Trying to figure out existing wholehome speaker setup...

[Shell]

Recently bought a home that has speakers and volume controls installed, but no sources. Need to figure out where to go from here.

First, the locations...
-4 SpeakerCraft old generation AIM series speakers in my living room, mounted in the vaulted ceiling, no associated VC. I plan to use these as the surrounds in a 7.1 system.
-1 Speakercraft and SpeakerCraft VC in the master bath.
-2 Speakercrafts(not AIM) in the 3rd floor greatrooom, with SpeakerCRaft VC on wall.
-I have wiring in place for 6 outdoor speakers, but the speakers are missing. There are 3 associated SpeakerCraft VC's with these speakers.

I'm leaning towards an Onkyo TX-NR905 for the reciever, and using the living room and masterbath as the amplified Zone 1.
Zone 2(line-level) would be upstairs.
Zone 3(line-level) would be outside, I would also like to add a pair of rock speakers. 2 VC's would control a pair each, and 1 VC would be controlling 2 pairs. If that matters.

The wiring comes to a central location and most of it is labelled, so I don't think ID will be a huge problem. The runs are all drastically difference lengths due to the locations of the speakers, and the wiring is 16 AWG. So, that's smallish already, right? The writing on the wires is: "LIberty wire and Cable, 03/05/99-3L2, E111196-16 AWG-CL3 or CM". So, it's 16 gauge, made in 99, and that's where my understanding ends.
There are also some ceramic-looking blocks attached to some of the wires, marked P312 ECG 12 OHM 5%. I assume this has something to do with impedance matching? Does this sound neccesary and is that the correct way to do it?

My main questions right now concern amplification to the different zones. Should I use small amps close to the speakers, and if so, how do I wire them regarding placement between the VC and speakers? Where should I look to see if they are already in place? Is there a common place the installers usually put them?
Or is better to use a multichannel amp that could power the line level zone 2/3 outputs from over by the AVR?

I'll just stop there for now. I have a ton of other questions but his post is already long enough. Thanks for taking the time to help me figure this out, I know I have a lot to learn.

 

[bandphan]

Niles Audio, russound, and speakercraft make multizone Amps that can be used with multizone avrs. Is there Cat5 wiring at the headend? Do all the outside speaker drops return to the headend?

 

[jcPanny]

Whole house audio

Shell,
You got some good speakers with the house. It sounds like you have regular knob type VCs in several rooms. Take the cover plate off of a couple and verify that they are the impdance matching type w/ jumpers labled 1x, 2x, 4x, 8x, etc. If this is not the case, you will need to replace the VCs to use the configuration below.

Main HT: Consider a less expensive receiver like the Onkyo 805. It has the 3 zone control and plenty of power for the main 7.1 system. Since you are using 7.1, the receiver WILL NOT power zone 2 or zone 3.
http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-TX-SR805-Channel-Theater-Receiver/dp/B000OBJW1S

Zone 2 and 3: Get a powerful stereo amp with 100 watts/channel or more. Consider the Behringer A500 for $180 each. The A500 delivers over 200 Watts into 4 ohms. Connect the upstairs and bedroom to one amp (zone 2) and the outdoor speakers to the other amp (zone 3). The impedance matching VCs are what allow you to connect several speakers to the same stereo amp. Use the VCs for the impdance matching and not external resistors, etc.

 

[Shell]

Bandphan, no Cat5, and I haven't ID'd all of the wires yet, so I am assuming that it all comes to the headend. Unfortunately, I'm cross country from my house for the next 60 days or so.

JCPanny,
So those are resistors then. This leads me to believe the vc's probably don't have the impedance matching features. Is it bad practice to wire external resistors in line at the amp? Or foolish price-wise compared to just replacing the vcs?

I like the 905 because it has the Ethernet connection, I want hook up a media center PC to it so I can access mp3s and surf the web on the flat panel. I also like that it has 2 hdmi outputs if I decide to add a projector later. I'm aware the zone2/3 are only line-level, I'm ok with that. Thanks for making sure I knew.

Sounds like you are in favor of big amps at the avr, rather than remote amps?Is the 16 AWG big enough that signal loss won't be a problem with 100' runs?

 

[bandphan]

Adding a item like the niles si 1230 to an avr that has the features that you need would an easy thing with some flexibility. There are some newer avrs with networking features, some with onscreen display and since you have some time check out a few and let us know if you have any questiòns. Also the pioneer elite displays have networking: just note it can take a while to setup your computer and you just need to hard wire for best results

 

[Shell]

The Niles SI 1230 seems to have alot more to offer than the Behringer A500's, but that may be my lack of understanding. It guess the Niles just seems to offer it in a simpler, single package.
I'll do some more comparison shopping, looking to find some other avr's in the sub $1500 range, and try to find some alternatives to the Niles SI 1230 as well.

