Noob speaker placement questions *pictures*

A

alexwakelin

Full Audioholic
Sorry for the noobish questions. I detailed the purchase of my first HT system in this thread: http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46957

The dvd player arrived yesterday, the rest of the system should arrive thurs/fri :D

Here's my system:
Fronts: existing jbl bookshelfs
Center: speakercompany.com RC1
Rears: jbl tour venue
Sub: Dayton sub 80
Receiver: Sony STR DG510

My living room is 13ft x 17.5ft and one side is mostly open to the kitchen/dining area as you can see in the pictures. The couch is 8ft from the tv. The ceiling is 7.5ft on the left side of the room and 9.5ft on the right.

I know this system is pretty entry level, so I'm not even sure that speaker placement matters that much.

The view from left and right sides of the room. I need to clean off that coffee table :eek:
http://s162.photobucket.com/albums/t268/alexwakelin/?action=view&current=IMG_1851.jpg

http://s162.photobucket.com/albums/t268/alexwakelin/?action=view&current=IMG_1852.jpg

The front speakers will most likely stay where they are, the right speaker needs to be put on a stand. I was thinking of putting the sub to the left of the tv in the corner.

Left side of the room:
http://s162.photobucket.com/albums/t268/alexwakelin/?action=view&current=IMG_1856.jpg

I was thinking of wall mounting the LR speaker near the light switch.

Right side of the room:
http://s162.photobucket.com/albums/t268/alexwakelin/?action=view&current=IMG_1857.jpg

The only place I can think of for the RR speaker is on the wall to the right of the loveseat.

As you can see, anyone sitting on the couch will not be directly centered between the two speakers.

http://s162.photobucket.com/albums/t268/alexwakelin/?action=view&current=IMG_1858.jpg

The area between the two sofas is a high traffic area and speaker stands aren't really an option as they will most likely eventually get knocked over. Running the wire to the RR speaker will probably be an issue as well, any suggestions on how to do that? Thanks in advance for any input.

Sorry for the links, pics weren't showing up in my post.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Hmm. First of all, I believe placement is HUGE. About as important as the speakers chosen, roughly, IMO.

The imbalance of distance between light switch and . . . (where does the left surround go?) is too great. I guess you can try... but... this is what I think will happen: effects on the left will overpower you, and you hear next to nothing on the right. Well, that's the worst case scenario, but I have listened to systems like that. Ugh. Maybe someone else can give you more hopeful input.

Can you possibly consider wall mounting? Pretend you are seated on the most direct viewing position. The couch next to door, but on the right side of couch. That looks like your sweetspot, correct?

Then perhaps a speaker at 90-110 degrees (depending who you ask) to both sides, up a bit higher on the wall. 90 will probably be more feasible in this room. There are a number of speakers that are wall-mountable, and yours might* be as well. Off the top of my head, I know that PSB Alphas and Ascend 170 SE are wall mountable.

Regarding left-front speaker in the corner. Id pull it out as much as you can while maintaining good effect. The corner placement is going to provide a left-heavy soundstage because of the reflections of the nearby sidewall. The right speaker, OTOH, is in free-space. This happens in a lot of residences, unfortunately. If willing, treatments on the left side will help, but perhaps not completely cure the situation. That being said, one step at a time.

Regarding sub placement. I've never liked corner loaded subs. I always find the modes excited there are often of a high enough frequency to be completely localizable. But, YMMV. Some very knowledgable folks DO like corner loading. Just not me, in my experiences.

I hope this helps, and congrats.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
I wanted to add:

the light switch might work, but I have some strong doubts. You will not, and cannot, make this perfect for all viewers. So try to go for at least one money-seat. This is another compromise that many people make. Matter of philosophy I suppose.

If none of the situations regarding surrounds are going to work properly, I suggest you just concentrate on the front 3. Believe it or not, completely taking out the surrounds is advised more often than people might believe. However, I think that you can pull it off . . . especially if wall mounting is ok.

There are some wire mgmt white strips, even paintable, that you can run up vertically on the wall, if fishing is out of the question.
 
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
I think I see a ceiling up there. You could...huh...use in-ceilings for your surrounds...
 
Djizasse

Djizasse

Senior Audioholic
I don't know if your receiver has individual speaker volume adjustment. This feature could help you minimize the effect of the asymmetrical positioning of the rear speakers. The left rear speaker would have a volume cut to adjust for the closer distance.

You seem to have nailed the front speakers and sub positions. That will work.
As for the rear ones, things don't look so great. I would try to place the rears mounted on the back wall, pointed to the TV. They would have to be mounted way up, to let the door open.

You best bet would be to put the rear right speaker on a stand, fixed to the right corner of your couch (to prevent falls), and point them to each other.

Nice Husky ;)
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
I think I see a ceiling up there. You could...huh...use in-ceilings for your surrounds...
In ceilings are the least desirable, if one could have his way. Free standing, on-wall, then in-ceiling. He can do the wall mounts in this case. Besides, he already seems wary of running/fishing wire.

