way that I change the level on my 1015):

You can change the channel levels at any time by using EFFECT/CH SEL and +/– on the remote control. You can set separate levels for the listening modes (Standard, Home THX, Advanced and Stereo/Direct) as well as for the MULTI CH IN mode. However, the listening mode setting will be cleared if you use one of the setups (for example, System Setup or Auto Setup) to set the channel levels at a later date.​

 

[jamie2112]

It sounds like the darn thing need a swift kick Adam's suggestion is a spot on hit again.....If that doesn't work send it back.

 

[Adam]

Another thought. You shouldn't have to do this, but just in case it comes to this: You can hook up the Pioneer 1015 to the speaker level inputs on the sub. You would connect the speaker wires for the front two speakers from the receiver to the sub, then connect speaker wires from the sub to the front two speakers. You would then set the front speakers to large and set the menu for no sub. This would send all of the bass (for small speakers and the LFE track) to the front speakers, which in your case would go through the sub and its crossover and then on to the front speakers.

 

[jamie2112]

He should send it back before it get's to that point. I would say anyhow..

 

[Adam]

He should send it back before it get's to that point. I would say anyhow..

Yeah, I would agree...but it sounds like he's had it for at least a couple of years. Probably past the return window.

 

[jamie2112]

Yeah, I would agree...but it sounds like he's had it for at least a couple of years. Probably past the return window.

Didn't see that...sorry duh

 

[davidtk]

Yeah no return for me.

So passing through the sub for the 2 fronts. Am I getting a bass signal coming out of the sub as well? Or is the bass only coming out of the 2 fronts now? (which would kinda work because they're floor standing).

*wait, i get what you're saying about this. that won't produce the .1 signal though using a digital source will it?

I turned the sound level (found on page 48) all the way to 10db and it's still the same. I can't get even a remotely good sounding bass until i turn the receiver up way past its normal volume level, in fact it's pretty much maxed. when i max it though it gets horribly distorted, though there is bass. but i can force whatever sound is leaking into it by maxxing out everything...but that's just not right.

i'm interested in page 8 of the yamaha manual though. it talks about plugging the sub into the receiver using pre-outs, but it says not to if the receiver doesn't have two pre-outs? i'm a little confused over this. here's the link (i can't post links? have to have 5 posts or more lol). google yst-sw216 manual and its the first link...



well 8 is the diagram. page 7 has some explanations in the 'notes'

also, what about this line level converter?

ultimately i wouldn't care too much and just use my kenwood. but i hate knowing it works, but not for me ya know? it's like my mission. also my kenwood is low-end and the pioneer is mid-range with thx support


*one more edit. i just noticed you have the same receiver i do. are you using the pre-out? have you ever had problems with it? is the problem my sub not being able to receive the pre-out signal? bleh, frustrating lol

 

[sparky77]

Have you tried a different cable from the receiver to the sub? It might just be as simple as a defective cable.

 

[TLS Guy]

The problem is it is a lousy sub. In fact it is not a sub, it is woolly ponker.

If you look at the specs, you will see the 10db point is 25 Hz. So the 3db point will be mid thirties! Your towers probably do as well or better.

If you try and drive bass out of that, all you will get is a blown driver, that is why it distorts so much. You won't get bass out of that with anything, no matter how you connect it.

Build or buy a better sub, with and F3 at least in the 25Hz range or preferably below.

 

[Adam]

I saw the comment in the manual about having two preouts. At first, it got my attention, too. However, I firmly believe that it's referring to another type of situation - one that doesn't apply to your receiver.

You've gotten two remarks now about trying a different cable. I'd say give that a try if you haven't already.

Something that came to mind this morning is to connect the subwoofer cable to the right input jack on the sub. True, it's not the one that the manual says to use - but you've done that without success. Perhaps the two jacks were connected incorrectly during production. Just an idea.

Be sure that when you start doing these things that you have the other parameters (crossover, speaker settings, volume levels) set where they should be to have the sub working. I mention that because you're probably going to be tweaking a number of things to see how they work, and it's always possible to have something set wrong when you try a new connection which will incorrectly lead you to believe that the new connection didn't fix anything.

As for hooking up the sub through the speaker level inputs like I mentioned above, you would get all of the bass from a soundtrack. When you tell the receiver that you don't have a sub, it will send the LFE (.1) track to the fronts.

 

[davidtk]

i gotta get my reply in before i go to work


Yeah I don't think the two-outs is the issue either. It should work fine with the one pre-out to the left input (or the right for that matter, though it's better to go left) I've done both.