 

[bandphan]

The Niles SI 1230 seems to have alot more to offer than the Behringer A500's, but that may be my lack of understanding. It guess the Niles just seems to offer it in a simpler, single package.
I'll do some more comparison shopping, looking to find some other avr's in the sub $1500 range, and try to find some alternatives to the Niles SI 1230 as well.

they are two dfferent animals, one is really designed for multi zone and the other is just an amp

 

[jcPanny]

Home audio system

JCPanny,
So those are resistors then. This leads me to believe the vc's probably don't have the impedance matching features. Is it bad practice to wire external resistors in line at the amp? Or foolish price-wise compared to just replacing the vcs?

I like the 905 because it has the Ethernet connection, I want hook up a media center PC to it so I can access mp3s and surf the web on the flat panel. I also like that it has 2 hdmi outputs if I decide to add a projector later. I'm aware the zone2/3 are only line-level, I'm ok with that. Thanks for making sure I knew.

Sounds like you are in favor of big amps at the avr, rather than remote amps?Is the 16 AWG big enough that signal loss won't be a problem with 100' runs?

Shell,
Yes, I would ditch the resistors, it complicates the installation. You can get new IMVCs for $20-30 each. Your best bet might be to add a couple impedance matching speaker selector boxes for use with the existing VCs.

The distribution amps made by Niles, Russound and other companies are nice and have a seperate amp channel for each speaker. It will be $2-3k for a couple of these amps to power your system. To take full advantage, you would need cat5 to each room and keypads (>$100 each). This would make each room its own zone so you could select any source in any room.
The lower tech solution is to use 3 zones, (main HT, inside, and outside) by adding a couple stereo amps. All the speakers in each zone play the same source, but zone 3 can be playing a different source than zone 1 and 2, etc.
My parents million dollar house has the high tech Russound system with keypads. My house has the lower tech stereo amp system for audio in 5 extra rooms.

There are a lot of ways to stream audio to your receiver and most would work better than the networking built into many new receivers. If you can use the PC to control the source, then all you need is a digital audio cable ($10) or an Apple Airport Express ($100) depending on the location of the PC. Other more elaborate systems are the Apple TV and the Logitech Squeeze Box 3 or Duet. The Apple TV has a very nice gui and also steams pictures and video in addition to audio.

Don't wory about the existing wiring, 16 awg is adequate. If you are running new speaker wire, consider 14 awg for the longer runs.

 

[Shell]

Whole House = Whole Lot More to Learn

I'm going to have teh honey take off my face plates today and tell me what she sees.
I also think I see what you're saying JC. If I save a few hundred on the reciever and forego the networking capabilities, than I could spend that money on a dedicated product that provides a better quality solution.
I guess I could skip the extra equipment and just hook up the media PC directly to the TV instead of streaming. That would allow me to surf then, as well as play mp3s. Are runs of 30' or so too long for monitor cabling?
Another thing I'd be skipping with the cheaper Onkyo is the better video processing, but if I make sure I buy good sources, I don't need it anyway, right?
On a related note... If the flat panel, reciever and the source all have video processing capabilities than how does the equipment decide who's gonna process? Is this something that users configure?

Regarding stereo amps, how many speakers are the a500's capable of pushing?

 

[Shell]

I guess the A500's capacity depends on the impedance of re speaker and its sensitivity also. So that was a pretty open question, sorry. I'll do my own research there.

 

[jcPanny]

Amplifier Power

Shell,
The Behringer A500 is one example of an inexpensive pro amp. It will deliver >200 Watts/channel into 4 ohms.
http://www.etronics.com/p-2900-behringer-a500-reference-studio-power-amplifier.aspx?dp=E2F2C2D222E622325393836383B357037363730323A313&svbname=403&bname=GoogleBase
In your application, the total power is divided by the number of speakers connected to the amp. If you have >25 watts per speaker then you should be pretty good for most rooms and small outdoor spaces.

For a more elegant solution, check out a HT amp like the Emotiva XPA-5. It delivers 200 Watts @ 8 ohms and 300 @ 4 ohms to each of five channels. It also has some convenience features you wont find on a pro-amp.
http://www.emotiva.com/xpa5.html

If you want to hold off on the amp purchase, you could get the receiver and test it on each of your zones (w/ impedance matching equipment). The receiver should deliver over 100 Watts per channel in stereo mode and you can test the max volume level in different rooms or outside.

Concerning the PC, VGA or composite video runs are fine at 30'. Digital video (HDMI or DVI) start to get more difficult and expensive at these lengths. Also digital audio (coax or optical) is not problem for 30' or longer runs.

