N

ned

Full Audioholic
As of late everytime I have a loud low frequency output I'm loosing my higher freq. Is this my amp giving up already?

I've a Yamaha RXV 2400 with a sunfire TGA 5200.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
As of late everytime I have a loud low frequency output I'm loosing my higher freq. Is this my amp giving up already?

I've a Yamaha RXV 2400 with a sunfire TGA 5200.
I think you have a mismatch between your speakers and your receiver. Your receiver is rated 6 to 8 ohms. I have been around the net and this receiver is prone to problems with four ohm loads.

Now your towers are rated at 4 ohms. However the situation is worse, as your towers have a passive crossover at 100 Hz. this is never to be recommended in my view. The phase angles are going to about as bad as your will find, and the current demands are going to MUCH higher than even the four ohm rating would suggest. Also don't forget that the rated impedance of a speaker does not mean much as there an impedance curve. RGB do not publish the curve, nor do they quote the minimum impedance. From the design set up, I have to say that the minimum impedance could easily be falling to the two ohm range at some point, and with a very difficult phase angle to boot.

There are two possibilities here.

Those RGB speakers have a protection circuit to the tweeter. Now when an amp clips, and this usually occurs when an amp is attempting to dive LF into a low impedance load, then when it can't meet the current demands THD rises and the tweeter receives the distortion products. So I'm pretty sure your tweeter protection is cutting in.

Now it may be that it has been activated so often that it is now kicking in before it should. Often these types of circuits don't tolerate being activated constantly. More likely however, the load presented by these speakers to your receiver, is causing the output devices of your receiver to fail, and clipping is starting to occur at lower and lower power levels.

Those speakers are going to require a hefty amp, with huge current reserve.

You need to pick an amp that delivers at least double the power into a four ohm load that it will deliver into an 8 ohm load. I would also see if RGB will tell you what the minimum impedance of your speakers are, and at what frequency it occurs. It will also be nice if they would share with you the phase angle between voltage and current at that frequency. Also knowing the frequency of the maximum phase angle would be nice, then the power factor required to power the speakers could be calculated and we would know for certain, how low an impedance the amp has to be comfortable with. It would not be out of the question that an amp driving those speakers might have to be comfortable driving a two ohm load because of the phase angles.

Recently I received privileged information from a manufacturer about these parameters where there was a passive crossover in the same region as yours. The impedance curve was an absolute amp torture test, yet the speakers were rated at 8 ohms! The speaker was in fact 8 ohms only above 900 Hz and at the two reflex tuning peaks. At the rest of the spectrum it was below 6 ohms, and at the low pass mid pass crossover region it was 3 ohms. They did not send the phase graph, but it had to be horrible. Even without allowing for that, however, the speakers obviously required a robust amp. A consumer buying the speakers from the spec sheet, would have thought he was buying 8 ohm speakers. He would be buying nothing of the sort!

This post highlights why I'm consistently advocating for the phasing out of the whole concept of the receiver. High current devices make heat and usually lots of it. Last time I checked the specs of the microprocessors used in receivers and pre/processors their absolute maximum safe operating temperature before destruction was 70 degrees C. So actually the internal operating temp should be 50 or less. That would be almost impossible to achieve with multiple high current amps and the large associated power supply required.

So the solution is to move to separates, or better still to powered speakers with active crossovers and an amp for each pass band. Take your speakers for instance, even if only the 100 Hz crossover were active, the improvement in performance would be highly significant.

So my advice for now is to get a nice multichannel amp that will produce twice as much power into a four ohm load as eight. If RGB tell you after inquiry, that the load actually presented is significantly below four ohms, or there is a highly adverse phase angle, then you will have to get amplification that is also comfortable with 2 ohm loads.
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
As of late everytime I have a loud low frequency output I'm loosing my higher freq. Is this my amp giving up already?

I've a Yamaha RXV 2400 with a sunfire TGA 5200.
I doubt it. I think you just need to turn down the subwoofer. Your sub could be responding to the increase in volume to a greater degree than your main speakers (it has a bigger amplifier) and that could be changing the overall frequency response you hear. In other words you may not be experiencing masking of the high frequencies but rather a relatively greater amount of low frequency content bringing the overall frequency response more to the dark side.