A guy at a audio/video specialist store actually got the receiver working with one of his subs. I'm going to have to go back and ask him exactly what he has and what he's hooking up with because it's not working with my sub, though I know my sub works because I've tested it on other receivers.

The problem is it is a lousy sub. In fact it is not a sub, it is woolly ponker.

If you look at the specs, you will see the 10db point is 25 Hz. So the 3db point will be mid thirties! Your towers probably do as well or better.

If you try and drive bass out of that, all you will get is a blown driver, that is why it distorts so much. You won't get bass out of that with anything, no matter how you connect it.

Build or buy a better sub, with and F3 at least in the 25Hz range or preferably below.

No, that's not it. The sub is a great sub. I mean, really it's a 150 dollar sub running off of a 500 dollar receiver. There's nothing abnormal about that. The bass I'm getting is not distorted until I max out, but that's because I'm driving everything max. The bass (if the signal is passing correctly which I don't think it is) should sound a lot different, not the distant auditorium like rumble I'm getting.

Have you tried a different cable from the receiver to the sub? It might just be as simple as a defective cable.

I've tried 2 or 3 different basic rca cables. All with the same result. However I'm starting to think that might be the case anyway. Like I said up top I'm going to have to go back to this guy and figure out what exactly he was using.

Finally, I'm not convinced that the tweaking settings are the issue. I've tweaked with other receivers and I can tell the different. With this problem though it doesn't change anything, aside from driving the weak signal louder (which isn't actually solving anything because you still have a weak signal). In a way it's like having a bad radio station and turning your volume up all the way just to hear anything. As soon as you get to a good signal station and haven't changed the volume, your speakers blast you to hell. So it's something to do with the connection.

Thanks for all your help so far guys. I feel like I'm getting closer to the solution.

 

[TLS Guy]

i gotta get my reply in before i go to work


Yeah I don't think the two-outs is the issue either. It should work fine with the one pre-out to the left input (or the right for that matter, though it's better to go left) I've done both.

A guy at a audio/video specialist store actually got the receiver working with one of his subs. I'm going to have to go back and ask him exactly what he has and what he's hooking up with because it's not working with my sub, though I know my sub works because I've tested it on other receivers.



No, that's not it. The sub is a great sub. I mean, really it's a 150 dollar sub running off of a 500 dollar receiver. There's nothing abnormal about that. The bass I'm getting is not distorted until I max out, but that's because I'm driving everything max. The bass (if the signal is passing correctly which I don't think it is) should sound a lot different, not the distant auditorium like rumble I'm getting.


I've tried 2 or 3 different basic rca cables. All with the same result. However I'm starting to think that might be the case anyway. Like I said up top I'm going to have to go back to this guy and figure out what exactly he was using.

Finally, I'm not convinced that the tweaking settings are the issue. I've tweaked with other receivers and I can tell the different. With this problem though it doesn't change anything, aside from driving the weak signal louder (which isn't actually solving anything because you still have a weak signal). In a way it's like having a bad radio station and turning your volume up all the way just to hear anything. As soon as you get to a good signal station and haven't changed the volume, your speakers blast you to hell. So it's something to do with the connection.

Thanks for all your help so far guys. I feel like I'm getting closer to the solution.

Where did you set the crossover on other receivers. The spec sheet clearly states the frequency margins at 10 db slope points. That has to be a deliberate attempt to mislead. Set your crossover to 140 Hz for a test and see what the output is from your sub. If it has a good spl with the higher crossover, then your sub is in fact not a sub.

If it is still quiet then your receiver does not have enough output at the LFE port to drive that sub, but apparently other subs. Sometimes this is due to the sub's input impedance being too low for the receiver.

This is where test equipment gets to be essential. If you had an amplified high impedance meter, you could measure the output at your LFE output loaded and unloaded by the sub.

As I see it there are only two possibilities, that your sub is in fact not a sub, and the specs are stated in a highly suspect form, or there is a voltage and or impedance incompatibility between your sub and receiver. It will likely take test equipment to tell you what is going on.

 

[Sheep]

Where did you set the crossover on other receivers. The spec sheet clearly states the frequency margins at 10 db slope points. That has to be a deliberate attempt to mislead. Set your crossover to 140 Hz for a test and see what the output is from your sub. If it has a good spl with the higher crossover, then your sub is in fact not a sub.

If it is still quiet then your receiver does not have enough output at the LFE port to drive that sub, but apparently other subs. Sometimes this is due to the sub's input impedance being too low for the receiver.

