Denon Amp verses Bryston

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yeh did you not see the 3 before the B .
I think the 3B is 150 x 2 @ 8 ohms . Not sure the headroom on it @ 4 ohms .

Oh, I didn't catch that.

So we're talking about a totally different amp now, not the original OP's 60 watts per channel Bryston. Gotcha.

Yeah, I mean don't get us wrong. Bryston probably has a better recognition name plate than Denon. I could say that Mark Levinson has a much beter prestige than Bryston too. But a 150-watts Mark Levinson is not going to touch a 1,000-watts Bryston, right? Watts are Watts, regardless of name or price.

The OP wanted to know if a 100WPC/4 ohms Bryston is going to improve the sound of his much more powerful 340WPC/4 ohms Denon amp. The answer is NO because not only does the Denon have more POWER, it has better THD% and other specs according to HTM and Audioholics.

 

[PENG]

Oh, I didn't catch that.

So we're talking about a totally different amp now, not the original OP's 60 watts per channel Bryston. Gotcha.

Yeah, I mean don't get us wrong. Bryston probably has a better recognition name plate than Denon. I could say that Mark Levinson has a much beter prestige than Bryston too. But a 150-watts Mark Levinson is not going to touch a 1,000-watts Bryston, right? Watts are Watts, regardless of name or price.

The OP wanted to know if a 100WPC/4 ohms Bryston is going to improve the sound of his much more powerful 340WPC/4 ohms Denon amp. The answer is NO because not only does the Denon have more POWER, it has better THD% and other specs according to HTM and Audioholics.

So in you mind, why would anyone pay $5000 for a 20W Luxman intergrated amp? Just curious.

 

[mtrycrafts]

So in you mind, why would anyone pay $5000 for a 20W Luxman intergrated amp? Just curious.

They have speakers that are very sensitive and money to burn; they are immune to the economy out there

 

[PENG]

They have speakers that are very sensitive and money to burn; they are immune to the economy out there

I understand that too. My point was, we cannot automatically assume more watts are better for all situations. There are situations where more watts will not make any audible difference and it is still/or even possible that in some situations a 20W class A Luxman can beat a 150W class AB Bryston, given the right room acoustic conditions and the right speakers.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So in you mind, why would anyone pay $5000 for a 20W Luxman intergrated amp? Just curious.

They are crazy.

You don't see any amp from Mark Levinson or Krell that is less than 100 watts per ch.

What can I say. Luxman sucks.

Nobody in their right minds would buy such a wussy sissy amp.

My diagnosis: they are just plain crazy.

 

[fmw]

I understand that too. My point was, we cannot automatically assume more watts are better for all situations. There are situations where more watts will not make any audible difference and it is still/or even possible that in some situations a 20W class A Luxman can beat a 150W class AB Bryston, given the right room acoustic conditions and the right speakers.

I'm not sure I would go that far. Certainly both products produce audibly undistorted waveforms at the speaker terminals and certainly 20 wpc is plenty for listening to music in most small rooms. So I would say that, except in those situations where 20 wpc is not enough, they should sound the same. I can't imagine why the Luxman would sound better.

I should mention that Luxman is famous for making knockoffs of other people's designs - even to traces on the circuit boards. If you open up a Luxman product you will find nothing particularly exotic or expenisve inside. Some companies earn their net profits by selling large quantities at reasonable margins and other earn it by selling small quantities at unreasonable margins. Luxman takes the latter approach. The brand gets a lot a laughter from some industry insiders. I can tell you that.

 

[3db]

Between the Denon and Bryston in this scenario, there is nothing gained by using the Bryston from a sound point of view. Probably a down grade but only because of the difference in power between the two boxes assuming the speakers how power hungry and ineffcient.


But make no mistake, Bryston has a much higher build quality then Denon and their warranty is proof of that. No other electronics manufacturer comes anywhere near the Bryston warranty including your $20Krells and whatever else you want to toss at it.

Bryston been known to repair products that 30 years old and still claim it as a warranty repair. Compare that to Denon's spotty customer satisfaction and I would say its a non brainer to go with Bryston over Denon. But like I said in this scenario, the Bryston (other than waranty) offers no advantage.