If the amplifier is clipping meaningfully, you should hear the distortion. If you don't hear it, then most likely it isn't clipping at all or it isn't clipping enough to alter the frequency response audibly. To test this, set your main speakers to small. That will cause them to draw very little amplifier power - probably a watt or two at normal listening levels and perhaps 10 or 20 on loud peaks. The sub will need and use most of the power available. If it produces a similar masking of the highs, then you know the amp probably wasn't clipping. If it doesn't then I would say you could have some clipping.

It is true that amplifiers can and do respond badly to low impedance loads but in a home environment it is actually less common than one would think. Usually the problems manifest themselves in above average component heating and shorter component life. Things need to get pretty bad to have it affect the sonics. Pretty bad is very common in pro audio in large venues and fairly uncommon in home audio.

As a last note, some speakers tend to behave differently at different volume levels. I have no way to know whether this is the case in your situation but it can and does happen. Some speakers become a little harder or more brittle sounding when they are played loud even when there is no amplifier clipping at all. How our ears respond to that is anyone's guess.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I doubt it. I think you just need to turn down the subwoofer. Your sub could be responding to the increase in volume to a greater degree than your main speakers (it has a bigger amplifier) and that could be changing the overall frequency response you hear. In other words you may not be experiencing masking of the high frequencies but rather a relatively greater amount of low frequency content bringing the overall frequency response more to the dark side.

If the amplifier is clipping meaningfully, you should hear the distortion. If you don't hear it, then most likely it isn't clipping at all or it isn't clipping enough to alter the frequency response audibly. To test this, set your main speakers to small. That will cause them to draw very little amplifier power - probably a watt or two at normal listening levels and perhaps 10 or 20 on loud peaks. The sub will need and use most of the power available. If it produces a similar masking of the highs, then you know the amp probably wasn't clipping. If it doesn't then I would say you could have some clipping.

It is true that amplifiers can and do respond badly to low impedance loads but in a home environment it is actually less common than one would think. Usually the problems manifest themselves in above average component heating and shorter component life. Things need to get pretty bad to have it affect the sonics. Pretty bad is very common in pro audio in large venues and fairly uncommon in home audio.

As a last note, some speakers tend to behave differently at different volume levels. I have no way to know whether this is the case in your situation but it can and does happen. Some speakers become a little harder or more brittle sounding when they are played loud even when there is no amplifier clipping at all. How our ears respond to that is anyone's guess.
You can test this easily. Play a section where this happens, and put your ear in front of one of the main tweeters and see if the tweeter protection circuit is activated and disconnecting the tweeters while you experience this loss of highs. I have a feeling this tweeter protection was put in because the speakers pull a high current, or try to, and they were either having or afraid they would have a bunch of fried tweeters for warranty replacement.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I think you have a mismatch between your speakers and your receiver. Your receiver is rated 6 to 8 ohms. I have been around the net and this receiver is prone to problems with four ohm loads.
I thought he was using the RX-V2400 as a prepro only. He wrote "I've a Yamaha RXV 2400 with a sunfire TGA 5200."

The TGA5200 has the following power specs:

200W x 5 into 8 ohms
400W per channel into 4 ohms
800W per channel into 2 ohms (time-limited basis)

I think we have to keep in mind that while power is important it is not always the De facto problem.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I thought he was using the RX-V2400 as a prepro only. He wrote "I've a Yamaha RXV 2400 with a sunfire TGA 5200."

The TGA5200 has the following power specs:

200W x 5 into 8 ohms
400W per channel into 4 ohms
800W per channel into 2 ohms (time-limited basis)

I think we have to keep in mind that while power is important it is not always the De facto problem.
Sorry I missed the fact that this was a pre pro situation. He still should check that one of his tweeter protection circuits is not acting inappropriately.
 
N

ned

Full Audioholic
I think you have a mismatch between your speakers and your receiver. Your receiver is rated 6 to 8 ohms. I have been around the net and this receiver is prone to problems with four ohm loads.

Now your towers are rated at 4 ohms. However the situation is worse, as your towers have a passive crossover at 100 Hz. this is never to be recommended in my view. The phase angles are going to about as bad as your will find, and the current demands are going to MUCH higher than even the four ohm rating would suggest. Also don't forget that the rated impedance of a speaker does not mean much as there an impedance curve. RGB do not publish the curve, nor do they quote the minimum impedance. From the design set up, I have to say that the minimum impedance could easily be falling to the two ohm range at some point, and with a very difficult phase angle to boot.

There are two possibilities here.