This is where test equipment gets to be essential. If you had an amplified high impedance meter, you could measure the output at your LFE output loaded and unloaded by the sub.

As I see it there are only two possibilities, that your sub is in fact not a sub, and the specs are stated in a highly suspect form, or there is a voltage and or impedance incompatibility between your sub and receiver. It will likely take test equipment to tell you what is going on.

I know you really want to believe that his Yamaha subwoofer is too small for you, and you're way better then it, but I've heard a 6.5inch Yamaha subwoofer that put out plenty of bass. Something is actually wrong here, give it up.

We need to know where you subwoofer is set up, how large your room is, and where you sit to listen to the subwoofer.

SheepStar

 

[croseiv]

The problem is it is a lousy sub. In fact it is not a sub, it is woolly ponker.

.

LOL!!! Very funny way of putting it, but I agree. I am running the 1015 with a PB13-Ultra. Sounds great. No issues with the receiver at all. In fact I calibrated with the sub level (in the receiver) at -5 dB with the gain turned to 11 o'clock. This gives me 75 dB at -15 on the master volume (72dB for the mains and surrounds). Sounds like your sub is probably the issue here.

[your sub sounds weak cause it is weak]

 

[sparky77]

Here's a simple test for you to try, run a stereo rca patch cable from the analog outputs of a cd or dvd player to the rca inputs on the sub, and pop in an audio cd. You should get some pretty good bass out of the sub if the amps inputs are working correctly. Try this test and let us know how it turns out.....

 

[davidtk]

Well, it's a little crazy but I got it working.

The sub is, in fact, a sub. That's not the point I will be trying to make here though lol

Where to start. Before I got my hands on this receiver it was being used by my folks and they had a powerful klipsch 12" sub. the receiver never seemed to be outputting the signal correctly as it was always vibrating badly and never sounded spot on. the bass at that point was very distorted (which is the problem I've been dealing with since the beginning over 2 years ago) but because they had such a powerful system going (identical klipsch floor and satellite speakers) it wasn't too terrible of a deal except for people like me who want the sound to be perfect, not just satisfactory. since than i've taken the receiver from them and bought them a new yamaha whichs works wonders for their set-up. anyway now i've been playing with this old receiver trying to get it to work correctly and today i finally was able to get everything perfect. the problem is, i'm not sure what, when or how i got it to be perfect. so i'll list everything i've done.

before seriously sitting down and tampering with it i had just played with the tone levels and distance.

yesterday i sat down and read the whole manual. i reset the receiver, set all the settings to be perfect for the system i had (distance, db levels and so forth) and in theory everything should be sounding perfect. still having the issue of distorted bass though.

today i was working and a couple guys from radio shack came in and i started talking to them about it and they told me to bring it in (radioshack's right next door). i brought my receiver, sub, rca cable i was using and a zune and some hookups to show them what i had been up to.

after i showed them the distorted sound they grabbed another receiver and tried hooking it up. same deal, distorted sound out of the sub. so next he found a thx sub cable and plugged that in. INSTANT DIFFERENCE! the bass was smooth and silky, like it should be. grabbed my receiver and plugged in the sub with the new cords and it worked the same.

so i bought the thx sub cables (with a inexpensive splitter) and went home and set everything back up again. turned on transformers (my test movie) and it was exactly what i had imagined. the sound is incredible by the way. rich if you will.

so in conclusion i think before when it was hooked up to my folks klipsch (with thx wires btw) the settings must have been off and i wasn't experienced enough to know the difference and when i hooked it up to my system years later, it was the wire that became the problem. in a way i should've recognized this. when it was in my parents it was loud but distorted and crummy, on mine it was quiet distant and distorted. so different scenarios for both receivers, but in the end there was a solution to both.

my advice to anyone that runs into the problem of a feint quiet sub is to get better cables, they really do make the difference. tweaking is definitely important too but the cables man...the cables

 

[Adam]

Thanks for updating us! It's always nice to know if things worked out or not.

To be honest, after reading that you'd tried two or three different cables, I figured that wasn't the problem. It's nice that the folks at Radio Shack got you hooked up. My subs have always been hooked up with "subwoofer" cables, and I didn't think to ask what kind of cables you were using. My bad.

Anyway, glad that it's finally living up to your expectations!

 

[croseiv]

my advice to anyone that runs into the problem of a feint quiet sub is to get better cables, they really do make the difference. tweaking is definitely important too but the cables man...the cables

I wish it were only that simple... Glad it worked for you though.

 

[croseiv]

What's a woolly ponker?