Results are in - Monster XP vs Sonocable

[Spkr_Bldr]

That is where the rub is. There is no credible evidence to support your hypothesis here, zero. Urban legends abound, anecdotes abound, neither are credible evidence.

If that audibility was so easy, it would have been demonstrated a long time ago by many people.
As a matter of fact, an audiophile tried to claim James Randi's $1mil prize, and in preparation he agreed to be tested at his very expensive system at least 6 figures, special room, etc, Monster cable against his 5 figure cables. FAILED.

But, if you have some credible evidence that can be replicated, by all means, all of us are eager to see and know.

Actually, since you were at AVS or still are, you may have seen that post on that speaker cable testing.

I've been exactly where you are now ... and now I'm in the other camp. How did it change? Simple, experience. A few blind tests, experiments of my own, and enough to realize I was wrong. But without a base system capable of enough resolution, those tests would have been pointless, I wouldn't have noticed a bit of difference.

You're free to believe whatever you want, I don't sell speaker cables. And I have no desire to argue the issue with anybody. All I'm saying is I know from my own personal experience that my systems wouldn't be where they are now had I been closed to the possibility.

 

[zhimbo]

I've been exactly where you are now ... and now I'm in the other camp. How did it change? Simple, experience. A few blind tests, experiments of my own, and enough to realize I was wrong.

Depending on which cables you found a difference in, you can claim Randi's prize. Certainly if you think those Pear Anjou cables are the real deal, you can.

 

[fmw]

I know how things like cables are generally regarded on this site and avsforum. But my advice to you all is keep an open mind. It wasn't until pretty recently that I had a room and system with high enough overall resolution to tell the differences. Once I did though, differences can be immediate and obvious. I've also been hanging out with a lot of the local 2-channel guys, and we've done a few blind cable swap tests. RCA cables are easy to do quick swaps with, and I can usually spot differences in about 15 seconds.

I'm not telling anybody how to think, or to agree that cables can produce improvements. Just that is the search for true high-end really is your goal, then keep an open mind. Somebody down the road when you have the right system and room, you might just thank me.

In fact, it is the open mind that nurtures the placebo effect. I say what I say not because of my open mind or my opinions. I say it because I have actually done the bias controlled listening tests. Trust me, you would look far and wide to find an audible difference between two wires in an audio system and when you found it, at least one of the wires would have been engineered to color sound on purpose. My comments come from test results, not from opinion. Opinion, preference and bias is the whole problem with high end audio.

 

[3db]

As an electrical engineer who has studied signal propogation from light to microwave, the one thing I've learned is that it takes very high frequencies, in excess of MHz which is well beyond the audable frequncy range to have a cable have an affect on the signal. The only factors that could alter a signal in a conductor are reactive components such as distributed inductance and capacictance and parasytic inductance and capacitance. But these reactive components are neglible in audio frequencies and only become critical at the very high frequencies. So if an audio signal propogates thru the conductor unaltered, then there can be NO change in the sound.

Now if I could learn to type and spell

 

[Audioholics]

Shocked, I asked my girlfriend to come listen. We did not tell her what we were doing - just to listen and tell if there was a difference

I can't believe you actually said this... lol.

 

[gene]

About a week ago, I mentioned that I would be doing a comparison between my Monster Cable XP vs my friend's pricier Sonocable speaker wires. I did not believe that there would be a difference.

Although the methodology was flawed and may influence the results of my findings, please take it for what it is.

We first listened to the Sonocables, then Monster. I definitely heard a difference between the two. I was thinking of attributing this to the placebo effect until my friend described exactly what I was hearing - less detail in specific instruments at specific parts of a track. He also correctly mentioned that I probably was hearing a more muted/laid back sound and that the sound was "less-wide" than the Sonocables. We also both agreed that the Sonocables were brighter in sound.

Shocked, I asked my girlfriend to come listen. We did not tell her what we were doing - just to listen and tell if there was a difference, and if so, what she heard. She's been playing piano for over 10 years, and owns 2 pianos (inlcuding a $35K Steinway) and can hear the differences between pianos and can tell if the top is open or not by ear. She's not very good at describing the sound, but she's got a good ear.

She said that she heard a difference and like the first one better (Which was the Monster). We were a bit taken back and asked her why - She said the other (Sonocables) hurt her ears because they were too high pitched. She went on to describe the same thing that we heard. The only difference was that she preferred the sound of the Monster Cable.

I still couldn't believe this was happening - I was getting set to start the blind testing but then my amp's fuse blew.

A few things could have attributed to the differences:
- I have no idea what guage the Monster XP is. The Sono was 12AWG
- Tips of the Monster could have been corroded as they looked slightly discoloured.
- Different length of wire - about 8 ft. vs 10 ft. (shouldn't really be a big difference.)

Either way, I learned that I should trust what I hear, and ensure that I keep an open mind while thinking critically.

Unless you can instantaneously switch out the cables, you cannot rely on sonic memory to accurately determine if there are sonic differences between the two cables since at best they will be subtle.

I suggest you rerun this experiment with your girlfriend, but this time pretend to change out the cables while using the same cable all along. Then mix in actual cable swap outs every few times. Make sure she cannot see you messing with the cables.

If she cannot identify which cable sounds "better" 9 out of 10 trials, then its statistically insignificant.

 

[Bloodstriker]

I can't believe you actually said this... lol.