You are correct that if you have decent source material(HD cable or satelite, upscaling DVD, bluray, etc.) then you don't need any video scaling features on the receiver. Also, the TV will always scale the incomming signal to its native resolution (720p, 1080p, etc.) Some TVs have better internal scalers than others.

 

[Shell]

I read the Receiver connections FAQ article but it didn't address this...
I am picturing the XPA-5 being used this way: 1 channel for my upstairs pair, 1 channel for each pair of my 4 garage speakers, then 1 channel for each pair of my pool speakers(2 on wall, 2 rocks).
I would like to have my garage and pool speakers as zone 2, and my upstairs pair as zone 3. So that all the outside speakers would play from the same source, but we could have something different going on upstairs.
How would you connect things in order to do that?
From looking at the back of the amp, it looks like each channel just plays whatever is plugged into it.
I guess my question is how I can assign 4 channels to zone 2, and one channel to zone 3.
edit-is there another piece of equipment needed to do something like this?

 

[Shell]

Getting there...

I think I'm on the right track now. I guess I'm looking for a way to split the preout from zone 2 into 4 different channels W/O loss of signal strength? There will come a day when I am that I had to ask these simple questions. Until then, back to the sirch.

 

[Shell]

So, I'd want use some RCA Y-splitters to send zone 2 to 4 channels of the Emotiva XPA-5, right? I just didn't think it could be that simple.
Done this way, with 1 channel per speaker pair, do I still need IM VC's?

I have switched gears and decided to forego video in the livingroom, so I'm looking at using an Integra DTM 5.3 stereo reciever instead of the 905.
Why do they list it as a 3 zone/2 source reciever when it only has outputs for zones 1&2 on the back of it?

 

[jcPanny]

Amplifier connections

Shell,
You are close, but not quite there. Each room will have 2 speakers playing stereo which requires 2 channels of amplification. Here is what I recommend if you use the XPA5 (or any other amps for that matter).

Zone 2: Inside house speakers, 2 channels of amplifier. A single stereo RCA cable goes from zone 2 output on the receiver to the 2 inputs on the amplifier.
Zone 3: Outside house speakers, 2 channels of amplifier. A single stereo RCA cable goes from zone 2 output on the receiver to the 2 inputs on the amplifier.

The Impedance matching VCs (or speaker selector) are what allow you to connect 2-8 pairs of speakers to the same amplifier channel. Unless each speaker has its own amplifier channels, than you need some type of impedance matching. Also, FYI, I am using a less powerful Emotiva LPA-1 amp and 2 channels of this amp have no problem powering speakers in 5 rooms of my house with IMVCs. The remaining 5 channels are used for my HT speakers. The Emo UPA-7 is another option with 7 channels and will cost less than the XPA models. Pro amps like the Behringers are the cheapest option.

Good luck.
- JC

 

[Shell]

So you are saying that 2 channels per zone is mandatory for stereo sound, but that I may find that I am able to run more than 1 speaker per channel?
And that is the primary reason for IMVC's use?
I can see how that would be a more cost effective way to power your speakers but I assume this would cause "some"(?) decrease in sound quality, especially if you go overboard adding speakers.
How do you determine your practical limitations?

Say if you take the A500, 100W/channel x 2. Hook up 3 pairs of speakers(3 per channel), does it split your max wattage to ~33W/speaker? How do you determine whether that is sufficient?
This is where a speaker's efficiency comes into play I guess.

edit: after rereading the thread now, I see this is a point you were trying to get through to me 2 posts ago... Thanks for your patience.

 

[jcPanny]

Speaker power

Shell,
You are correct that the power is essentially divided between the speakers. The Behringer amp you mentioned can deliver over 200 Watts into 4 ohms so it could deliver over 50 watts to each of 4 pairs of speakers when setup properly. This is actually quite a bit of power and most of the time your speakers are getting a few watts. If you look at expensive distribution amps you will find that all of them are in the 30-60 watt per channel range.

My Emotiva LPA-1 amp has similar power ratings to the Behringer (125 Watts @ 8 ohms, >200 Watts @ 4 ohms). In my installation with 2 amp channels powering 5 rooms I have found that comfortable background listening levels are at the 2nd or 3rd click on the VC. In other words, the amplifier power is not a limiting factor. For maximum volume in large, open outdoor areas consider Klipsch or similar speakers with horn loaded tweeters and a high sensitivity rating.

If you really need an amp channel for the outdoor sub, look at the Emotiva UPA-7. You could use 4 channels for outdoor speakers, 1 for outdoor amp, and 2 for inside (zone 2) speakers. Amplifier power would not be an issue.