I don't know if your receiver has individual speaker volume adjustment. This feature could help you minimize the effect of the asymmetrical positioning of the rear speakers. The left rear speaker would have a volume cut to adjust for the closer distance.
In my experiences, this solution does not have a very great chance. Equidistant placement seems to be available with the on-walls, at least for the money-spot. If placement is by the switch, nobody can enjoy an ideal setup.

You seem to have nailed the front speakers and sub positions. That will work.
As for the rear ones, things don't look so great. I would try to place the rears mounted on the back wall, pointed to the TV. They would have to be mounted way up, to let the door open.
With the caveat of the two aforementioned issues I run into. If he is to go the trouble of mounting those on the rear wall, I say he should also follow my idea as well, implying a 7.1 setup. FWIW, one of the guys I respect the most on any AV forum actually recommends 90 degrees for side surrounds. If the present seating cannot allow for at least a great of an angle as 90, Im sure scooting up the couch just a foot or so will do the trick. FWIW.

You best bet would be to put the rear right speaker on a stand, fixed to the right corner of your couch (to prevent falls), and point them to each other.
Which couch, exactly? I see some serious issues with either one, really.
 
A

alexwakelin

Full Audioholic
Thanks for everyone's input thus far.


The couch next to door, but on the right side of couch. That looks like your sweetspot, correct?
Correct, that is the sweetspot. I just measured, that seat is actually (almost) exactly 6.5ft from the left and right walls in the room. Happy accident I guess.

The problem is that only one viewer is going to get decent sound. The loveseat is rarely used. It's usually just me and my girlfriend, and she is just as happy with the speakers on the tv. But maybe if this ends up sound good she'll end up seeing the light.

When thre are more then two viewers I usually bring an extra chair in the room and put it to the right of the couch.

UPS dropped off the jbl's today, they did come with wall mount brackets. Mounting the rears on the back wall would probably be easier since there are heat vents in the front and back of the room the wire could go through (not sure how the wire would hold up to the heat though).

Ceiling mount is a no go, due to the vaulted ceiling there is no attic/crawl space. If there was I would just fish the wires down the wall. I spent a couple years installing commercial 70 volt audio systems, but I know next to nothing about home theater, and never had to run wire under carpet. The only other options for running wires is under the carpet or through the crawl space under the house.

I don't know if your receiver has individual speaker volume adjustment.
Hmm...neither do I, but the description says it comes with a mic that calibrates all of them automatically. I assume this means you place the mic where you will be sitting and it somehow adjusts all of your speakers to sound best in that seat?

Nice Husky
Thanks, she's a complete idiot but very sweet.

You best bet would be to put the rear right speaker on a stand, fixed to the right corner of your couch (to prevent falls), and point them to each other.

Which couch, exactly?
http://s162.photobucket.com/albums/t268/alexwakelin/?action=view&current=IMG_1857.jpg

So the best options so far seem to be running the speaker wire through the vent and wall mounting them at the back of the room, if you look closely you can see the vent on the floor, there is a similar one at the front of the room next to the tv.

http://s162.photobucket.com/albums/t268/alexwakelin/?action=view&current=IMG_1858.jpg

Option #2 is wall mounting the speakers on the left and right walls which would require fishing wire under the carpet.

Sorry for the long winded post, and thanks again for everyone's input.
 
Djizasse

Djizasse

Senior Audioholic
Let's only consider the main couch and ignore the side one :)

The back wall mounting option, as jostenmeat says, is not good. The speakers would be way high. That leaves only the side walls or the speaker stand for the RR.

I've checked your receiver and it's only 5.1. There's no 6.1 or 7.1 option. If it has a mic to calibrate the system, it may have at least some volume adjustment for each speaker, please check the manual. That would allow for getting the front pair and the rear pair in balance.

It might be an illusion due to the photos perspective, but it seems to me that the right side wall ends before the primary listening position. Mounting a speaker in this position would not allow for rear effects, unless you point to the back wall and count on reflections to provide the rear effect (would that work?)
For the pictures it also seems to me that the primary listening position cannot be on the right of the couch because the TV is not aligned to it, nor are the front speakers. Will you align the TV and the speakers to the right couch position?

From an installation perspective, mounting on the right side wall will have the burden of having to find a way for the speaker cable to get there. This is a deal breaker for some folks. Is that a problem for you?

For me it seems that the best option would be to get a speaker stand for the RR and fix the base to the couch. I don't understand why this would not work. Jostem, could you please explain?

Djizasse,
ps - my brother has 2 female huskies, one is like a hurricane, the other is more calm. Both very sweet. Lovely dogs.
 
A

alexwakelin

Full Audioholic
Let's only consider the main couch and ignore the side one :)
That's what I was thinking.

it seems to me that the right side wall ends before the primary listening position.
It does, by about a foot:mad:

it also seems to me that the primary listening position cannot be on the right of the couch because the TV is not aligned to it, nor are the front speakers. Will you align the TV and the speakers to the right couch position?
I was planning on doing that, I only need to move the tv about 6 inches to the right which isn't a problem.