Those RGB speakers have a protection circuit to the tweeter. Now when an amp clips, and this usually occurs when an amp is attempting to dive LF into a low impedance load, then when it can't meet the current demands THD rises and the tweeter receives the distortion products. So I'm pretty sure your tweeter protection is cutting in.

Now it may be that it has been activated so often that it is now kicking in before it should. Often these types of circuits don't tolerate being activated constantly. More likely however, the load presented by these speakers to your receiver, is causing the output devices of your receiver to fail, and clipping is starting to occur at lower and lower power levels.

Those speakers are going to require a hefty amp, with huge current reserve.

You need to pick an amp that delivers at least double the power into a four ohm load that it will deliver into an 8 ohm load. I would also see if RGB will tell you what the minimum impedance of your speakers are, and at what frequency it occurs. It will also be nice if they would share with you the phase angle between voltage and current at that frequency. Also knowing the frequency of the maximum phase angle would be nice, then the power factor required to power the speakers could be calculated and we would know for certain, how low an impedance the amp has to be comfortable with. It would not be out of the question that an amp driving those speakers might have to be comfortable driving a two ohm load because of the phase angles.

Recently I received privileged information from a manufacturer about these parameters where there was a passive crossover in the same region as yours. The impedance curve was an absolute amp torture test, yet the speakers were rated at 8 ohms! The speaker was in fact 8 ohms only above 900 Hz and at the two reflex tuning peaks. At the rest of the spectrum it was below 6 ohms, and at the low pass mid pass crossover region it was 3 ohms. They did not send the phase graph, but it had to be horrible. Even without allowing for that, however, the speakers obviously required a robust amp. A consumer buying the speakers from the spec sheet, would have thought he was buying 8 ohm speakers. He would be buying nothing of the sort!

This post highlights why I'm consistently advocating for the phasing out of the whole concept of the receiver. High current devices make heat and usually lots of it. Last time I checked the specs of the microprocessors used in receivers and pre/processors their absolute maximum safe operating temperature before destruction was 70 degrees C. So actually the internal operating temp should be 50 or less. That would be almost impossible to achieve with multiple high current amps and the large associated power supply required.

So the solution is to move to separates, or better still to powered speakers with active crossovers and an amp for each pass band. Take your speakers for instance, even if only the 100 Hz crossover were active, the improvement in performance would be highly significant.

So my advice for now is to get a nice multichannel amp that will produce twice as much power into a four ohm load as eight. If RGB tell you after inquiry, that the load actually presented is significantly below four ohms, or there is a highly adverse phase angle, then you will have to get amplification that is also comfortable with 2 ohm loads.

Dont you think sunfire is enough? It wasnt doing it before why all of a sudden? Even before I added sunfire the rxv wasn't even doing that.
 
N

ned

Full Audioholic
You can test this easily. Play a section where this happens, and put your ear in front of one of the main tweeters and see if the tweeter protection circuit is activated and disconnecting the tweeters while you experience this loss of highs. I have a feeling this tweeter protection was put in because the speakers pull a high current, or try to, and they were either having or afraid they would have a bunch of fried tweeters for warranty replacement.
Yes they are in fact disconnecting.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Yes they are in fact disconnecting.
Are they both disconnecting? The Sunfire should be enough. However the Sunfire is class H, this is a variant of cless AB but the power to the output devices has a rail switch. May be the high voltage rail switching is not occurring, or there is some other power supply problem with the Sunfire. Your Sunfire may suddenly be able to put out much less lower than you think, and is clipping and activating the tweeter protection in the speakers. If both tweeters are cutting out, I bet the Sunfire is the problem. This is a well know problem with class H amps. Bob Carver loves that topology.
 
N

ned

Full Audioholic
I've another possible answer. The binding posts on Sunfire is very shallow allowing only have of the male side of my banana plugs. Also it has a loose grip too. I think it is short circuiting during those times over even coming loose.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I've another possible answer. The binding posts on Sunfire is very shallow allowing only have of the male side of my banana plugs. Also it has a loose grip too. I think it is short circuiting during those times over even coming loose.
Usually a short results in no sound and causes the amp to protectively shut down or blow the output stage of the shorted channel.

Anyhow do an obsessional wiring job, and see if that cures it. I doubt it will. Stay in touch.
 
N

ned

Full Audioholic
Well I've change all the banana plugs (still waiting for the ones I've ordered the locking from blue jeans) to a smaller stub temporary. I've the same scene and seems to have resolved the issue. I will do more listening to make sure it's resolved completely.
 
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