 

[wire]

Bryston been known to repair products that 30 years old and still claim it as a warranty repair. Compare that to Denon's spotty customer satisfaction and I would say its a non brainer to go with Bryston over Denon. But like I said in this scenario, the Bryston (other than waranty) offers no advantage.

Humm
Mine is about 23 years old , good to here .

 

[PENG]

I'm not sure I would go that far. Certainly both products produce audibly undistorted waveforms at the speaker terminals and certainly 20 wpc is plenty for listening to music in most small rooms. So I would say that, except in those situations where 20 wpc is not enough, they should sound the same. I can't imagine why the Luxman would sound better.

I should mention that Luxman is famous for making knockoffs of other people's designs - even to traces on the circuit boards. If you open up a Luxman product you will find nothing particularly exotic or expenisve inside. Some companies earn their net profits by selling large quantities at reasonable margins and other earn it by selling small quantities at unreasonable margins. Luxman takes the latter approach. The brand gets a lot a laughter from some industry insiders. I can tell you that.

I picked Luxman as an example only because I happened to have read a review on its 20W amp a few months ago in a Chapter/Indigo store and was amazed with what the reviewer said about this little 48 lbs amp could do. It was one of those high end audio magazines, probably the Absolute Sound, but I really can't remember if it was or not. This combined with the fact that I did listen to their amps years ago and I still remember how impressed I was at the time, was the reason I thought it might be possible that the reviewer wasn't saying nice things about that amp just because of the brand name.

Perhaps I should have used the 75W McIntosh MC275 power amp or the 75W MA2275 integrated as examples. That would have been less controversial, on this forum anyway because most of us around here seem to have great respects for McIntosh amps. Again, my only point is that in situation where you do not need much power, it is possible (let me emphasize, just possible) that some of those high end low power amps could sound better than a much more powerful mass market amps.

Edit: I did a quick search and found that the review I read at Chapter is not available on this site:

http://www.onahighernote.com/p_awards/?c=8&id=31

It was in fact the Absolute Sound. Please note that I am not asking you to believe in what the reviewer said. I found it believable only because I listened to some much older Luxman amps before and they managed to leave me with a lasting impression.

 

[SpeedDemon]

They are crazy.

You don't see any amp from Mark Levinson or Krell that is less than 100 watts per ch.

What can I say. Luxman sucks.

Nobody in their right minds would buy such a wussy sissy amp.

My diagnosis: they are just plain crazy.

Well... almost right!

The second amp Mark Levinson brought to market was the classic ML-2. 25 watt mono block. A 130 pound beast that operates in full Class-A and is linear into a 0.5 ohm load to bat! I still have a set of these and every once in a while I bring them out. It’s always amusing to see my electric bill after they are in my system for a few weeks. Between the idle current these puppies draw and the work my HVAC is doing to keep the room cool - well it's normally +$50 for one month’s use!

Still, as awsome as these amps sound, ADTG is somewhat right. Although this maybe the finest and most powerful example of a 25 watt amp in the history of audio - it's still just roughly 25 watts when the outputs momentarily and infrequently see 8 ohms. When the going gets really rough, my Krell 403 out spanks the ML-2 by a mile, but... the 403 is also linear into less than 2 ohms and a whole lot more easy to live with!

Sorry couldn't resist! Where's GDS when you need him!

 

[PENG]

They are crazy.

You don't see any amp from Mark Levinson or Krell that is less than 100 watts per ch.

What can I say. Luxman sucks.

Nobody in their right minds would buy such a wussy sissy amp.

My diagnosis: they are just plain crazy.

Did you listen to one, ever? I did, and I know they did not suck...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Did you listen to one, ever? I did, and I know they did not suck...

No, I have never even seen one.

For $5,000, they better sound great.

But I don't get it. 20-watts per channel for $5,000?

I just don't understand it.

I'm almost speechless.

Hey, I'm thinking of getting the 4308 for a few reasons - 4 HDMI Input, 2 HDMI Output, HD/XM/FM/AM Radio - among other features. Any other cool features I should know about?

 

[TLS Guy]

No, I have never even seen one.

For $5,000, they better sound great.