From an installation perspective, mounting on the right side wall will have the burden of having to find a way for the speaker cable to get there. This is a deal breaker for some folks. Is that a problem for you?
This is the speaker that will probably need the wire ran to it under that carpet. I have lots of experience fishing wire, but never under carpet, how difficult is this?

For me it seems that the best option would be to get a speaker stand for the RR and fix the base to the couch
It sounds like a speaker stand is the way to go then.

Oh yeah, my husky only came with 2 settings: hurricane and off:D
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Let's only consider the main couch and ignore the side one :)

The back wall mounting option, as jostenmeat says, is not good. The speakers would be way high. That leaves only the side walls or the speaker stand for the RR.
Some in walls have adjustable tweeter direction. I actually have more of an issue that its so directly behind than I do having it that high, even if that may or may not be undersirable.

I've checked your receiver and it's only 5.1. There's no 6.1 or 7.1 option. If it has a mic to calibrate the system, it may have at least some volume adjustment for each speaker, please check the manual. That would allow for getting the front pair and the rear pair in balance.
I would imagine that all modern receivers have adjustable gain per speaker. Especially if it has auto cal, it just must have it I imagine.

It might be an illusion due to the photos perspective, but it seems to me that the right side wall ends before the primary listening position. Mounting a speaker in this position would not allow for rear effects, unless you point to the back wall and count on reflections to provide the rear effect (would that work?)
Not very effectively I think. I was even pondering the idea of mentioning bipole surrounds for greater coverage, but that type depends on reflection more than monopoles would. Since its not an assymetrical closed room, I bit my tongue on that one. But you never know, or I sure don't, because I've never tried them yet. A personal taste in any case as well.

I think if he scooted up the couch a foot or so, and the rt side speaker was as close to the edge of wall as possible... it might work out. 90 degrees should be perfectly fine.

For the pictures it also seems to me that the primary listening position cannot be on the right of the couch because the TV is not aligned to it, nor are the front speakers. Will you align the TV and the speakers to the right couch position?
This is a good point. And the further the left-front speaker is away from those boundaries, the better IMO, but YMMV, and it will take some experimenting in placement. For sure. Alex, make sure to leave extra speaker wire until positions are finalized. Im talking on the order of a month before you cut the extra off.

For me it seems that the best option would be to get a speaker stand for the RR and fix the base to the couch. I don't understand why this would not work. Jostem, could you please explain?
Sure, I can explain my opinion. For one, the loveseat on the right is scrooed. All pans will be on the left, all of em. But the thing I worry about most in that situation is how darn close the speaker is to the head. I guess it can work out... set the gain WAY low. SPL decreases exponentially with distance, or vice versa. I think if I was to put it that close, Id want the other that close as well? But then with two viewers, the surround from the opposite side could be blocked my a person's head? So, then, if you mount high enough, it just might look rather funny? Oh I don't know man. Also, with the third chair that he mentioned, that person would again have all pans on the left.

I think mounting on wall is the wtg. Or in-walls for clean look. If Alex goes to the extent of fishing, I vote to fish for rears as well. Just for ease of future additions. If he is doing half the work already... maybe? Whether they are mounting plates, or having wire stick out. A bit of ugliness that hopefully can be minimized. I think 7.1 would work quite well there. My 2 cents. Hopefully some of our resident installers might see this and chime in.
 
Djizasse

Djizasse

Senior Audioholic
OK, I get what you're saying.
I was considering the middle of the couch to be the primary listening position. But that would only work for that position. With the speakers so close to couch, it would ruin the rear imaging for anyone not on the center of the couch.

The side walls mounting could work if the speakers were pointing to the back. At least it would provide a diffused rear soundstage, somewhat minimizing positioning problems. Pan's would not be as strong but would be there.

I guess your best plan is to try, get some wood planks to serve as speaker supports and test these options. Be sure to get the dog out of the room ;)
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
The side walls mounting could work if the speakers were pointing to the back. At least it would provide a diffused rear soundstage, somewhat minimizing positioning problems. Pan's would not be as strong but would be there.
I didn't open up the photo links again, but I think that 90 degrees just might be possible. If willing to scoot up the couch a foot or so. I think it can work just GREAT. I suppose bipolar surrounds will use those reflections to some degree, but I think for a monopole, just fire them direct 90 degrees.

Icing on the cake would be rears for 7.1. I think it would sound just great. Throw in LOTR, ES/extended versions. No going back after that. :D

I think the layout would actually be quite ideal, outside perhaps of mounting a bit high. Which is better than mounting too low. And definitely better than varying speaker distances.
 
Djizasse

Djizasse

Senior Audioholic
Dipoles on the sides and two rears. I would like that in my room :D
 

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