Huh?

Wait.. a .. secondddddd!!

 

[Bloodstriker]

Unless you can instantaneously switch out the cables, you cannot rely on sonic memory to accurately determine if there are sonic differences between the two cables since at best they will be subtle.

I suggest you rerun this experiment with your girlfriend, but this time pretend to change out the cables while using the same cable all along. Then mix in actual cable swap outs every few times. Make sure she cannot see you messing with the cables.

If she cannot identify which cable sounds "better" 9 out of 10 trials, then its statistically insignificant.

That's the plan for our next run - we we're going to do that this time, but my amp blew a fuse and I didn't have any replacements.

Of course, once I get the results, I'll inform everybody.

 

[j_garcia]

I've used XP (which is right around 16AWG) for years for my surrounds. I now use some in-wall wire that is 14AWG and I hear no difference. I have used Monster X-1S for years on my mains as well and noboby has ever question how well my system sounds.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That's the plan for our next run - we we're going to do that this time, but my amp blew a fuse and I didn't have any replacements.

Of course, once I get the results, I'll inform everybody.

Did you wonder why your amp blew a fuse?

It's telling you NOT to do any more wire testing!!!

I've blown a couple of amp fuses myself in the past when messing around with speaker wires. Just don't do it!

Keep those speaker wires in place and leave them alone!

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Definitely placebo.

 

[Shicks18]

We first listened to the Sonocables, then Monster.


She said that she heard a difference and like the first one better (Which was the Monster).

I'm a little confused here, you said the Sonocables first and you also said she liked the first one better.... wouldn't that be the Sonocables??

 

[mtrycrafts]

Now if I could learn to type and spell

Google spell check is your friend, if you use it

 

[Bloodstriker]

I'm a little confused here, you said the Sonocables first and you also said she liked the first one better.... wouldn't that be the Sonocables??

Sorry about the confusion. There were three people including myself. The first test was me and my friend. The Sonocables were first in this one.

The second test was just my girlfriend listening and my friend swapping the cables. The Monster was first in this one.

I'm still undetermined on this one. Imagined or not, all three of us definitely perceived a difference between the two cables. Remember - I'm still having ruled out the possibility that my cables are corroded at the ends (they're a little green).

 

[mtrycrafts]

I've been exactly where you are now ... and now I'm in the other camp. How did it change? Simple, experience. A few blind tests, experiments of my own, and enough to realize I was wrong. But without a base system capable of enough resolution, those tests would have been pointless, I wouldn't have noticed a bit of difference.

You're free to believe whatever you want, I don't sell speaker cables. And I have no desire to argue the issue with anybody. All I'm saying is I know from my own personal experience that my systems wouldn't be where they are now had I been closed to the possibility.

Belief has nothing to do with it. What can be demonstrated, repeatedly does.

Your experience and protocols are indeed suspect as no one has been able to replicate your results in a credible test in 30+ years. Something has to give and I suspect your protocol to be unreliable no matter how you slice it.
And, that base system excuse is just that.
A golden ear, a million dollar system and room setup could not help him audibly differentiate his wires from a Monster cable.

 

[fmw]

Unless you can instantaneously switch out the cables, you cannot rely on sonic memory to accurately determine if there are sonic differences between the two cables since at best they will be subtle.

I suggest you rerun this experiment with your girlfriend, but this time pretend to change out the cables while using the same cable all along. Then mix in actual cable swap outs every few times. Make sure she cannot see you messing with the cables.

If she cannot identify which cable sounds "better" 9 out of 10 trials, then its statistically insignificant.

There you go. You need to eliminate bias completely. You can provide no clues at all to the identity of the test subject. And you need enough random iterations to develop a statistically significant score. You need to do the same things exactly with each iteration. Unplug the cables and plug them in whether the random schedule calls for the same cable or a different one. Take the same amount of time on every iteration. No clues at all.

You don't even need to have better or worse. What we do in our tests is put product A in place and tell the listener this is product A. Then we do the same thing with product B. After that we begin the random iterations blind only asking the listener to id whether the test subject is A or B. It isn't a qualitative judgement at all. Just a simple ID. We score the ID right or wrong. If the results after 15 or 20 iterations is around 50% right or wrong, then we know it is random and there is no audible difference. If we get 60 % either right or wrong then we begin to believe there is probably a subtle audible difference because that is a statistically significant result. At 70% or higher there is a meaningful audible difference.

Good to see someone doing bias controlled listening tests. Good luck with it.

 

[mtrycrafts]

That's the plan for our next run - we we're going to do that this time, but my amp blew a fuse and I didn't have any replacements.

Of course, once I get the results, I'll inform everybody.

Don't inform the listener of their guessing success or failure until after all the trials for that person
Another, as gene suggested not swapping, not swapping for the whole 10 runs and see what their written answers are at the end.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...and noboby has ever question how well my system sounds.

Maybe I should question it now
How does it sound?

 

[mtrycrafts]

..
It's telling you NOT to do any more wire testing!!!

LOL, killing me

 

[Spkr_Bldr]

Well, I'll be honest I've never done a blind A/B test with speaker cables ... it's just too much hassle in most people's systems, and much more likely to short something out in haste to switch cables. I have done a few with interconnects though, and every time I identified the 'good' cable correctly within seconds. What was immediately apparent to me in those tests is the edges of the soundstage shrink inward somewhat.