But I don't get it. 20-watts per channel for $5,000?

I just don't understand it.

I'm almost speechless.

Hey, I'm thinking of getting the 4308 for a few reasons - 4 HDMI Input, 2 HDMI Output, HD/XM/FM/AM Radio - among other features. Any other cool features I should know about?

Confused? Haven't you heard there is "one born every minute?"

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Confused? Haven't you heard there is "one born every minute?"

***hee**hee
Gotcha.

 

[PENG]

No, I have never even seen one.

For $5,000, they better sound great.

But I don't get it. 20-watts per channel for $5,000?

I just don't understand it.

I'm almost speechless.

Hey, I'm thinking of getting the 4308 for a few reasons - 4 HDMI Input, 2 HDMI Output, HD/XM/FM/AM Radio - among other features. Any other cool features I should know about?

Consider:

- Pure class A (inherently no crossover distortion)
- Integrated.
- 48 lbs.
- Double down (but you can play with the specs to show it. In this case specs: 20/40W 8/4ohms, tested: 78/114W 8/4 ohms by hifi world)
- I said 5K but it depends, may be less, depends on currency exhange rates.

http://www.onahighernote.com/p_awards/?c=8&id=31
http://www.onahighernote.com/luxman/?c=8&id=31

It really isn't that bad price wise, it is comparable to simiarly rated McIntosh amps.

Regarding the 4308, you obviously know all about its features. All I can tell you is that I really like the WIFI, I could update firmware and play with the netaudio stuff while working with my laptop, without having to run a long cat 5 cable and worry about hiding it.

The amps in the 4308 are actually quite robust but with all the amps you already have they will be wasted, not a good idea.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Luxman Integrated:

- Pure class A (inherently no crossover distortion)
- Integrated.
- 48 lbs.
- Double down (but you can play with the specs to show it. In this case specs: 20/40W 8/4ohms, tested: 78/114W 8/4 ohms by hifi world)

114W @ 4ohms isn't bad. I wish everyone would test all the amps @ 2 ohms and 1 ohm (TAC & Stereophile).

If it's 150w & 200w into 2 ohms & 1 ohm, respectively, that wouldn't be bad either.

I think that's the one thing people may overlook because most speakers are 8 ohms, instead of 2 ohms or even 1 ohm (MartinLogan).

I believe Stereophile tested a Krell Integrated (KAV400) and it could not handle 2 ohms or something.

If the Luxman can handle a 1 ohm speaker (my PMA is 400 watts into 1 ohm, TAC), then it's a great amp. I mean it would be better than an amp that is 200 watts into 8 ohms, but shuts off @ 2 ohm or 1 ohm.

So power Output is important, but power Current is also important.

Another limiting factor is the room's electrical circuit. My room is only 20A, but it's shared with the adjacent room, and I have way too many things plugged in. Not so good for me.

 

[PENG]

Another limiting factor is the room's electrical circuit. My room is only 20A, but it's shared with the adjacent room, and I have way too many things plugged in. Not so good for me.

With the gear you have, and for peace of mind, you really should run at least an independent 20 A circuit to feed your gear only. That being said, for DD/DTS/DTHD/DTSHD 5.1 stuff you should be fine. Even for 5.1 music DVDs you should be fine most of the time. If you have any doubt you can always turn everything off in the other room.

I assume that 12 AWG cable for the 20A circuit is not too long, say <50 feet.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

With the gear you have, and for peace of mind, you really should run at least an independent 20 A circuit to feed your gear only. That being said, for DD/DTS/DTHD/DTSHD 5.1 stuff you should be fine. Even for 5.1 music DVDs you should be fine most of the time. If you have any doubt you can always turn everything off in the other room.

I assume that 12 AWG cable for the 20A circuit is not too long, say <50 feet.

Yeah, I always have to watch my Panamax to see if it's in the Reds. Most of the time it's in the Green, so I guess I'm not using too much power like everyone says.

 

[wire]

In this case specs: 20/40W 8/4ohms, tested: 78/114W 8/4 ohms by hifi world)
.

That amp is a little underrated .
I also love my Tube Amp , its a great sounding amp . No where near the Luxman though .